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I just got the Tau Codex, so I'm a bit late to this rules debate, but one thing I wanted to ask (which most people aren't debating over - probably because its obvious) is whether or not the coordinated firepower shot is done at the selected units BS, or the most common BS of all the units firing. For example:

I select commander (BS5) to fire at an enemy,
he's supported by 2 other units of fire warriors (BS3),
does this mean the shoot is done at fire warriors BS or Commanders?
Answer seems to be Commanders, but it just seems very strong being able to essentially shoot your entire army at bs5

I'm aware this has probably been answered somewhere, but it's so hard to find among the rest of the rule debate.

Thanks for your help!

Each firing model uses its very own BS

this means the Comander uses for his shots his own BS +1 and the Fire Warriors uses theis BS + 1 for their shots.

Unless otherwise stated, models always use their own Ballistic Skill for their own shooting.

What is REALLY Fun is abusing CFP with Fire Team rules & Target Locks.

 carldooley wrote:
What is REALLY Fun is abusing CFP with Fire Team rules & Target Locks.

It's not really abuse. Saying abuse implies that you're doing something wrong. This is no more wrong or evil than taking hundreds of points of free upgrades in a War Convocation or getting hundreds of points of free Transports in a Space Marines army. Is it strong? Sure. Is it too strong? Time will tell, but probably not. The meta shifts too quickly these days for any one trick to reign supreme for long.

Target Locks have been a solid tactic in large units ever since Farsight's bodyguard team was allowed to take them, so that's nothing new.

 Kriswall wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
What is REALLY Fun is abusing CFP with Fire Team rules & Target Locks.

It's not really abuse. Saying abuse implies that you're doing something wrong. This is no more wrong or evil than taking hundreds of points of free upgrades in a War Convocation or getting hundreds of points of free Transports in a Space Marines army. Is it strong? Sure. Is it too strong? Time will tell, but probably not. The meta shifts too quickly these days for any one trick to reign supreme for long.

Target Locks have been a solid tactic in large units ever since Farsight's bodyguard team was allowed to take them, so that's nothing new.

What carldooley is likely referring to is giving yourself the +1 BS for CFP while utilizing the Target Lock aspect of it with split-firing off from an attack that requires you to shoot at a specific target.

Hmm what? Are we now discussing RAW or how ITC ruled it?

There is no ambiguity in the rule by RAW.

Naw wrote:
Hmm what? Are we now discussing RAW or how ITC ruled it?

There is no ambiguity in the rule by RAW.

Except the problem is that, like carldooley posted, there are people making the argument that CFP's rule applies to Target Lock as well.

Hence "abuse".

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 carldooley wrote:
What is REALLY Fun is abusing CFP with Fire Team rules & Target Locks.

It's not really abuse. Saying abuse implies that you're doing something wrong. This is no more wrong or evil than taking hundreds of points of free upgrades in a War Convocation or getting hundreds of points of free Transports in a Space Marines army. Is it strong? Sure. Is it too strong? Time will tell, but probably not. The meta shifts too quickly these days for any one trick to reign supreme for long.

Target Locks have been a solid tactic in large units ever since Farsight's bodyguard team was allowed to take them, so that's nothing new.

What carldooley is likely referring to is giving yourself the +1 BS for CFP while utilizing the Target Lock aspect of it with split-firing off from an attack that requires you to shoot at a specific target.

I understood. My comment stands. Getting buffs from a Buffmander while using a Target Lock to shoot at a different target isn't fundamentally different from getting +1BS for CFP while using a Target Lock. You're getting a buff for being part of a unit while not shooting at that unit's target.

And to be clear, individual models aren't required to shoot at a specific target to gain a buff. The unit does. Individual models with Target Locks are free to shoot at whomever they want, but all other models (if there are any) in the unit would need to shoot at the "main" target.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:
Hmm what? Are we now discussing RAW or how ITC ruled it?

There is no ambiguity in the rule by RAW.

Except the problem is that, like carldooley posted, there are people making the argument that CFP's rule applies to Target Lock as well.

Hence "abuse".

Using a Target Lock doesn't somehow mean a model doesn't benefit from rules applied to his unit.

People may not like the RaW of this and tournaments may vote to institute RaW changing house rules, but the reality is that the RaW is pretty clear in this instance.

Relatively few people are saying "how does this work". Most people who are commenting are saying either "this is overpowered" or "this is no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades".

 Kriswall wrote:

Using a Target Lock doesn't somehow mean a model doesn't benefit from rules applied to his unit.

When the rule(with a name that is specifically intended to conjure the idea of "everyone shoot at this target!") specifically states that the Coordinated Firepower attack requires all the units making up the attack to be firing at the same target?

Yeah, I'd say it is pretty safe to assume it clearly is not intended to apply to Target Lock. But hey, what can you do when people want to abuse crap like that?

People may not like the RaW of this and tournaments may vote to institute RaW changing house rules, but the reality is that the RaW is pretty clear in this instance.

Actually it's not. RaW, if it were clear, would say that "models with Target Locks may fire at other units while still benefiting". It doesn't say that. Your entire argument is predicated upon something not being specifically disallowed.

Relatively few people are saying "how does this work". Most people who are commenting are saying either "this is overpowered" or "this is no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades".

Yeah, and anyone who says that this is "no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades" are looking at it with their "I got stomped by X because of their free Y" filter in place.
Free upgrades in a War Convocation requires you to take a very strict grouping of models, with the Cult Mechanicus portion being the only really flexible portion.
"Free transports" in a Space Marine detachment requires you to take two Battle Demi-Companies and models that can actually take those transports to begin with. Any additional stuff on the transports still costs you points.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Using a Target Lock doesn't somehow mean a model doesn't benefit from rules applied to his unit.

When the rule(with a name that is specifically intended to conjure the idea of "everyone shoot at this target!") specifically states that the Coordinated Firepower attack requires all the units making up the attack to be firing at the same target?

Yeah, I'd say it is pretty safe to assume it clearly is not intended to apply to Target Lock. But hey, what can you do when people want to abuse crap like that?

People may not like the RaW of this and tournaments may vote to institute RaW changing house rules, but the reality is that the RaW is pretty clear in this instance.

Actually it's not. RaW, if it were clear, would say that "models with Target Locks may fire at other units while still benefiting". It doesn't say that. Your entire argument is predicated upon something not being specifically disallowed.

Relatively few people are saying "how does this work". Most people who are commenting are saying either "this is overpowered" or "this is no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades".

Yeah, and anyone who says that this is "no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades" are looking at it with their "I got stomped by X because of their free Y" filter in place.
Free upgrades in a War Convocation requires you to take a very strict grouping of models, with the Cult Mechanicus portion being the only really flexible portion.
"Free transports" in a Space Marine detachment requires you to take two Battle Demi-Companies and models that can actually take those transports to begin with. Any additional stuff on the transports still costs you points.

1. Target Locks don't modify in any way, shape of form who the unit is shooting at. The UNIT is still shooting at the required target. I feel like you're confusing unit and model. This is a common mistake I see in rules debates.

2. I guess some people will always think something is unclear. Unit A gets +1BS if it chooses to participate in a massed shooting attack at Target A. Shas'vre Fred's unit chooses to participate in this attack, so he, as a member of that unit, gets +1BS. During the attack Shas'vre Fred activates his Target Lock and fires at Target B. At no point is his unit NOT firing at Target A. The buff stands. The permission is there. There is no requirement for all models in a unit to fire at the unit's chosen target to benefit from the +1BS. Models with a Target Lock in a unit with a Buffmander still benefit from the Buffmander's buffs. How is this different? This isn't a target issue. It's a model vs. unit issue. The unit (and by extension, it's member models) gets the buff regardless of an individual model's ability to select a secondary target.

3. So you agree that the RaW isn't really in dispute? I agree with you that people who are complaining about fairness are doing so because it makes the game harder/easier and not because of a RaW issue.

It feels like a lot of people are arguing intent here.

'It's not fair and clearly abusing a loophole to allow a Target Lock model to get +1BS when shooting at some other target. The author's couldn't possibly have intended this sort of abusive cheese to exist.' Insert dramatic eye roll here.

I could just as easily say that this makes perfect sense. The Decurion buff could easily represent a networked targeting grid, enhancing the targeting capabilities of all participating units. Using a Target Lock wouldn't disconnect someone from that enhanced targeting grid. The Target Lock guy is just using that enhanced processing power to shoot at a secondary target. The more targeting data you have, the better.

Kriswall there are two main points of contention.
When do you declare the target for any model using it's target lock?
When do you declare units are combining their fire?

There are a few different ways of looking at this.
1. Combined fire happens when declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. This leads to you being able to shoot at different units via target locks.
2. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock triggers when you resolve that specific model's shooting attack. In this case (again) Target lock is OK.
3. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. In this scenario there is no chance to use Target Lock as the time for declaration is already past.

The biggest problem is no matter how you argue the rules it will not be RAW because the rules do not cover shooting multiple targets from a single unit (with the sole exception of Split Fire).

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall there are two main points of contention.
When do you declare the target for any model using it's target lock?
When do you declare units are combining their fire?

There are a few different ways of looking at this.
1. Combined fire happens when declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. This leads to you being able to shoot at different units via target locks.
2. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock triggers when you resolve that specific model's shooting attack. In this case (again) Target lock is OK.
3. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. In this scenario there is no chance to use Target Lock as the time for declaration is already past.

The biggest problem is no matter how you argue the rules it will not be RAW because the rules do not cover shooting multiple targets from a single unit (with the sole exception of Split Fire).

What are you talking about? Target Locks have always worked the exact same way. AFTER you have declared which unit you are firing at, you are allowed to have ANY MODEL equipped with a target lock fire at a different target then its group. It does not matter when it occurs, as it occurs simultaneously with CFP.

You are thinking WAY too far into this just for the sake of arguing. CFP only requires UNITS firing at the same target. Then Target Lock allows any MODEL equipped with it to fire at a different target than its unit, that doesn't stop the unit from still participating in CFP

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:
Hmm what? Are we now discussing RAW or how ITC ruled it?

There is no ambiguity in the rule by RAW.

Except the problem is that, like carldooley posted, there are people making the argument that CFP's rule applies to Target Lock as well.

Hence "abuse".

Why would it not apply to target lock?

Case A: 1 unit of 9 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander. Are you saying that they do not benefit here?

Case 2: 3 units of 3 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander using CFP. Why would they not benefit here?

I apologize for bringing up the wonky rules interpretations. My point was that utilizing Fire Team would effectively increase the BS by 2 of any Monstrous Creatures or Vehicles in the combined fire shooting event, provided there were either (exactly, ala the RaW of the rule) 3 vehicles or 3 monstrous creatures with the rule in the combined shots.

The point was that 3 riptide solo suits could conceivably get a significant buff to their shooting only by saying they were shooting together, then utilizing the Target Locks to shoot at anything that they want to. Then, if the controlling player chose to, any vehicles that contributed would get the +2BS buff too.

Looked at it one way, it is an excellent reason why they didn't bring back the Target Lock for vehicles.

**edit** and seriously, people are okay saying that Target Locks work when shooting normally but mysteriously stop working when using CFP fire protocols? **edit**

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, and anyone who says that this is "no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades" are looking at it with their "I got stomped by X because of their free Y" filter in place.
Free upgrades in a War Convocation requires you to take a very strict grouping of models, with the Cult Mechanicus portion being the only really flexible portion.
"Free transports" in a Space Marine detachment requires you to take two Battle Demi-Companies and models that can actually take those transports to begin with. Any additional stuff on the transports still costs you points.

Anyone who does so is taking advantage of the buffs 'unlocked' by their formation. So are we (Tau Empire players). And we get nothing for free - we have to pay for every buff that we take, both in that there is 'a strict grouping of models' that we HAVE to take, and that anything outside the detachment cannot benefit or contribute.

Naw wrote:

Why would it not apply to target lock?

Case A: 1 unit of 9 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander. Are you saying that they do not benefit here?

Case 2: 3 units of 3 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander using CFP. Why would they not benefit here?

Why WOULD it apply to Target Lock?

You're making a COORDINATED FIREPOWER attack, where all units have to fire at the same target. Additionally, your Buffmander can't participate unless he's a part of a unit because you're required to make a shooting attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 carldooley wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, and anyone who says that this is "no more overpowered than free Transports and upgrades" are looking at it with their "I got stomped by X because of their free Y" filter in place.
Free upgrades in a War Convocation requires you to take a very strict grouping of models, with the Cult Mechanicus portion being the only really flexible portion.
"Free transports" in a Space Marine detachment requires you to take two Battle Demi-Companies and models that can actually take those transports to begin with. Any additional stuff on the transports still costs you points.

Anyone who does so is taking advantage of the buffs 'unlocked' by their formation. So are we (Tau Empire players). And we get nothing for free - we have to pay for every buff that we take, both in that there is 'a strict grouping of models' that we HAVE to take, and that anything outside the detachment cannot benefit or contribute.

Anyone who says that Coordinated Firepower is on the same level as War Convocation granting free weapon upgrades to Skitarii(where they'll really only be applied to the two infantry units in the form of a Ranger and Vanguard squad getting special weapons for a not stupid price), a single Oathsworn Knight detachment, and whatever Cult Mechanicus stuff you bring (where basically all unit upgrades are free or dirt cheap to begin with) or a pair of Space Marine Battle Demi-Companies getting "free" Drop Pods, Razorbacks, or Rhinos for their Tacticals, Devastator Squads, or Assault Squad minus Jump Packs is drastically mistaken or has not actually read any of those books to see what options the Skitarii/Cult units have or what a pair of Battle Demi-Companies actually consists of.

Coordinated Firepower is heads and shoulders above those benefits. You have a Detachment wide boost to your Ballistic Skill simply for doing what most people do against key units anyways: put down weight of fire.
Add to it the ability to take advantage of Markerlight benefits and CFP is damn near on par with the Necron decurion benefits for an army that is tailored strictly to take advantage of it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:

Why would it not apply to target lock?

Case A: 1 unit of 9 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander. Are you saying that they do not benefit here?

Case 2: 3 units of 3 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander using CFP. Why would they not benefit here?

Why WOULD it apply to Target Lock?

You're making a COORDINATED FIREPOWER attack, where all units have to fire at the same target. Additionally, your Buffmander can't participate unless he's a part of a unit because you're required to make a shooting attack.

And the units are shooting at the same target. What they do with target locks are an entirely different matter. That allows models to shoot at different target than their unit. It's there in the rules, please do look it up.

Your failure to understand the difference of units and models has been noted. Also you don't seem to realize how target lock works. Please refer to the example of 9 crisis suits and a single buffmander. And FYI, a model can choose not to shoot, it's actually written in the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Coordinated Firepower is heads and shoulders above those benefits. You have a Detachment wide boost to your Ballistic Skill simply for doing what most people do against key units anyways: put down weight of fire.

Aha, so your beef is that it is too strong, not that it's not played correctly. That has no room in a rules discussion, although your opinion has been noted.

Naw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:

Why would it not apply to target lock?

Case A: 1 unit of 9 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander. Are you saying that they do not benefit here?

Case 2: 3 units of 3 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander using CFP. Why would they not benefit here?

Why WOULD it apply to Target Lock?

You're making a COORDINATED FIREPOWER attack, where all units have to fire at the same target. Additionally, your Buffmander can't participate unless he's a part of a unit because you're required to make a shooting attack.

And the units are shooting at the same target. What they do with target locks are an entirely different matter. That allows models to shoot at different target than their unit. It's there in the rules, please do look it up.

I understand what Target Locks do. Thanks for that.

Your failure to understand the difference of units and models has been noted. Also you don't seem to realize how target lock works.

And your failure to understand how the Coordinated Firepower rule works has been noted. Unless specifically permitted, you're not allowed.

Please refer to the example of 9 crisis suits and a single buffmander. And FYI, a model can choose not to shoot, it's actually written in the rules.

A unit MUST shoot to participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.

So please, read what the rule requires. "Must make a shooting attack" does not mean "You can make a shooting attack but then decide at the last second 'Nah, I don't want to'." The part written in the rules applies specifically to models as part of a unit, hence the statement I made.

Coordinated Firepower is heads and shoulders above those benefits. You have a Detachment wide boost to your Ballistic Skill simply for doing what most people do against key units anyways: put down weight of fire.

Aha, so your beef is that it is too strong, not that it's not played correctly. That has no room in a rules discussion, although your opinion has been noted.

My "beef" is that Tau players piss and moan about their rules not being strong and then whine when someone brings them to task for trying to wiggle their way into a RAW v. RAI argument that works in their favor because of ambiguous rules.

And seeing as how everyone is basically doing HIWPI rather than RAW, my opinion is just as valid as any of the other garbage espoused in this thread by Tau players.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Naw wrote:

Why would it not apply to target lock?

Case A: 1 unit of 9 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander. Are you saying that they do not benefit here?

Case 2: 3 units of 3 crisis suits with target locks and a buffmander using CFP. Why would they not benefit here?

Why WOULD it apply to Target Lock?

You're making a COORDINATED FIREPOWER attack, where all units have to fire at the same target. Additionally, your Buffmander can't participate unless he's a part of a unit because you're required to make a shooting attack.

And the units are shooting at the same target. What they do with target locks are an entirely different matter. That allows models to shoot at different target than their unit. It's there in the rules, please do look it up.

I understand what Target Locks do. Thanks for that.

Your failure to understand the difference of units and models has been noted. Also you don't seem to realize how target lock works.

And your failure to understand how the Coordinated Firepower rule works has been noted. Unless specifically permitted, you're not allowed.

Please refer to the example of 9 crisis suits and a single buffmander. And FYI, a model can choose not to shoot, it's actually written in the rules.

A unit MUST shoot to participate in a Coordinated Firepower attack.

So please, read what the rule requires. "Must make a shooting attack" does not mean "You can make a shooting attack but then decide at the last second 'Nah, I don't want to'." The part written in the rules applies specifically to models as part of a unit, hence the statement I made.

Coordinated Firepower is heads and shoulders above those benefits. You have a Detachment wide boost to your Ballistic Skill simply for doing what most people do against key units anyways: put down weight of fire.

Aha, so your beef is that it is too strong, not that it's not played correctly. That has no room in a rules discussion, although your opinion has been noted.

My "beef" is that Tau players piss and moan about their rules not being strong and then whine when someone brings them to task for trying to wiggle their way into a RAW v. RAI argument that works in their favor because of ambiguous rules.

And seeing as how everyone is basically doing HIWPI rather than RAW, my opinion is just as valid as any of the other garbage espoused in this thread by Tau players.

lol you still don't understand how Target Locks work obviously

EVERY single model can use a target lock and shoot at a different target, that does not stop the unit from still firing at the original target.

Read the rules on a shooting attacks. You are allowed to make a shooting attack and decide not to fire; but you are still making a shooting attack

 Kanluwen wrote:
Unless specifically permitted, you're not allowed.

You mean with things called 'Target Lock'?

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall there are two main points of contention.
When do you declare the target for any model using it's target lock?
When do you declare units are combining their fire?

There are a few different ways of looking at this.
1. Combined fire happens when declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. This leads to you being able to shoot at different units via target locks.
2. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock triggers when you resolve that specific model's shooting attack. In this case (again) Target lock is OK.
3. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. In this scenario there is no chance to use Target Lock as the time for declaration is already past.

The biggest problem is no matter how you argue the rules it will not be RAW because the rules do not cover shooting multiple targets from a single unit (with the sole exception of Split Fire).

What are you talking about? Target Locks have always worked the exact same way. AFTER you have declared which unit you are firing at, you are allowed to have ANY MODEL equipped with a target lock fire at a different target then its group. It does not matter when it occurs, as it occurs simultaneously with CFP.

You are thinking WAY too far into this just for the sake of arguing. CFP only requires UNITS firing at the same target. Then Target Lock allows any MODEL equipped with it to fire at a different target than its unit, that doesn't stop the unit from still participating in CFP

When do you nominate a target?
When do you nominate a target for a model shooting at a different target than his unit?
When do you decide to combine fire?

Please back all answers with either a quote or page reference.

 Happyjew wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
Kriswall there are two main points of contention.
When do you declare the target for any model using it's target lock?
When do you declare units are combining their fire?

There are a few different ways of looking at this.
1. Combined fire happens when declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. This leads to you being able to shoot at different units via target locks.
2. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock triggers when you resolve that specific model's shooting attack. In this case (again) Target lock is OK.
3. Combined fire happens after declaring a target and Target Lock happens when declaring a target. In this scenario there is no chance to use Target Lock as the time for declaration is already past.

The biggest problem is no matter how you argue the rules it will not be RAW because the rules do not cover shooting multiple targets from a single unit (with the sole exception of Split Fire).

What are you talking about? Target Locks have always worked the exact same way. AFTER you have declared which unit you are firing at, you are allowed to have ANY MODEL equipped with a target lock fire at a different target then its group. It does not matter when it occurs, as it occurs simultaneously with CFP.

You are thinking WAY too far into this just for the sake of arguing. CFP only requires UNITS firing at the same target. Then Target Lock allows any MODEL equipped with it to fire at a different target than its unit, that doesn't stop the unit from still participating in CFP

When do you nominate a target?
When do you nominate a target for a model shooting at a different target than his unit?
When do you decide to combine fire?

Please back all answers with either a quote or page reference.

IT DOES NOT MATTER.

That is the point you are not understanding.

You do CFP like you normally would, then Target Lock allows a MODEL to shoot at something different.

Again, I advice you to actually read the rules on Target lock before posting again.

You shoot with unit A
Units B and C join Unit A via CFP
Models in Unit A, B, or C use Target Locks to shoot at a separate unit then the rest of A, B, and C.

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

notredameguy10 wrote:

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

Cite a page for Kauyon/Tau Empire that states Coordinated Firepower allows for Target Locking models to gain the Ballistic Skill bonus.

Please answer the following:
Regarding CFP:
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A. Unit B and C join in)
2) Nominate a target. (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
2.5) Units B and C join in.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Regarding Target Lock
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot
2) Nominate a target. (Unit is shooting at X. Model B is using Target Lock to shoot at Y.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon. etc
4) repeat from step 2 with the next model

 Kanluwen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

Cite a page for Kauyon/Tau Empire that states Coordinated Firepower allows for Target Locking models to gain the Ballistic Skill bonus.

How about the fact that it says "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill".

Are 3 UNITS firing at the same target? Yup
It does not matter if models from the unit are firing at a different target. As long as the UNITS are firing at the same target, all the MODELS get the +1 BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please answer the following:
Regarding CFP:
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A. Unit B and C join in)
2) Nominate a target. (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
2.5) Units B and C join in.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Regarding Target Lock
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot
2) Nominate a target. (Unit is shooting at X. Model B is using Target Lock to shoot at Y.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon. etc
4) repeat from step 2 with the next model

I pick Unit A to Fire at Unit X. Units B and C join via CFP. This means units A, B, and C are now firing as if one unit. Then via target locks working exactly as they have for the past 10 years, I choose to have models in my unit fire at a different target then the rest of the unit.

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

Cite a page for Kauyon/Tau Empire that states Coordinated Firepower allows for Target Locking models to gain the Ballistic Skill bonus.

How about the fact that it says "When 3 or more units combine their firepower, the firing models add 1 to their Ballistic Skill".

Are 3 UNITS firing at the same target? Yup
It does not matter if models from the unit are firing at a different target. As long as the UNITS are firing at the same target, all the MODELS get the +1 BS


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Happyjew wrote:
Please answer the following:
Regarding CFP:
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A. Unit B and C join in)
2) Nominate a target. (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
2.5) Units B and C join in.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Regarding Target Lock
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot
2) Nominate a target. (Unit is shooting at X. Model B is using Target Lock to shoot at Y.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon. etc
4) repeat from step 2 with the next model

I pick Unit A to Fire at Unit X. Units B and C join via CFP. Then via target locks working exactly as they have for the past 10 years, I choose to have models in my unit fire at a different target then the rest of the unit.

So for both, A or B? If you are claiming it is neither then please give a rundown of the shooting sequence for both scenarios. Also note I'm not asking at the moment how Target Lock and CFP work together. I'm looking at individual components first.

notredameguy10 wrote:EVERY single model can use a target lock and shoot at a different target, that does not stop the unit from still firing at the original target.

Read the rules on a shooting attacks. You are allowed to make a shooting attack and decide not to fire; but you are still making a shooting attack

Actually, it does for CFP. If all the models shoot something else, the unit does not actually shoot at its originally declared target. So, at least one model must not use Target Lock AND Shoot at the target in order to gain the full benefit.

Kanluwen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

Cite a page for Kauyon/Tau Empire that states Coordinated Firepower allows for Target Locking models to gain the Ballistic Skill bonus.

Cite the page where they are excluded. The unit must shoot at the target, and the models receive the benefit. It does not state that the models must all shoot at the target, just the organization known as "the unit".

Happyjew wrote:Please answer the following:
Regarding CFP:
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A. Unit B and C join in)
2) Nominate a target. (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
2.5) Units B and C join in.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

If I remember the language from the rule, it is closer to Method B, but I could be misremembering.

Happyjew wrote:Regarding Target Lock
Is it Method A, B or something else entirely?
Method A)
1) Choose a unit to shoot
2) Nominate a target. (Unit is shooting at X. Model B is using Target Lock to shoot at Y.
3) Choose a weapon, etc.

Method B)
1) Choose a unit to shoot (I choose Unit A)
2) Nominate a target (I'm targeting X)
3) Choose a weapon. etc
4) repeat from step 2 with the next model

Unlike Split Fire, Target Lock actually does not state when the target of the Locking model chooses his target. However, to maintain proper Weapon Selection order, it must be before any Weapon it is going to be shooting must be declared, as it does not change this process.

This is what we're told for Target Lock...

"A model with a target lock can shoot at a different target to the rest of his unit."

There is absolutely no guidance on when exactly we make the decision to choose targets. The simplest interpretation is that both choosing to add units to a CFP action AND choosing a separate target for a Target Lock could happen at the same time. If we go with that interpretation, the player whose turn it is gets to pick what happens first.

Ultimately, without guidance, we're in house rule territory. Target Locks have 'worked' since their inception, so it's silly to think that they'll magically stop working now since some people are a little butt hurt that the shootiest and techiest army is using tech to get better at shooting.

 Kanluwen wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Its quite simple and you are just being too dense to see it

Cite a page for Kauyon/Tau Empire that states Coordinated Firepower allows for Target Locking models to gain the Ballistic Skill bonus.

It doesn't matter that we quote rules accurately, you keep ignoring the evidence on a feel basis. I don't need to turn your head, keep playing it incorrectly and force Tau players to follow your house rules. That is not how the rest of the world plays it.

As long as you keep ignoring how models vs units work you will come up nonsense and try to gain credibility by pointing at ITC's vote. I can arrange a vote in my area and we will come with something else.

I'm done trying to explain this to you from a mobile device, I just don't have the time or energy for it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or to fix spelling above :-o

Charistoph - that is what I'm trying to get notredameguy to understand.

If Target Lock happens when you nominate your target(s), and if CFP happens after target declaration, then only the initial unit would be able to use their target locks, as by the time the other units join in, you are past that point.

I'm not saying that Target Locks don't work. I'm saying is the rules don't tell us how (or when) to shoot at a different target then the unit and you must use houserules to govern it.