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What the headline says. Can I make a look out sir roll for a char if he gets hit by a stomp attack?

Stomp wounds are "suffered" rather than "allocated" - only wounds that are "allocated" can be Look Out Sir!'d.

This is the same reasoning you can't LoS! Dangerous Terrain wounds, Perils of the Warp wounds etc.

Similarly, because the Overrun result doesn't allocate (or even generate) wounds, it may not be LoS!'d.

{Edit} Redaction - see discussion below {/Edit}

Thnx for the quick reply. Who about wounds from D ranged weapons?

They're just normal allocated wounds.

 bloodoffi wrote:
Thnx for the quick reply. Who about wounds from D ranged weapons?

The D weapon rules are again a "suffers", so you cannot LoS! individual wounds from a hit (say a Seriously Wounded result of 3 wounds, cannot be split about between a character and another model).
The D weapon rules don't actually tell us how to allocate the hits, just that as soon as a hit is scored against a unit, we roll on the table. Given that we need a way to allocate that hit against a multi-model unit, we make a (hopefully logical) guess and use the standard wound allocation rules (or Barrage allocation, for Barrage D weapons), allocating "hits" instead of wounds (in a similar fashion to Vehicle Squadrons). Again, this technically doesn't trigger LoS!.

For what it's worth, my HIWPI is that LoS! are allowed against D-weapon hits and Stomp attacks, as they're too efficient at sniping characters otherwise, however, I don't think that's RAW.

This is quite interesting is there a table what you can los and what not ?

Where are the rules about models "suffering" a Wound? They would have been useful in the last Stomp discussion.

 Quanar wrote:
For what it's worth, my HIWPI is that LoS! are allowed against D-weapon hits and Stomp attacks, as they're too efficient at sniping characters otherwise, however, I don't think that's RAW.

I agree. The Stomp and D rules are written so poorly (And incomplete) compared to the rest of 40K that if you decide to crucify yourself on the cross of RAW you run into all sorts of problems. i.e. You get cover saves against Stomp.

Much better to just RAI in the missing pieces like hit allocation, Ignores Cover, and Look Out Sir.

tag8833 wrote:

 Quanar wrote:
For what it's worth, my HIWPI is that LoS! are allowed against D-weapon hits and Stomp attacks, as they're too efficient at sniping characters otherwise, however, I don't think that's RAW.

I agree. The Stomp and D rules are written so poorly (And incomplete) compared to the rest of 40K that if you decide to crucify yourself on the cross of RAW you run into all sorts of problems. i.e. You get cover saves against Stomp.

Much better to just RAI in the missing pieces like hit allocation, Ignores Cover, and Look Out Sir.

Cover saves against Stomp attacks kinda makes sense, they could be jumping into a shell crater or something so they get low enough the big boot doesn't get them, or getting behind a rock that takes the impact, or something like that. No weirder than a stomp from a gigantic monster being only AP4. LOS! for 3-5 makes sense, too, since they see it coming and push the character out of the way as normal. But maybe I'm just RAI-ing it.

Etc allows los except roll of 6

ETC has been known to make house rules as well.

 Quanar wrote:
Stomp wounds are "suffered" rather than "allocated" - only wounds that are "allocated" can be Look Out Sir!'d.

This is the same reasoning you can't LoS! Dangerous Terrain wounds, Perils of the Warp wounds etc.

Similarly, because the Overrun result doesn't allocate (or even generate) wounds, it may not be LoS!'d.

It sucks, but that's how it is.

Incorrect. Stomp attacks generate hits that are suffered.




The Stomp rules lack any rules for generating wounds from the hits.

Stomp attacks have general permission to use the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound generation and allocation. This general permission includes Look Out, Sir!

Except Stomp hits Models, not units, so the general wound allocation rules do not work.

The real issue is when you roll a 6. There's no LOS for that. The models are simply removed.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Stomp hits Models, not units, so the general wound allocation rules do not work.

Templates hit models as well. Are you saying wound allocation does not work in the case of Templates? General wound allocation handles templates and blasts just fine. I am seeing zero issue here.

Further, the general wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase are the ones we have for Stomp and they work fine. Point to the rules you are using for wound generation in place of those rules, page and paragraph please. You are not allowed to use rules you make up in your head unless you label it HYWPI.

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Stomp hits Models, not units, so the general wound allocation rules do not work.

Templates hit models as well. Are you saying wound allocation does not work in the case of Templates? General wound allocation handles templates and blasts just fine. I am seeing zero issue here.

Further, the general wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase are the ones we have for Stomp and they work fine. Point to the rules you are using for wound generation in place of those rules, page and paragraph please. You are not allowed to use rules you make up in your head unless you label it HYWPI.

Not comparable at all, you target the unit with a template weapon.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
Except Stomp hits Models, not units, so the general wound allocation rules do not work.

Templates hit models as well. Are you saying wound allocation does not work in the case of Templates? General wound allocation handles templates and blasts just fine. I am seeing zero issue here.

Further, the general wound allocation rules in the Fight Sub-phase are the ones we have for Stomp and they work fine. Point to the rules you are using for wound generation in place of those rules, page and paragraph please. You are not allowed to use rules you make up in your head unless you label it HYWPI.

Not comparable at all, you target the unit with a template weapon.

Incorrect. They are directly comparable. Stomp uses blast after all. You have no argument.



The rules we have for generating hits and wounds for Stomp attacks can be found in the Stomp rules and the Fight Sub-phase rules. I will stick with using those rules. They are straightforward to use and I have no other choice.

Feel free to point to some other rules I should use besides the aforementioned.

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. They are directly comparable. Stomp uses blast after all. You have no argument.

This does not matter as Stomp does not target units like a template weapon would.

So you can not use the shooting sequence rules for Stomp resolution.

 DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. They are directly comparable. Stomp uses blast after all. You have no argument.

This does not matter as Stomp does not target units like a template weapon would.

So you can not use the shooting sequence rules for Stomp resolution.

Who said anything about using the shooting sequence rules? Stomp is an attack in close combat and uses the Fight Sub-phase rules for wound generation and wound allocation.

It's more you ignore, repeatedly, that a blast or template weapon that is fired targets a unit. Stomp never, ever targets a unit.

DeathReaper wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Incorrect. They are directly comparable. Stomp uses blast after all. You have no argument.

This does not matter as Stomp does not target units like a template weapon would.

Target, no. Hits, yes.

nosferatu1001 wrote:It's more you ignore, repeatedly, that a blast or template weapon that is fired targets a unit. Stomp never, ever targets a unit.

It is not the targeting that is really at issue, it is how it hits. And Stomps hit units just like Template Weapons do.


And then there is General Principles which says this about Blast Markers and Templates:

So, either there is no Wound Allocation process for Flamers and each model suffers the hit, or Stomps follow a Wound Allocation process from the Phase they are in. They are both processed the same, either way.

Charistoph wrote:

Spoiler:

Template Weapon
Template weapons are indicated by having the word ‘Template’ for their range instead of a number. Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit). Any models fully or partially under the template are hit. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touching a friendly model. The position of the firer is used to determine which armour facing is hit. A template weapon never hits the model firing it.

And then there is General Principles which says this about Blast Markers and Templates:

Spoiler:

The templates and blast markers are used as a way of determining how many models have been hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an attack uses a template or blast marker, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of scatter that might occur (scatter is discussed more completely next in this section). To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base.

So, either there is no Wound Allocation process for Flamers and each model suffers the hit, or Stomps follow a Wound Allocation process from the Phase they are in. They are both processed the same, either way.

Keep going with the Template rules and you'll get to "Wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules.", so regardless of which side of the fence on this discussion you are, it's never an issue that you don't know how to allocate them. Blast is even more explicit about hits being allocated to the unit.

The part of General Principles however is something I'll admit I'd missed, and causes me to change my stance on the discussion.

 Quanar wrote:

Charistoph wrote:

Spoiler:

Template Weapon
Template weapons are indicated by having the word ‘Template’ for their range instead of a number. Instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template so that its narrow end is touching the base of the firing model and the rest of the template covers as many models in the target unit as possible, without touching any other friendly models (including other models from the firing model’s unit). Any models fully or partially under the template are hit. Against vehicles, the template must be placed to cover as much of the vehicle as possible without touching a friendly model. The position of the firer is used to determine which armour facing is hit. A template weapon never hits the model firing it.

And then there is General Principles which says this about Blast Markers and Templates:

Spoiler:

The templates and blast markers are used as a way of determining how many models have been hit by an attack that has an area of effect or blast radius. When an attack uses a template or blast marker, it will explain how the template is positioned, including any kind of scatter that might occur (scatter is discussed more completely next in this section). To work out the number of hits, you normally need to hold the template or blast marker over an enemy unit or a particular point on the battlefield, and then look underneath (or through, if using a transparent template) to see how many models lie partially or completely underneath. A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template or blast marker. Remember that a model’s base is counted as being part of the model itself, so all a template or blast marker has to do to cause a hit is to cover any part of the target’s base.

So, either there is no Wound Allocation process for Flamers and each model suffers the hit, or Stomps follow a Wound Allocation process from the Phase they are in. They are both processed the same, either way.

Keep going with the Template rules and you'll get to "Wounds inflicted by template weapons are allocated following the normal rules.", so regardless of which side of the fence on this discussion you are, it's never an issue that you don't know how to allocate them. Blast is even more explicit about hits being allocated to the unit.

The part of General Principles however is something I'll admit I'd missed, and causes me to change my stance on the discussion.

That is the point I was trying to make. So far in these several discussions, no one has been able find a definition of how Wounding works when the models are hit directly.

So, we have to go with what we have, and with Template rules as precedent, we use the Wound Allocation of the Phase, which would allow LOS! against Wounds caused by the 2-5 result. 6 removes from play and doesn't Wound, so nothing to trigger LOS! any more than a Save, FNP, or Reanimation Protocols.

Odd thought, would Strikedown affect Stomp Attacks from an owning model?