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So this weekend I played my first game since... 2011? 2010? A good long time at any rate and just dusted off my old Tallarn army from 4-5 years ago. I replaced the Hydras with Strom Troopers (yes I used them!) and kept the carapace on my vets.

So it looked something like this:
Command Squad 4x Plasma, Astropath, carapace, Chimera
Psyker

Vets, 3xplasma, auto cannon, carapace
Vets, 3xplasma, auto cannon, carapace
Vets, 3xplasma, auto cannon, carapace
Vets, 3xmelta, Carapace, Chimera
Vets, 3xmelta, Carapace, Chimera
Vets 2xFlamer, 1xheavy flamer, carapace (Valkyrie)

Storm Trooper Command, 4xplamsa
5 storm troopers, 2xmelta (Vendetta)
5 storm troopers, 2xmelta (Vendetta)

Vendetta
Vendetta
Valkyrie

Manticore

Granted it was against a guy who hadn't played since 2nd edition, and this army is born to kill marines, but in all, it was a pretty clear victory for me.

Vets are 6 points (!!) and carapace just 1.5/model, for that I get to actually save against bolters and a 50/50 shot of surviving a plasma overheat.

I know a lot of players would say those 15 points (110 points army-wide) could go for 10 or 20 more bodies, but it seems making my vet squads more survivable is worth more than another squad or two.

I dunno, thoughts?

Always worth it. I do carapace armor all day long. I don the same for my ork boyz. 4+ can go a long way.

The extra squad or two would likely do more for you in the game than those guys that survived the hits.
That being said your plasma heavy list makes carapace armour a fair points investment.

You could run a vet formation where they get preferred enemy vs opponents near the points. That's even more chance to ignore overheats.

 koooaei wrote:
You could run a vet formation where they get preferred enemy vs opponents near the points. That's even more chance to ignore overheats.

Oo, where's that formation?

Anyway, army pic, needs basing, but I love having an IG army with about as many models as a Marine army.

I don't really like Carapace Armor personally. It is quite expensive and AP4,auto AP2 or massed fire is common these days. If you footslogg them, I understand you want to protect them and it's a matter of taste. But in a Chimera?

I feel it is quite a waste since they have AV all around them until they disembark. And when they have captured or destroyed what they were meant to, they can still use cover or go back to their Chimera if it's still alive.

A Vet squad with ACs si 75pts and you'll still have to give them SW. You pay them 45pts of plasma and 10 points of an autocannon that would most likely snapshot all day long.
Mixing Assault and Heavy weapons is not very efficient (save you have special tactics for them I don't know) and it is costly. You guys are still guardsmen, they have still T3 and their 4+ save is not going to do much to protect your points investment IMO.

If you really want to protect them more, the Forward Sentry Doctrine would perhaps be more effective. 10pts/fig, you have +1 at cover save and no enemy squad charging you can claim +1A. Ignore Cover is less common than things I described earlier !
And with all the points you will save on AC, you willbe able to buy more infantry, more force multipliers and more cheap antitank stuff.

But it is still only my humble opinion.

I would be tempted to say yes for squads with Plasma, no on others.

Only thing in the list I would change is to drop the carapace on the chimelta vets and add demolitions to the flamer team.

My old lists always had harker with flamers and heavy flamer along with demolitions, a plasma-carapace squad in a valk and then 2 gun-line platoons full of heavies(with some heavy armour support of a couple bassies and several russes)

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You could run a vet formation where they get preferred enemy vs opponents near the points. That's even more chance to ignore overheats.

Oo, where's that formation?

It's in the mont'ka book iirc. Together with IG decurion. Decurion bonuses are not that great, however, and core choices are very unwieldy but formations in the book are potent. Oh, and IG decurion allows you to basically spam command squads with rerolling orders. So, you could easilly exchange your stormtroopers for comsquads in your list. And yep, you could take them with no need to take anything else.

Vet formation is a comsquad, 3 squads of vets and 1-3 helhound type squadrons. Vets and comsquad must take chimeras or tauroxes. They all get preferred enemy against enemies within 6" of objectives - and there are gona be such enemies. Vets also get obsec.

Nice compact army you've got

Btw, there's a formation of 3 squadrons of valkiries/vendettas that allows you to automatically pass reserve rolls for the 2-d and 3-d squadron if the 1-st one was successful. It also allows to parachute your guyz without scatter. But in this case, the flyer won't be able to jink next turn.
Basically, if you don't want to change anything at all in your list - this formation provides some useful bonuses. Reserves are a pain and it helps a bit.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
You could run a vet formation where they get preferred enemy vs opponents near the points. That's even more chance to ignore overheats.

Oo, where's that formation?

Mont'ka.

Emperor's Blade Assault Company
It consists a Company Command Squad, 3 Veteran Squads, and 1-3 Hellhound tank squadrons.
All the infantry need to be mounted in Taurox or Chimera but they get Objective Secured(their transports don't as it is specific to the infantry units).

Clear the Area: Units from an Assault Company have the Preferred Enemy special rule against enemy units within 6" of an Objective Marker.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Only thing in the list I would change is to drop the carapace on the chimelta vets and add demolitions to the flamer team.

My old lists always had harker with flamers and heavy flamer along with demolitions, a plasma-carapace squad in a valk and then 2 gun-line platoons full of heavies(with some heavy armour support of a couple bassies and several russes)

Not too sure about Harker, he used to be epic, granting infiltrate and some thing else... but now he's a 55pt heavy bolter. That's basically another squad.

Yeah I could shuffle around my doctrines, very easily in fact, I have something 400 metal IG. Not a problem to say Tallarns have carapace, Redemptionists have stealth and Orlocks have demoltions. Not a problem at all.

Certainly if things ever get competative it would be a way to go.

And i'll have to look up that book, thanks.

(soon...)

$75?

I run carapace on plasma veterans. The ability to have a 50/50 chance to ignore gets hot as well as shrug off a good amount of small arms fire makes the upgrade worth it to me. Plus, you have a better chance of surviving the death of the Chimera.

Glad to see you back in the game Kid K! Did you have a good time?

Regarding the initial topic, I think carapace is OK for guardsmen. I am more inclined to go with forward sentries for the +1 cover (and you can go to ground before hopping back up with orders!), but YMMV. Generally I think it's a 5 point difference and if you need your vets to live it's probably a wash.

Another option I wanted to throw out for fun is an overlooked option from IA3:2nd Ed called "Desert Raiders." It allows your squad to reroll 1s to hit in the shooting phase and gives move through cover. If you're going to jump out of planes, these bonuses make you hit harder and make scattering from your Valkyrie not such a big deal. Down side is you're not allowed to take carapace armor if you do so.

Carapace is the best upgrade for vets, imo. They're still really cheap and makes your army way more survivable, making it, in my eyes, far more useful than an extra squad who'll just die in a turn. It hurts me greatly that my Death Korps can't have it

My rule of thumb for armor upgrades is Unless your in a transport or unless you're filling you deployment zone corner to corner with bodies, armor upgrades are always worth it.

Yeah Autocannons are a thing, but if they're shooting the Autocannon at your 8 point Guardsmen instead of your 100+ point tank or flyer, that's a W in my book.

4+ armor is actually a sweet spot in the game against many weapon systems ignore cover. Since most of these weapons are AP5, you can get either a cover save or your armor save.

+1 for carapace vets, the slight boost to survivability has in past game been a deciding factor. Also the montka CCS with carapace, camo , and a medic has proven to rather tough as well, tried them out with the missus and she became exasperated and how tough that tiny squad was to small arms fire. Being able to load them up with spec wpns and almost auto orders was a nasty bit of business.

The only reason to NOT take carapace, is the modeling aspect. And that's only an issue if you're playing strict WYSIWYG.

Otherwise, the investment will always be worth it, in every conceivable way. It's mostly unimportant vs Overheats. If you suffer 12 overheats in a game, you're apt to save 6 instead of 4... and think of the points.

No, the better save vs Bolter Equivalents and a save vs Flamers is the golden ticket.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The only reason to NOT take carapace, is the modeling aspect. And that's only an issue if you're playing strict WYSIWYG.

Otherwise, the investment will always be worth it, in every conceivable way. It's mostly unimportant vs Overheats. If you suffer 12 overheats in a game, you're apt to save 6 instead of 4... and think of the points.

No, the better save vs Bolter Equivalents and a save vs Flamers is the golden ticket.

Bingo. It's the difference of getting a 50/50 vs Bolters, and not getting a save period. Sounds like a no brainer to me.

 greatbigtree wrote:
The only reason to NOT take carapace, is the modeling aspect. And that's only an issue if you're playing strict WYSIWYG.

Tallarn wear full robes and have bulky shoulder pads, so my logic is they can be wearing carapace under that.

KK playing 40K?! Quick, someone get me the Good Book coz I gots some repentin' to do!

Carapace is cheap enough for a Guard player that it pretty much comes down to personal preference. But it does add up real quick, and at 110 points, I might seriously consider not taking it all and finding another 20 points I could cut and fielding 2 Wyverns. Wyverns are ridiculously good, and easily trump a 4+ on a bunch of T3 scrubs.

Offensively, yes, but if those scrubs survive to score objectives [which, incidentally, still wins most games] than it's money in the bank.

I can't stress enough how great the value add is from Carapace. It is an auto-include for it's value. I might run a SINGLE unit of Vets without it, in order to scrimp those last 10 or so points to take another unit, but that would be the only way.

Those Vets need to survive, and Carapace is the best value. Dudes in a Chimera are going to get wrecked out in the open, eventually. Now you have a save. But since they got wrecked, they might have been exploded, so now you have a better save there. You're surely going to be shot at by small arms, so now you have a save against those, even if your Tau-playing "friend" has hit you with Markerlights.

Sooooooo good, and critical to scoring points, which is the main goal at the end of the day.

 greatbigtree wrote:
Offensively, yes, but if those scrubs survive to score objectives [which, incidentally, still wins most games] than it's money in the bank.

I can't stress enough how great the value add is from Carapace. It is an auto-include for it's value. I might run a SINGLE unit of Vets without it, in order to scrimp those last 10 or so points to take another unit, but that would be the only way.

Those Vets need to survive, and Carapace is the best value. Dudes in a Chimera are going to get wrecked out in the open, eventually. Now you have a save. But since they got wrecked, they might have been exploded, so now you have a better save there. You're surely going to be shot at by small arms, so now you have a save against those, even if your Tau-playing "friend" has hit you with Markerlights.

Sooooooo good, and critical to scoring points, which is the main goal at the end of the day.

I think you're putting a lot of stock into a 16.67% greater chance to save a wound than you should. It's not like guardsmen had no save at all. You're also inside Chimeras, so you're not actually using the save until you disembark. You are staying inside your Chimera, right? So, I ask: what's more likely to win you a game? Eight S4 small, twin-linked blasts with Shred and Ignores Cover blasting a unit off an objective every turn or ~17% more guardsmen?

 the_Armyman wrote:

 greatbigtree wrote:
Offensively, yes, but if those scrubs survive to score objectives [which, incidentally, still wins most games] than it's money in the bank.

I can't stress enough how great the value add is from Carapace. It is an auto-include for it's value. I might run a SINGLE unit of Vets without it, in order to scrimp those last 10 or so points to take another unit, but that would be the only way.

Those Vets need to survive, and Carapace is the best value. Dudes in a Chimera are going to get wrecked out in the open, eventually. Now you have a save. But since they got wrecked, they might have been exploded, so now you have a better save there. You're surely going to be shot at by small arms, so now you have a save against those, even if your Tau-playing "friend" has hit you with Markerlights.

Sooooooo good, and critical to scoring points, which is the main goal at the end of the day.

I think you're putting a lot of stock into a 16.67% greater chance to save a wound than you should. It's not like guardsmen had no save at all. You're also inside Chimeras, so you're not actually using the save until you disembark. You are staying inside your Chimera, right? So, I ask: what's more likely to win you a game? Eight S4 small, twin-linked blasts with Shred and Ignores Cover blasting a unit off an objective every turn or ~17% more guardsmen?

It also gives you a save against AP 5. There is a ton of AP 5 in the game. Most sources of marine firepower that has ignore cover built in are AP 5. That's a very good reason to have 4+ armor.

As above.

The difference between a 5+ and a 4+ is usually 50% survival. So it's most definitely worth it. Think of how many units DO NOT have an AP5 main weapon. Orks don't. IG don't. Nids... maybe? I'm not sure. Everything else?

And yes, I'd love if my Chimera lasted the whole game. I'd love if they lasted til turn 3. But more often then not, the Chimera that I send forwards get mulched by turn 3, and then I'm foot slogging. If I need to get to an objective, that means breaking cover, most of the time. So yeah, those bodies that are still alive are more important to scoring objectives, since there probably aren't any in my deployment zone that a Wyvern could hold.

If you take 3x Plasmaguns in a squad, you're looking at a 14.3% increase in cost for the unit, to typically increase their survivability by a minimum of 33%, more in my experience. Yes, it's the most fan-fuckin'-tablulous upgrade in the codex. One of the best ways to spend points, if you're looking to last to the end of the game. These guys are your objective grabbers, plain and simple. You need them to live.