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Hey everyone! I have returned to talk about a game series called..... Dark Souls! As the title says I wanted to see if other people were interested in the design of the game itself and how it brilliantly lets players decide for themselves what paths to take, what playstyle to play as, and that failure is merely apart of it.

Dark souls is a successful game for many reasons and I could happily say that I have enjoyed all the experiences that it has given.

So I will introduce Dark Souls

Dark Souls

What is Dark Souls?

What makes it so special Asherian, what does it do for us as an audience that separates it?

Dark Souls is a game about failure, and death. These unique concepts drive the narrative, the player, and breeds immersion into the player into such a way that it is compelling. A game has to be interesting and compelling, but Dark Souls is a throwback to old retro games of yore. The Quarter Guzzlers or the pacmans, or the limited lives or where we are connected to the characters based on lives. WE are driven into this world by the fact that the game is tough or hard. We are given immersion because we the tense moments are happening because of the design of the game itself. It is punishing but it is fair. The world and the player are driven into loving the game, not because of some stockholme syndrome, but through the experiences that the player character exhibits as well. The player character in this game which you can hand tailor yourself is driven by you. And by extention is a metaphor of the world and the game.

So in the lore there is a process called hollowing, which by its due process it only happens to those who lose all their hope. Hollows are hopeless beings that cannot be saved or recovered. And throughout your adventure in dark souls. You will eventually meet people who are on the verge of hollowing, and by extentsion this applies to the player as well. This is cleverly designed to be a mechanics as metaphor. As this is becoming a much more common thing, such as in Spec Ops: The Line, where the gameplay and the story are metaphors for how out of touch most games are. Dark Souls does this with the hollowing mechanic, this mechanic happens when you die. You start off the game as hollow or close to it. Your character is huddling alone in a cell, it is up to the player to continue their hope as a manner of speaking a player that loses hope, hollows, and stops playing the game. This is a mechanics as metaphor. This is compelling, this is what drives most people without them even knowing about it. it is the connection to the player character that drives the player forward to progress.

The slow combat, visual, and audio design, are meant to give the players depth and complexity that many triple A games stumble and fall down on. Now why would I bring this up? Right now? Well Dark Souls 3 is around the corner and I have just picked up this game to study. Unlike most people, when I pick up a game, it is not to have fun. But to study it and look at my own design, and learn from other designers what they did and how I could improve my skills. It is learning by example as many would call it.

Dark Souls is a design masterpiece. One that has a deep an interesting lore, gameplay, and mechanical structure that just lends itself into some of the greatest games of all time. What once I thought was just a FAD or something that was just created to be hard, was actually an experience machine, one that as a designer I had to check out. The routes, the level design, and even art direction lend itself to a compelling narrative without much of a narrative driving goal. This is quite unique to what I am used to, the railcart shooters of call duty, battlefront, and battlefields. Which I am so used to playing. Instead I am given the literal wheel, where I can drive myself anywhere I want. This is what compelled me and pushed me forward into enjoying the experience.

Now! NOW! What does this mean in terms of design? Designing a game takes hard work, and Dark Souls is filled with design logic and thinking that is so unique and so interesting that I wonder if many Triple A or even indie developers have even played it. Infact. I found out recently most of my colleagues have heard of the game and have just not played it because of the "Difficulty level" or "They have too much work to do" or they are just flat out lazy. The later more truer than any of the other statements. The entire idea of escaping the familarity into the unknown is a terrifying concept for most game designers, and infact we see that quite often a good game is one that took risks and deliever on those risks and can compelling and interesting at the same time.

Designing for an audience is more about creating an experience than creating a game. Experiences are harder to craft than it is a GAME. If you make a cookie clicker game and make millions it doesn't add any value or give the player much interest, but if there was a design concept in there (Which there usually is) then we are the better for it.

Dark Souls 1-2 and Bloodborne, are excellent examples of game design. I have yet to beat either of them, but I have seen it and experienced it after beating bosses, and learning the levels. I just don't have the time to complete this levels or games. Or pour that much of my time in due to my time constraints, and not just me being lazy.

Videos you could watch if you want

General Design


Mechanics as metaphor:


Great levels and Level Design Theory

Part 1


Part 2




Bloodborne


What about Bloodborne?

Well first spoilers! Bloodborne is a Lovecraft game at its heart. It starts out with an interesting concept and then delves into something that I an avid reader and disciple of Lovecraft, love. Horror. Lovecraft and Horror. The two most interesting concepts to me. But that doesn't mean others would like it. Bloodborne is by its nature meant to be hard, and interesting. Though it lacks the particular design of dark souls 1 which I loved. Bloodborne is all about farming, and yes it is a great game, and one of the best. It is not Dark Souls 1 level of masterpiece. Mostly because of two things. Farming and Dying. Dark Souls 1, farming and dying are inconsequential, you don't need to farm to get past certain areas. Infact leveling wasn't that big of a part of the game, you could face the bases later in the game at level 50. But Bloodborne the leveling scales quickier and the farming is needed to get healing items. When you die in bloodborne all those healing items are not restocked and refreshed automatically which actually in consequence actually slows down the game considerably, as you have to go back to areas and farm for blood vials, and use blood echoes to get more vials as well. In dark souls 1 you die and all your healing items are refreshed at bonfires. Bonfires and Lamps being almost exactly the same thing. But the bonfires have more depth and are actually much easier to use. Instead of having to go to a single NPC and go through a loading screen each time. You can simply go to a bonfire and rest and get all those souls spent and level up your character, or teleport to a new area (once you acquire a certain item)

Dark Souls is a faster game than Bloodborne in a matter of speaking, Bloodborne is slowed down by those three big differences, the farming, the NPC LEVELER, and the teleporting to a single area to buy items. This slows the game down to such a degree that its fast combat is actually inhibited by these mechanics more than you would think.

And as someone who loves games, I can see the difference. Now this doesn't make bloodborne worse of a game, it just makes it slower. It teaches you to use healing items sparringly, Just like in Dark Souls. It is actually not a bad thing this happens. Its just a difference, some people might like it, some might not. Its a decision that sepereates BloodBorne and Dark Souls from eachother. And actually lends the game to be more unique and actually compelling. Because of it. I can tell you stories of how I would run through an area, not wanting to use my blood vials in fear of facing a boss and running out of vials. Just like in Dark Souls where the game tells me "be careful" and to use my healing items sparringly.

This actually gives the game surprisingly depth and interest to the game!




First off, I have been studying games like this for over a year now. As I go into different types of games and look at them critically! If you want to critique this or anything I do, please message me! I am open to critique.

Now I would like to talk to the DAKKA DAKKA Community, Gamers, hobbyists, and discuss the design of these games. I know there are a few designers in the community and I think talking about games is a great experience. Just don't go into which game is better. Because they are by the same developer and are done by two different teams. Any way I hope we all enjoy it and discuss these fabulous games?

So my question to start out this discussion is: Have you ever heard of dark souls/bloodborne? Have you ever played dark souls/bloodborne? What did you find compelling about it? What drove you to play it? What did you find interesting about the game? What drove you to like the game? What is it that you liked about it? What would you expect out of Dark Souls 3?

This is a Video Games thread so I shall move it out of Off Topic into....

Danka Schon! I forgot about that!

I am always happy to see another person appreciating these games and what really makes them good.

I have played Dark souls 1/2 and hope to one day play Bloodborne. What always drove me to these games is the overall story, lore and atmosphere. I find these games invoke a feeling of hopelessness, where most other games are trying to empower the audience. You wander your way through a broken world, fighting those heroes who have gone before you. Heroes much greater than us have been twisted into monsters, what hope do we have for success? Yet, despite this nihilism, the game keeps dangling some form of hope, some way to succeed where others failed. The game is also stuffed with lore. A player can stumble upon a dozen different tragic stories and fallen heroes if one observant enough.

There are plenty of people who delve into these stories, but Vaatvidya has really done a good job of investigating and really bringing to light the vast lore and metaphor of these games.
https://www.youtube.com/user/VaatiVidya

 Mr Nobody wrote:
I am always happy to see another person appreciating these games and what really makes them good.

I have played Dark souls 1/2 and hope to one day play Bloodborne. What always drove me to these games is the overall story, lore and atmosphere. I find these games invoke a feeling of hopelessness, where most other games are trying to empower the audience. You wander your way through a broken world, fighting those heroes who have gone before you. Heroes much greater than us have been twisted into monsters, what hope do we have for success? Yet, despite this nihilism, the game keeps dangling some form of hope, some way to succeed where others failed. The game is also stuffed with lore. A player can stumble upon a dozen different tragic stories and fallen heroes if one observant enough.

There are plenty of people who delve into these stories, but Vaatvidya has really done a good job of investigating and really bringing to light the vast lore and metaphor of these games.
https://www.youtube.com/user/VaatiVidya

Yeah environments and their design are what tell the story, which is something I perfer now that I have grown older. Infact many of my friends who are designers now are slowly turning to environmental design to help tell their stories. Show don't tell being something very common now!

Yes Vaatividya is a great source for lore, and are actually the reason I got into dark souls was because I heard about the history. Something I have not seen since my old days of warcraft 3.

It reminds me of black iron tarkus, whose ghost now haunts the fight before the black iron golem.

Dark Souls and BloodBorne?



I mastered Demon Souls before you got brutalized by the Asylum Demon Boss.

Demon souls prepared me to pwn newbs in dark souls 1 and 2. Those game became ultra easy. I was Stone kid invading you punks at low lvls.

Giantdad, Havelmom, Stone kid

Stone kid is here to make all you noobs sad.
He came to Lordran with his mom and his dad.
Like a good little boy; he eats his blossoms of greens.
Along with his mask, he's a spamming machine.
He'll buff up his falchion, and poise through your best.
He'll mash that R1, and he won't need to rest.
If you think yourself witty, and his tactics you'll read...
Just try to stay away; you'll be eating dark bead.
So, come at him, bros, with your top-est of tiers.
Because stone kid's in town, and he feeds on your tears.

Played all from Demon Souls to Bloodborne and they certainly are refreshing and some of my favourite games. I think Bloodborne has been my favourite as it suites my play style better. The whole communication between worlds and assisting and invasions adds an extra dynamic to them.

They are games where you want to play more to find out more as they give you very little at the start.

I'm glad of the difficulty of the games as it is a return to the old days of gaming like you say, where there were a limited number of lives. Makes you think more on your actions.

They can be bloody annoying games though!

Played them all from Demon souls to Bloodborne, the only one i like less is Dark souls 2, stuck in the first memory

Bloodborne is great, what i like the most about it is even if you get butchered many times it never feels unfair, and more like, i made a mistake, except rom those ice missiles are nasty.

 Filch wrote:
Dark Souls and BloodBorne?



I mastered Demon Souls before you got brutalized by the Asylum Demon Boss.

Demon souls prepared me to pwn newbs in dark souls 1 and 2. Those game became ultra easy. I was Stone kid invading you punks at low lvls.

Giantdad, Havelmom, Stone kid

Stone kid is here to make all you noobs sad.
He came to Lordran with his mom and his dad.
Like a good little boy; he eats his blossoms of greens.
Along with his mask, he's a spamming machine.
He'll buff up his falchion, and poise through your best.
He'll mash that R1, and he won't need to rest.
If you think yourself witty, and his tactics you'll read...
Just try to stay away; you'll be eating dark bead.
So, come at him, bros, with your top-est of tiers.
Because stone kid's in town, and he feeds on your tears.

I remember killing a player who entered my world after I zweihandered them and other that I killed with a astora's straight sword. I got pretty good at PVP and invading peoples worlds was pretty easy after a while. I just kicked alot of arse after a while. I did originally play demon souls I got up to the basin where you face the girl in white, got really sad after a while after concluding at a certain point the game got a bit repetitive

Though I got stuck in dark souls at the orinestien part, (Feth that part). I just need to get better at reacting and being less greedy.

Played them all from Demon souls to Bloodborne, the only one i like less is Dark souls 2, stuck in the first memory

Bloodborne is great, what i like the most about it is even if you get butchered many times it never feels unfair, and more like, i made a mistake, except rom those ice missiles are nasty.

Well Dark Souls 2 had certain things to it that caused it's problem such as graphical downgrade, the lore wasn't as deep as dark souls 1, but it brought some pretty cool designs out. That and a few other things that made dark souls 2 to be inferior to dark souls 1, such as the ease of it and being less difficult and more unfair. Certain things didn't make any sense such as the lava castle bit which was just flat out dumb.

I have played all the dark souls games and bloodborn, and i have to say that bloodborne is my favorite, due to its look and feel.
Also the enviorment is just stunning, and the music and general feel makes the game much more attractive to me as a player. The combat also flows much better than in Darksouls

I only played Dark Sous 1 and 2, as they are the only games available on PC (and even there, they are gakky ports withgout mods).

They are two of my favourite games, both in their own mind. After I played Dark Souls 1, I just couldn't touch any other RPG for a while. I either wished for a similiar visual design or found the combat system lacking after what I knew what control over combat was possible in Dark Souls (I'm looking at you, WoW).
The loneliness and despair of the Dark Souls world is very compelling to me. Even the friendly NPC are cleary lost and alone, even if you think you made a friend, this is not lasting and they may even turn on you:

Further, even the "good" choices you make, are possibly not so good after all.


The Dark Souls games, are also the only games up to now, that actually drove me to explore their world further outside of the video games. I watched the lore and gameplay videos from Vaatividya and EpicNameBro, bought the artwork books and the guides.
A lot of story and background is hidden in inGame descriptions of items and in choices you probably won't ever have made in the game, i.e. Dark Souls 1, giving the Lordvessel to Darkstalker Kaathe.

After all that, I hate FROM SOFTWARE for doing what they did with Dark Souls 2 and Scholar of the First Sin. They split the community, not allowing the two game versions to play together/invade each other. Don't know, if this is a problem on consoles.
Therefore, I did not pre-order Dark Souls 3 and will remain cautious if they will do the same again.

Scholar is a great game though, I think it's got a better placement over all and it has made it a bit more difficult. The dlc for it is great and damn tricky. Using DS2 as a base for where to go and what to expect leaves you very surprised sometimes. I remember being under the Lost Bastion about to go to the Sinner and there being a Sentry there rather than the mutant toad men, it was like ... AH RUN AWAY ... until I composed myself and smooshed him.

It is a shame that the two versions don't interact. I'm a filthy Casul though so i don't do a lot of pvp

The only thing I haven't liked about Scholar thus far is the new Hiede Knight placement. I know they are knights and are from Hiede but I think it was more interesting when you had the random encounters of them as if they had left their destroyed kingdom only to be bought down on their travels. It does make Tower of flame a lot harder though.

As someone who achieved Platinum status in the latter 3 installments in the space of 3 months, I concur with everything this says. I don't do too bad at PvP either but I found little enjoyment after Platinuming to pay much