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Having a "spirited discussion" with someone about this, second opinion would help;

For the purposes of choosing optional upgrades, does the phrase "Any Space Marine may..." include the squad's Sergeant? It would seem to be self-evident that the Sergeant is a Space Marine, but because the unit entry describes the squad composition as "4 Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines, 1 Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant", I've now got Rules McLawyerson, Esq telling me it's illegal to arm the Sergeant with the same weapon(Sniper Rifle) as the rest of the unit, as he's not actually called a "Space Marine"...

If you look at the unit's dataslate, if two different entries are armed differently, it will describe them differently. If it just lists the unit's weapons, then they are all armed the same. In other words, have him show you where it says what the Sergeant is armed with at all. Unless he can produce this information, he's armed the same as the rest of the squad.

That said, if he CAN show that, and the unit's options only say that a Legion Reconnaissance Space Marine can be upgraded with a sniper rifle, then he's right ;-)

 Yarium wrote:
If you look at the unit's dataslate, if two different entries are armed differently, it will describe them differently. If it just lists the unit's weapons, then they are all armed the same. In other words, have him show you where it says what the Sergeant is armed with at all. Unless he can produce this information, he's armed the same as the rest of the squad.

That said, if he CAN show that, and the unit's options only say that a Legion Reconnaissance Space Marine can be upgraded with a sniper rifle, then he's right ;-)

That's the issue; the unit entry only contains one Wargear section for all the default members(PA, Bolter, BP, Frag & Krak, Shroud Bombs), and then under the options section it states "Any Space Marine may exchange their Bolter for one of the following..." and lists Sniper Rifle, Shotgun, and Chainsword/CCW. But my new "friend" claims that since the unit entry also contains upgrades that say they're for the whole squad("The squad may take Cameleoline...", "The entire squad may take Meltabombs...") and ones specifically for the Sergeant("The squad's Sergeant may exchange their Bolter and/or Bolt Pistol for one of the following..."), that the "may" in the various options is prescriptive rather than permissive and limits him to choosing only from within those options. And right about there is where I reach for the Gin.

If it says that the squad may take exchange their bolters for sniper rifles, then the only question is whether the Sergeant is part of the squad. If the answer is "yes", then he can swap them. If it says that Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines can swap, then the answer is "no", since he's not a Legion Reconnaissance Space Marine.

 Yarium wrote:
If it says that the squad may take exchange their bolters for sniper rifles, then the only question is whether the Sergeant is part of the squad. If the answer is "yes", then he can swap them. If it says that Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines can swap, then the answer is "no", since he's not a Legion Reconnaissance Space Marine.

It says neither, alas. It says "Any Space Marine..." and nothing else, which I assert means members of the squad who are Space Marines, ie all of them, and he asserts means only those members of the squad which have the actual words "Space Marine" somewhere, ie only "Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines".

What are the names on the unit profile (i.e., the stat line)?

 Ghaz wrote:
What are the names on the unit profile (i.e., the stat line)?

Legion Space Marine and Legion Sergeant, the same as all the other Troops units, some of which have all the same weapons and some of which don't.

This is definitely one of the problems with inconsistent dataslate descriptions. If it really came down to it, I'd unfortunately have to side with your opponent. The character is a Legion Sergeant, not a Legion Space Marine, and only the Space Marines in the squad can be upgraded. On a very technical and unfun RAW level, the Sergeant is merely a model from the Space Marine faction. It's as much a Space Marine as your Rhinos are. Only the other guys in the squads are actually listed as Space Marines.

For example, in a Tactical Squad, you cannot give your Sergeant a Missile Launcher, even though it says that one Space Marine may take an item from the Special or Heavy weapons lists. This is because the Sergeant doesn't share the same name as the squad. But, from a strictly RAW perspective, this dataslate you have is extra-broken, as no models in the squad share the correct name and thus no models can take a Sniper Rifle.

Ultimately, the RAI comes down to what the closest similar squad does. Is this squad more like a Scout Squad or more like a Tactical Squad? A Scout Squad's Sergeant CAN take a Sniper Rifle, as it (correctly) says "any model may...". The Tactical Squad's Sergeant CAN'T take a Missile Launcher, as it (correctly) says "any Space Marine may...". Since the RAW in this case is broken either way, use this guide to best determine the outcome.

 Yodhrin wrote:
Having a "spirited discussion" with someone about this, second opinion would help;

For the purposes of choosing optional upgrades, does the phrase "Any Space Marine may..." include the squad's Sergeant? It would seem to be self-evident that the Sergeant is a Space Marine, but because the unit entry describes the squad composition as "4 Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines, 1 Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant", I've now got Rules McLawyerson, Esq telling me it's illegal to arm the Sergeant with the same weapon(Sniper Rifle) as the rest of the unit, as he's not actually called a "Space Marine"...

Your opponent is correct. This is pretty much the same reason why a Tactical Squad Sergeant can't take a Heavy Bolter. He's technically not a Space Marine. He's a Sergeant. The actual model names are super important in determining what upgrades you can take. Upgrades that are available to any model will usually have the words "any model may" present.

Remember, you can't use fluff to justify your interpretation of the rules. The Sergeant is a chunk of plastic with the in game name "Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant". Per the rules, he is not a "Space Marine" and isn't eligible for upgrades restricted to "Space Marines".

 Kriswall wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Having a "spirited discussion" with someone about this, second opinion would help;

For the purposes of choosing optional upgrades, does the phrase "Any Space Marine may..." include the squad's Sergeant? It would seem to be self-evident that the Sergeant is a Space Marine, but because the unit entry describes the squad composition as "4 Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines, 1 Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant", I've now got Rules McLawyerson, Esq telling me it's illegal to arm the Sergeant with the same weapon(Sniper Rifle) as the rest of the unit, as he's not actually called a "Space Marine"...

Your opponent is correct. This is pretty much the same reason why a Tactical Squad Sergeant can't take a Heavy Bolter. He's technically not a Space Marine. He's a Sergeant. The actual model names are super important in determining what upgrades you can take. Upgrades that are available to any model will usually have the words "any model may" present.

Remember, you can't use fluff to justify your interpretation of the rules. The Sergeant is a chunk of plastic with the in game name "Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant". Per the rules, he is not a "Space Marine" and isn't eligible for upgrades restricted to "Space Marines".

And yet as Yarium points out, the Legion Recon Squad are the 30K equivalent of Scouts, who can upgrade the whole squad the same way, and the Legion Support Squad has the Sergeant armed the same way as the squad. Christsake, the only "official" models for Recon Marines are all supplied with only Snipers or Shotguns, so how's that supposed to work if you can't equip the Sergeant the same way?

I know I should be hating on GW for writing the rules this way, but honestly I struggle really hard not to see people who actually argue strict-RAW to someone's face when they're trying to get a game as joyless pedants.

 Yodhrin wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
Having a "spirited discussion" with someone about this, second opinion would help;

For the purposes of choosing optional upgrades, does the phrase "Any Space Marine may..." include the squad's Sergeant? It would seem to be self-evident that the Sergeant is a Space Marine, but because the unit entry describes the squad composition as "4 Legion Reconnaissance Space Marines, 1 Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant", I've now got Rules McLawyerson, Esq telling me it's illegal to arm the Sergeant with the same weapon(Sniper Rifle) as the rest of the unit, as he's not actually called a "Space Marine"...

Your opponent is correct. This is pretty much the same reason why a Tactical Squad Sergeant can't take a Heavy Bolter. He's technically not a Space Marine. He's a Sergeant. The actual model names are super important in determining what upgrades you can take. Upgrades that are available to any model will usually have the words "any model may" present.

Remember, you can't use fluff to justify your interpretation of the rules. The Sergeant is a chunk of plastic with the in game name "Legion Reconnaissance Sergeant". Per the rules, he is not a "Space Marine" and isn't eligible for upgrades restricted to "Space Marines".

And yet as Yarium points out, the Legion Recon Squad are the 30K equivalent of Scouts, who can upgrade the whole squad the same way, and the Legion Support Squad has the Sergeant armed the same way as the squad. Christsake, the only "official" models for Recon Marines are all supplied with only Snipers or Shotguns, so how's that supposed to work if you can't equip the Sergeant the same way?

I know I should be hating on GW for writing the rules this way, but honestly I struggle really hard not to see people who actually argue strict-RAW to someone's face when they're trying to get a game as joyless pedants.

Sounds like a personal struggle, my friend. Therapy works great for that sort of thing. I can assure you that I'm not a joyless pedant.

I didn't realize these guys were supposed to be Scout equivalents. I'm just telling you how the rules normally work. Make your own call. I've never seen anyone play an actual game of 30k and I don't think there are that many 30k tournaments. My assumption is that you have a local community with a relatively static group of players. Put the issue to a vote and move forward. If you're looking for a rules as written answer, the Sergeant can't take upgrades specifically allowed to "Space Marines". If you're looking for a rules as intended or how you would play it answer... it's best to work that out with your actual opponents.

Remember, even with normal 40k Scouts, the Sarge has different equipment options. It's not crazy to think the Sarge is supposed to be a spotter in this case and can't take a Sniper Rifle.

 Yodhrin wrote:
And yet as Yarium points out, the Legion Recon Squad are the 30K equivalent of Scouts, who can upgrade the whole squad the same way, and the Legion Support Squad has the Sergeant armed the same way as the squad. Christsake, the only "official" models for Recon Marines are all supplied with only Snipers or Shotguns, so how's that supposed to work if you can't equip the Sergeant the same way?

I know I should be hating on GW for writing the rules this way, but honestly I struggle really hard not to see people who actually argue strict-RAW to someone's face when they're trying to get a game as joyless pedants.

In this case, since the RAW of it is broken, you really can only come to a consensus between you and your friend. Be the better sport and just go with whatever they want. You'll both be happier. Plus, it's unlikely to ever make or break a game.

It should probably be worth mentioning that the Legion Recon squad that is actually sold by Forgeworld has them all armed with sniper rifles.

Also, are you using the current "red book" as your source? I'm at work so I can't verify what mine says.

 Yodhrin wrote:
I know I should be hating on GW for writing the rules this way, but honestly I struggle really hard not to see people who actually argue strict-RAW to someone's face when they're trying to get a game as joyless pedants.

This isn't some kind of obscure rules interpretation that your friend is arguing - the language being used is the same as in other squads where the sergeant does not get to take the upgrade. To argue your interpretation will change how many squads are composed. Take a look at the standard scout squad - some upgrades are for everyone, some are for the sergeant, some are for anyone other than the sergeant.

If you feel that it may be an error then email FW, they're actually really good with rules queries.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It should probably be worth mentioning that the Legion Recon squad that is actually sold by Forgeworld has them all armed with sniper rifles.

The FW set comes with a sniper rifle and a shotgun (no bolter because presumably you have those) for everyone so there is no clear intent there (if you were buying two sets for a squad of 10 then you'd want 9 rifles, not 8).

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It should probably be worth mentioning that the Legion Recon squad that is actually sold by Forgeworld has them all armed with sniper rifles.

Also, are you using the current "red book" as your source? I'm at work so I can't verify what mine says.

TONS of GW kits don't come with the full wargear options, so this means less than nothing.

well, RAW, kind of. beyond that, being that in 30k everything is specialized (i.e. same base weapon squad wise), the intent is obvious.
Point in case: the legion tactical support squad stats that all of the space marines in the squad may exchange their flamers. It makes no distinction between marine and sergeant, and no one is going to say that your sergeant MUST still have a flamer while the rest of the squad runs plasma, unless their being a dick on purpose.
I recommend emailing FW and asking them to clarify.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scott-S6 wrote:

The FW set comes with a sniper rifle and a shotgun (no bolter because presumably you have those) for everyone so there is no clear intent there (if you were buying two sets for a squad of 10 then you'd want 9 rifles, not 8).

Yup, because GW (and FW) has done that so often in the past: overloading you on bits so you have to buy less kits! coughdevastatorboxescough.

Its fairly clear in the most current Red Book Army List. The squad are called Legion Reconnaissance Squad.

The members are:
Legion Space Marine
Legion Sargeant

The upgrades say: "Any Space Marine may exchange their bolter for... list including sniper rifle."

Further is says: "The Squad's Sargeant may exchange their bolter and/or CCW for [list of CCWs]..." and "The Squad's Sargeant may exchange their bolter for [list of shooting weapons that does not include sniper rifle].

Its not pedantic, and its not an RAI or RAW thing. Its how the unit entry (and all the 30k entries, for that matter), are written. Its also much clearer and more consistent than 40k codexes are. Its one of the huge points in 30k's favor.

And they're not comparable to scouts in 40k. They're full fledged space marines wearing power armor, who have the option to wear recon armor. I wouldn't try to use 40k to try to interpret 30k's rules though, in my experience with them, 30ks are very clear.

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It should probably be worth mentioning that the Legion Recon squad that is actually sold by Forgeworld has them all armed with sniper rifles.

Also, are you using the current "red book" as your source? I'm at work so I can't verify what mine says.

TONS of GW kits don't come with the full wargear options, so this means less than nothing.

I made a simple observation, nothing more, along with a request for clarification. There is no need to be insulting.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Point in case: the legion tactical support squad stats that all of the space marines in the squad may exchange their flamers. It makes no distinction between marine and sergeant, and no one is going to say that your sergeant MUST still have a flamer while the rest of the squad runs plasma, unless their being a dick on purpose.

That is actually incorrect now with the current list in the red book. The entry for the tactical support squad states all "models" may exchange their weapons.

 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

 Tannhauser42 wrote:
It should probably be worth mentioning that the Legion Recon squad that is actually sold by Forgeworld has them all armed with sniper rifles.

Also, are you using the current "red book" as your source? I'm at work so I can't verify what mine says.

TONS of GW kits don't come with the full wargear options, so this means less than nothing.

I made a simple observation, nothing more, along with a request for clarification. There is no need to be insulting.

 Brennonjw wrote:

Point in case: the legion tactical support squad stats that all of the space marines in the squad may exchange their flamers. It makes no distinction between marine and sergeant, and no one is going to say that your sergeant MUST still have a flamer while the rest of the squad runs plasma, unless their being a dick on purpose.

That is actually incorrect now with the current list in the red book. The entry for the tactical support squad states all "models" may exchange their weapons.

Apologies if you took that as an insult. It wasn't. It was merely a statement that the assortment of bits included in a kit doesn't always have much of a relation to the rules. A surprisingly large number of GW (including FW) kits don't include all of the wargear options the rules allow.