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 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph - that is what I'm trying to get notredameguy to understand.

If Target Lock happens when you nominate your target(s), and if CFP happens after target declaration, then only the initial unit would be able to use their target locks, as by the time the other units join in, you are past that point.

I'm not saying that Target Locks don't work. I'm saying is the rules don't tell us how (or when) to shoot at a different target then the unit and you must use houserules to govern it.

This isn't Magic the Gathering. We don't always have a rigorous stack of timed effects we can slowly unravel and interrupt with different effects. Target Lock says that a MODEL can shoot at a different target. This necessarily has to happen AFTER the UNIT selects its target. After all, if the UNIT hasn't selected its target yet, how can a MODEL say it's going to shoot at something else? Hence, initial target, add CFP units and THEN select Target Lock targets.

So... it seems that the most reasonable interpretation is as follows.

1. Unit A decides to shoot at Target X.
2. Units B and C say "Oh, yeah, we're also shooting at Target X" as part of a Coordinated Firepower action.
3. Models D, E and F all pipe up with "Hey, we all have Target Locks that we'll be using to shoot at our own targets, thank you very much".

All models in all units taking part in the CFP action get +1BS. So, Models D, E and F above all get +1BS.

This is the most reasonable interpretation, based mainly on how Target Lock has worked since it was introduced.

 Happyjew wrote:
Charistoph - that is what I'm trying to get notredameguy to understand.

If Target Lock happens when you nominate your target(s), and if CFP happens after target declaration, then only the initial unit would be able to use their target locks, as by the time the other units join in, you are past that point.

I'm not saying that Target Locks don't work. I'm saying is the rules don't tell us how (or when) to shoot at a different target then the unit and you must use houserules to govern it.

There is a rule that says the controlling player chooses the timing if there is a conflict/events occur simultaneously. Why would it not work here as was previously written?

Cfp, target lock, and initial target selection are all simultaneous.

We have a clear order of operations in the shooting phase.
Step 1: choose firing unit.
Step 2: select target. At this point both target lock and cfp rules come into play. Cfp specifies this(first sentence of the rule), and target lock infers it(model may fire at a different target, but targeting happens now).

While there is a bit of a clear unit target should happen first(otherwise target lock would be working backwards: the unit would be firing at a different target from the model... S ok rt of.); all 3 are simultaneous, and what do the rules say about simultaneous actions?

That's right; active player's choice of resolution.

So any/all tau players should be choosing: first unit targets, cfp, assign targets to all models with target locks.


That is the most basic RAW. But there is another interpretation: "all units must fire at the same target". This does not specifically forbid the use of target locks or GC splitting fire; but it could be read to imply it. I would not mind playing under the condition that if I want to share great buffs across several units along with increased bs then I cannot use certain special rules that counter the fluff concept(but then I like fluffy rules).

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Cfp, target lock, and initial target selection are all simultaneous.

We have a clear order of operations in the shooting phase.
Step 1: choose firing unit.
Step 2: select target. At this point both target lock and cfp rules come into play. Cfp specifies this(first sentence of the rule), and target lock infers it(model may fire at a different target, but targeting happens now).

While there is a bit of a clear unit target should happen first(otherwise target lock would be working backwards: the unit would be firing at a different target from the model... S ok rt of.); all 3 are simultaneous, and what do the rules say about simultaneous actions?

That's right; active player's choice of resolution.

So any/all tau players should be choosing: first unit targets, cfp, assign targets to all models with target locks.


That is the most basic RAW. But there is another interpretation: "all units must fire at the same target". This does not specifically forbid the use of target locks or GC splitting fire; but it could be read to imply it. I would not mind playing under the condition that if I want to share great buffs across several units along with increased bs then I cannot use certain special rules that counter the fluff concept(but then I like fluffy rules).

There is no implication that target locks or split fire scenarios are forbidden. Neither scenario prevents the UNIT from firing at the same target, which is the only real requirement. Any perceived implication is in the mind of the reader. The written word doesn't support such a thing.

But you're right. The loosest interpretation is that all of these things happen simultaneously, in which case, the Tau player gets to pick the order.

"These units must shoot at the same target..."୸

I didn't say that the above was a strict reading, I said it could be interpreted to imply that target lock and GC rules cannot be used to target any other units.

I also said that I would be okay with playing it that way from a fluff standpoint, not that it is a set rule.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
"These units must shoot at the same target..."୸

I didn't say that the above was a strict reading, I said it could be interpreted to imply that target lock and GC rules cannot be used to target any other units.

I also said that I would be okay with playing it that way from a fluff standpoint, not that it is a set rule.

Understood. I just wanted to state that there isn't really anything at all in the wording to support an interpretation that all MODELS must shoot at the same target. There is a core difference in the rules between models and units. Many new players get the two confused on a regular basis. I feel that saying a requirement that all units must shoot at Target X implies that all models must shoot at Target X does a disservice to any new players reading this thread who don't have a deep understanding of the rules.

To be clear, and to illustrate how Target Locks work (and the weird situations that occur), let's take an extreme example. Imagine we have a Crisis Suit Team consisting of 3x Crisis Suits and no Drones. Each Suit is equipped with a Target Lock and 2x Burst Cannons. The unit is standing in between four enemy units, which we'll call Units A, B, C and D. We can declare that the Unit as a whole is going to be shooting Unit A as the primary target. We can then say that all three Crisis Suits are activating their Target Locks with Suit A shooting Unit B, Suit B shooting Unit C and Suit C shooting Unit D. The Crisis Suit UNIT is shooting Unit A, but none of the member models in the unit is actually firing a weapon at said unit. This is strange and non-intuitive, but is exactly how the rules work when you understand the difference between units and models. GENERALLY, you'll have at least one or more models (usually Drones) firing at the primary target, but this is by no means a requirement.

From a CFP standpoint, you select the target, add units to the shooting attack and then activate Target Locks to 'split fire'. If every single model participating in the CFP had a Target Lock, you could see a potential scenario where every UNIT is shooting at the required target, but every MODEL is shooting elsewhere.

I was actually going to bring up the same point about target lock and unit vs model targeting via it.

A monat(with target lock, a sole survivor would be the same) can absolutely declare an enemy unit his "unit's" target, then use target lock to fire at a different unit(then charge the units target)

Kriswall wrote:From a CFP standpoint, you select the target, add units to the shooting attack and then activate Target Locks to 'split fire'. If every single model participating in the CFP had a Target Lock, you could see a potential scenario where every UNIT is shooting at the required target, but every MODEL is shooting elsewhere.

To be fair, Target Lock targeting would only be required to be announced when the weapon to be used is selected. If you have 11 Pulse Rifles and 1 Markerlight firing, Target Lock's target only has to be declared when the Markerlight is selected to shoot. If a TL'ing 2 Plasma Rifle Crisis Suit is in a squad with 2 Crisis Suits with 1 Plasma Rifle and 1 Missile Pod, the TL'ing Suit would have to declare targets at the point the Plasma Rifle would be selected to fire, but not if the Missile Pods are fired first. This is the only hard requirement on Target Lock (and Super-Heavy and PotMS) targeting.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I was actually going to bring up the same point about target lock and unit vs model targeting via it.

A monat(with target lock, a sole survivor would be the same) can absolutely declare an enemy unit his "unit's" target, then use target lock to fire at a different unit(then charge the units target)

He could, but he wouldn't benefit from CFP unless he target locked the CFP target since it requires the unit to shoot at it.

Charistoph wrote:

Kriswall wrote:From a CFP standpoint, you select the target, add units to the shooting attack and then activate Target Locks to 'split fire'. If every single model participating in the CFP had a Target Lock, you could see a potential scenario where every UNIT is shooting at the required target, but every MODEL is shooting elsewhere.

To be fair, Target Lock targeting would only be required to be announced when the weapon to be used is selected. If you have 11 Pulse Rifles and 1 Markerlight firing, Target Lock's target only has to be declared when the Markerlight is selected to shoot. If a TL'ing 2 Plasma Rifle Crisis Suit is in a squad with 2 Crisis Suits with 1 Plasma Rifle and 1 Missile Pod, the TL'ing Suit would have to declare targets at the point the Plasma Rifle would be selected to fire, but not if the Missile Pods are fired first. This is the only hard requirement on Target Lock (and Super-Heavy and PotMS) targeting.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I was actually going to bring up the same point about target lock and unit vs model targeting via it.

A monat(with target lock, a sole survivor would be the same) can absolutely declare an enemy unit his "unit's" target, then use target lock to fire at a different unit(then charge the units target)

He could, but he wouldn't benefit from CFP unless he target locked the CFP target since it requires the unit to shoot at it.

Sigh. Yes he would because his UNIT is firing at the required unit. The only MODEL in his UNIT (him) just happens to be using a target lock. I still don't think you understand the (admittedly sometimes counter intuitive) difference between model and unit.

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Kriswall wrote:From a CFP standpoint, you select the target, add units to the shooting attack and then activate Target Locks to 'split fire'. If every single model participating in the CFP had a Target Lock, you could see a potential scenario where every UNIT is shooting at the required target, but every MODEL is shooting elsewhere.

To be fair, Target Lock targeting would only be required to be announced when the weapon to be used is selected. If you have 11 Pulse Rifles and 1 Markerlight firing, Target Lock's target only has to be declared when the Markerlight is selected to shoot. If a TL'ing 2 Plasma Rifle Crisis Suit is in a squad with 2 Crisis Suits with 1 Plasma Rifle and 1 Missile Pod, the TL'ing Suit would have to declare targets at the point the Plasma Rifle would be selected to fire, but not if the Missile Pods are fired first. This is the only hard requirement on Target Lock (and Super-Heavy and PotMS) targeting.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I was actually going to bring up the same point about target lock and unit vs model targeting via it.

A monat(with target lock, a sole survivor would be the same) can absolutely declare an enemy unit his "unit's" target, then use target lock to fire at a different unit(then charge the units target)

He could, but he wouldn't benefit from CFP unless he target locked the CFP target since it requires the unit to shoot at it.

Sigh. Yes he would because his UNIT is firing at the required unit. The only MODEL in his UNIT (him) just happens to be using a target lock. I still don't think you understand the (admittedly sometimes counter intuitive) difference between model and unit.

I do recognize the difference between model and unit, I just recognize the difference between targeting and shooting, too, and CFP requires the unit to shoot at the target to benefit.

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Kriswall wrote:From a CFP standpoint, you select the target, add units to the shooting attack and then activate Target Locks to 'split fire'. If every single model participating in the CFP had a Target Lock, you could see a potential scenario where every UNIT is shooting at the required target, but every MODEL is shooting elsewhere.

To be fair, Target Lock targeting would only be required to be announced when the weapon to be used is selected. If you have 11 Pulse Rifles and 1 Markerlight firing, Target Lock's target only has to be declared when the Markerlight is selected to shoot. If a TL'ing 2 Plasma Rifle Crisis Suit is in a squad with 2 Crisis Suits with 1 Plasma Rifle and 1 Missile Pod, the TL'ing Suit would have to declare targets at the point the Plasma Rifle would be selected to fire, but not if the Missile Pods are fired first. This is the only hard requirement on Target Lock (and Super-Heavy and PotMS) targeting.

Kommissar Kel wrote:I was actually going to bring up the same point about target lock and unit vs model targeting via it.

A monat(with target lock, a sole survivor would be the same) can absolutely declare an enemy unit his "unit's" target, then use target lock to fire at a different unit(then charge the units target)

He could, but he wouldn't benefit from CFP unless he target locked the CFP target since it requires the unit to shoot at it.

Sigh. Yes he would because his UNIT is firing at the required unit. The only MODEL in his UNIT (him) just happens to be using a target lock. I still don't think you understand the (admittedly sometimes counter intuitive) difference between model and unit.

I do recognize the difference between model and unit, I just recognize the difference between targeting and shooting, too, and CFP requires the unit to shoot at the target to benefit.

The unit selects the required target as its target and then cycles through all available weapons (zero) to make it's shooting attack. You're over thinking this. Can you point to a requirement that a model within a unit actually fire a weapon at a primary target for the shooting attack to be a "real" shooting attack? I don't see one.

That is what I was saying about the implied interpretation: it says the units must shoot at, not that the units must target.

As far as RAW goes there is no difference between the two because "shoot at" is ill-defined at best and completely meaningless at worst. You unit "shoots at" whatever they are targeting, whether or not the individual models actually target that unit or make so much as a single shooting attack at that unit.

You could just as easily have a unit join in the cfp and not make a single shooting attack(due to lack of range) but still count as joining the attack.


As for the monat example I gave; that was just illustrating general target lock shenanigans, having very little to do with cfp.

 Kriswall wrote:

The unit selects the required target as its target and then cycles through all available weapons (zero) to make it's shooting attack. You're over thinking this. Can you point to a requirement that a model within a unit actually fire a weapon at a primary target for the shooting attack to be a "real" shooting attack? I don't see one.

No, I am not over thinking it. I am using the words as the rulebook use them. The CFP rule requires the unit to shoot at that target to benefit, not make a "Shooting Attack" The step that actually starts "Shooting" involves rolling To-Hit or its Marker/Template analogue. If the Shooting Sequence is stopped before this point, no actual Shooting occurs.

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

The unit selects the required target as its target and then cycles through all available weapons (zero) to make it's shooting attack. You're over thinking this. Can you point to a requirement that a model within a unit actually fire a weapon at a primary target for the shooting attack to be a "real" shooting attack? I don't see one.

No, I am not over thinking it. I am using the words as the rulebook use them. The CFP rule requires the unit to shoot at that target to benefit, not make a "Shooting Attack" The step that actually starts "Shooting" involves rolling To-Hit or its Marker/Template analogue. If the Shooting Sequence is stopped before this point, no actual Shooting occurs.

That is an entire different discussion and has been discussed in a separate thread already. "shooting attack" does not equate to requiring the unit having fired. "shooting attack" is the same as entering the "shooting sequence".

Question... assuming that I have a unit with 3x Crisis Suits with Target Locks and a single Gun Drone, will the suits benefit if the Unit participates in the CFP and the lone Gun Drone fires at the primary target?

 Kriswall wrote:
Question... assuming that I have a unit with 3x Crisis Suits with Target Locks and a single Gun Drone, will the suits benefit if the Unit participates in the CFP and the lone Gun Drone fires at the primary target?

Yes, as we are told the Gun Drone is considered a model within the unit

notredameguy10 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
Question... assuming that I have a unit with 3x Crisis Suits with Target Locks and a single Gun Drone, will the suits benefit if the Unit participates in the CFP and the lone Gun Drone fires at the primary target?

Yes, as we are told the Gun Drone is considered a model within the unit

Ok, so now Target Locks benefit from the +1BS for being part of a CFP while NOT shooting at the primary target? I'm just trying to understand because it feels like the argument is shifting.

The real question right now is whether or not a unit who selects a target for a shooting attack is considered to be shooting at that unit if no actual models in the unit fire a weapon. I say yes. You guys say no. There doesn't appear to be enough in the rules to come to a consensus. What it means for a unit to shoot at a target isn't clearly defined.

Your interpretation just doesn't work.

When I decide whether or not to add a unit to a CFP, I don't yet have to make the decision on whether or not I'm using Target Locks. Is your contention that once I make the decision to use the Target Lock, that a PREVIOUS, ALREADY COMPLETED decision becomes illegal and that we somehow have to go back in time so that I can reverse the decision? I'm just trying to understand how you actually understand this to work. I'm literally asking.

Is your contention that choosing to use a Target Lock forces us to rewind the game and change a decision made previously in the game?

Kriswall: I had actually stated the exact thing a couple posts up; if a unit is out of range(or has no shooting weapon) it can still participate or originate cfp.

If it has guns and are in range the unit must shoot at least 1 weapon(the target lock issue may or may not mean that 1weapon must be shot at the target) in order to participate(the unit must shoot).

In trying to interpret what that line actually means we have several choices:
A) the unit simply declares it is using its shooting to target the enemy unit as a participant(therefore the unit as a whole cannot target another unit although individual members with target locks can, even all of them. The unit also cannot run or charge another unit unless that other unit is a unit that was embarked on a ttransport, that transport was the target of the cfp, and that transport was destroyed)
B) the unit declares itself as shooting at the target unit as part of the cfp and at least 1 model in the unit must target the cfp target.
C) the line is missing the word entire and no models may target any other units nor refrain from firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

There is no later decision that makes an eatlier decision illegal: all 3 decisions must be made at the same time.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Kriswall: I had actually stated the exact thing a couple posts up; if a unit is out of range(or has no shooting weapon) it can still participate or originate cfp.

If it has guns and are in range the unit must shoot at least 1 weapon(the target lock issue may or may not mean that 1weapon must be shot at the target) in order to participate(the unit must shoot).

In trying to interpret what that line actually means we have several choices:
A) the unit simply declares it is using its shooting to target the enemy unit as a participant(therefore the unit as a whole cannot target another unit although individual members with target locks can, even all of them. The unit also cannot run or charge another unit unless that other unit is a unit that was embarked on a ttransport, that transport was the target of the cfp, and that transport was destroyed)
B) the unit declares itself as shooting at the target unit as part of the cfp and at least 1 model in the unit must target the cfp target.
C) the line is missing the word entire and no models may target any other units nor refrain from firing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

There is no later decision that makes an eatlier decision illegal: all 3 decisions must be made at the same time.

Nothing happens at the same time. The controlling player determines the order in which to resolve rules when multiple things would otherwise happen simultaneously. In that sense, choosing to activate a Target Lock most certainly happens AFTER choosing for a unit to participate in a CFP action.

And I see A as the most likely interpretation. C is right out as it's predicated on a non-existant typo and B seems unlikely as it's predicated on adding a restriction that doesn't explicitly exist in the rules.

notredameguy10 wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

The unit selects the required target as its target and then cycles through all available weapons (zero) to make it's shooting attack. You're over thinking this. Can you point to a requirement that a model within a unit actually fire a weapon at a primary target for the shooting attack to be a "real" shooting attack? I don't see one.

No, I am not over thinking it. I am using the words as the rulebook use them. The CFP rule requires the unit to shoot at that target to benefit, not make a "Shooting Attack" The step that actually starts "Shooting" involves rolling To-Hit or its Marker/Template analogue. If the Shooting Sequence is stopped before this point, no actual Shooting occurs.

That is an entire different discussion and has been discussed in a separate thread already. "shooting attack" does not equate to requiring the unit having fired. "shooting attack" is the same as entering the "shooting sequence".

Have a quote to back that up? And do you have the quote where it states that a unit participating in a Shooting Attack benefits from CFP? Or is still just "must shoot at the target"?

Kommissar Kel wrote:Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

There is no later decision that makes an eatlier decision illegal: all 3 decisions must be made at the same time.

The model does not have to declare Target Lock Target at Step 2, but would have to be declared before their weapons are selected to fire. It is usually cleaner to declare all targets at Step 2, Target Lock just doesn't require it since its still stuck in 6th Edition like the Super-Heavies.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
.Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

i have a feeling he's going to refer to the rule that you do not have to fire a weapon if you choose to , which would happen after that

kambien wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
.Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

i have a feeling he's going to refer to the rule that you do not have to fire a weapon if you choose to , which would happen after that

No because if it all happens at the same time, BRB states the person in control gets to choose the order

notredameguy10 wrote:

kambien wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
.Also target lock simply allows for the model in the unit to declare a separate target. That declaration would have to happen in step 2; which is at the same time as the unit declares its target, and cfp is declared use.

i have a feeling he's going to refer to the rule that you do not have to fire a weapon if you choose to , which would happen after that

No because if it all happens at the same time, BRB states the person in control gets to choose the order

your misunderstanding . When it gets to pick a weapon ( which is after select target and CFP and target locks ) and you go through all the other weapons , and get to pulse carbine for the single gun drone in the 3 crisis suit team that has the target locks on each suit , your allowed to go NEWP ! not shooting , i don't have to.