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So I've always liked sniper units, but their rules seems increasingly less useful with each edition. So maybe, to represent them having the ability to gravely wound someone with a well-placed shot, they get the "Super Rending" some weapons have and get AP2 and Instant Death on a To Wound Roll of 6?

How do you guys think of this?

I like it (not just as a Raven Guard Player)

Oh man, that'd be hilarious, considering there's a Scion order that gives the sniper to their hotshot lasguns.

Enjoy up 9 instant death-wound-on-a-+4-AP3-wounds. I'd love it, for sure.

That would probably be a little too powerful. Too many things don't have EW already. It would be fine for say killing a Skitarii Alpha, but suddenly a ten point ratling can instant kill a Carnifex or a space marine character. The problem with snipers now is that they barely do anything because their abilities are easily ignored. If their abilities were effective it would be different. There is no more pinning, look out sir negates precision shots, Rending is hindered by heavy 1, and the way they wound makes them not suitable for weaker targets yet their AP is so crappy that stronger targets are usually a wash as well.

They are only decent for taking out the odd special weapon or a Sgt if you are lucky. None of those are game changers. Why both when mass fires from bolters or lasguns will do the same job.

Sniper should be changed to the following:

Shooter always picks the target. PS on a 6 is dumb. Targets are picked from the same unit before to hit and to wound modifiers are rolled. Extra wounds do not roll over to the rest of the squad.
-2 to look out sir rolls
Pinning with a -2 leadership modifier.

Now a sniper round volley is a threat to the target. They are for single model elimination. The pinning covers the base if the shots fails. You can still wiff completely, but a sniper unit left alone is much better at whittling down models taht hide in units. Instead of throwing buckets of bolter dice, you are throwing five shots that will hit a specific target with a high chance he will only be making a single save instead of hiding behind LOS. It would make it easier for snipers to do their intended jst being weak special weapons no one likes.

For me Sniper Rifles are suppose to be single-model elimination, so ID was the cleanest and easiest way to do this in the current meta. Straight up ID would be too powerful since, like you said, mass spamming would mean multi-wound models are obsolete. The "super rending" would be a good counterbalance to this, since it means on average a squad of Space Marine Scouts with Sniper rifles would need 9 shots to reliably activate this. Maybe drop the AP2, so that most targets that they would hit (who would reasonably have 3+ armor or better) would be able to save the instant-death wound.

It'd actually let people threaten Riptides. You'd need something like 18 shots to kill a Riptide with FNP (assuming it's using a 5++ save), but Snipers aren't too expensive.

This would make snipers the melta guns for monsters. I am all for it.

What about in addition to its pseudo rending it also has on 6s causing ignore cover and -2 to LoS rolls. Instand Death seems a bit strong to have something like Kroot with sniper rounds 1 shot a Riptide.

To be honest, lots of weapons in this game should have instant death. Shooting a T-Rex (a monstrous creature) with the main battle cannon of an Abrams wouldn't require more than one shot.

 Vankraken wrote:
What about in addition to its pseudo rending it also has on 6s causing ignore cover and -2 to LoS rolls. Instand Death seems a bit strong to have something like Kroot with sniper rounds 1 shot a Riptide.

Because the Vindicare needs competition? Just leave snipers as they are.

I like the idea of Instant Death on a 6 for sniper rifles. Maybe so that it only works on T4 or below. As said otherwise there a silly scenarios where for example a Carnifex gets one shot killed.

El Torro wrote:
I like the idea of Instant Death on a 6 for sniper rifles. Maybe so that it only works on T4 or below. As said otherwise there a silly scenarios where for example a Carnifex gets one shot killed.

It might make the wraith knight or such suddenly wake up and smell losing.

But anything like that may need a good point bump.

I think ID would be a little too powerful. I like the idea of pinning better. I think ID, pinning sniper rifles could be an upgrade for a certain number of points, but stock ID no.

El Torro wrote:
I like the idea of Instant Death on a 6 for sniper rifles. Maybe so that it only works on T4 or below. As said otherwise there a silly scenarios where for example a Carnifex gets one shot killed.

I was thinking that the sniper would have put a perfect shot into a MC's head to knock it out or something.

However if people feel ID is a bit strong, maybe instead give Sniper Rifles the old version of Rending, where on a To Hit Roll of a 6, it automatically wounds with no Armor Save or Cover Save possible (in addition to Precision Shots). This would be more like the Sniper scoring a masterful shot that hit dead on.

^^ That would make more sense, but then again would that still not be a bit OTT for a weapon that costs like 2 points? Definitely agree with the -2 to LOS rolls though... Just my 2 cents

SnazzyNinja wrote:
^^ That would make more sense, but then again would that still not be a bit OTT for a weapon that costs like 2 points? Definitely agree with the -2 to LOS rolls though... Just my 2 cents

Then give it a slight bump to match. Id pay more if they where more effective

Just for a reference, a Paragon Blade in 30k is 25 points for ID-on-a-6. So Sniper Rifles would need to be 20+ points honestly. This is from a guy who has the nastiest sniper rifles in the game (Radium and arquebus with skitarii).

StarHunter25 wrote:
Just for a reference, a Paragon Blade in 30k is 25 points for ID-on-a-6. So Sniper Rifles would need to be 20+ points honestly. This is from a guy who has the nastiest sniper rifles in the game (Radium and arquebus with skitarii).

Vindicare has +1 on your Skitarii. Sniper rifles would need to be >30 points to even be considered as a balanced weapon

Remember that in 6E, Eldar Distort weapons were ID-on-6, not Destroyer, and folks still thought they were ludicrously nasty. (Admittedly, the D-cannon and wraithcannon were still S10, which is pretty mean)

I think sniper rifles should be stronger, but not that much stronger. How about this:

Sniper weapons have a normal Strength and AP value, typically S4 AP4 but maybe different depending on the weapon. Then, the Sniper special rule is worded as follows:

Sniper: A model equipped with a weapon that has the Sniper special rule makes Precision Shots on a to-hit roll of 5+, provided that such a roll would normally hit. If the model also has the Precision Shots special rule, add one to all to-hit rolls for the purposes of determining if they score a Precision Shot. A Sniper weapon also always wounds on a to-wound roll of a 4+ (6+ against Gargantuan Creatures); if its Strength is greater than or equal to the target's Toughness, the weapon gains the Shred special rule. Sniper weapons always have the Rending special rule. Wounds inflicted by a weapon with the Sniper special rule can be re-allocated by use of the Look Out, Sir mechanic, but all Look Out, Sir rolls made against them are made at -2.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
That probably still merits a points increase in most cases, but only on par with a meltagun or so, not the 20-30 points that ranged ID-on-6-and-AP2-on-6 would be worth.

I think Sniper should disallow LoS entirely. That's kinda the entire point of sniper rifles.

What if Snipers had: Precision Shots, Rending, Ignores Cover on a To Hit of 6, Wound on a 4+, Pinning?

Kroot snipers cost 7 points and can be taken in squads of 20.

El Torro wrote:
I like the idea of Instant Death on a 6 for sniper rifles. Maybe so that it only works on T4 or below. As said otherwise there a silly scenarios where for example a Carnifex gets one shot killed.

I concur, as a big fan of the Gaunt's Ghosts series where scouts and snipers are used quite often, i'm all for it.

However my opinion is bias, I field a "pathfinder flight" 10 ratlings, so yeah my opinion is very bias.

I think a roll of 6 to hit should have Ignores Cover and a roll of 6 to wound or pen should be Rending. If you roll a 6 on both, it should be ID or do something like ignore all saves.

Here are my thoughts:

Precision 5+
Pinning on -2 L
LOS on -2 (essentially 4+, 6+ respectively char, IC)

6s to hit auto-wound @ap2
OR
6s to wound deal d3 wounds

* both I think represent a critical hit or a sniper hitting your weak spot.

I think making it do d3 wounds on a roll of a six might be better so that the carnifex still doesn't get instakilled

Tau get sniper Kroot for 7 points. In the Allies formation thingie, they have 4 units of them that get BS4 for being near a squad of vespid, and can benefit from coordinated fire. So... that's potentially 80 sniper shots shooting at BS 5 (or more with markerlights). Admittedly this is 650 points-ish including the vespids, but that's a lot of instagibbed carnifexes.

I agree with Grizz, D3 wounds instead of Id, combined with a -2 to LoS, would go a long way to making snipers good without allowing you to one-shot carnifexes while still being quite good against the multi-wound characters it's meant to be good against. That, and it still makes the WK think twice before showing up on the table.

I would kinda like to see something along the lines of once per your shooting phase (once period, not once per unit) that you use a sarge's special rule, call it priority target, and it allows that unit using snipers to attach ID to crits. That would make snipers more useful but not overpowered. It would scare MC and force the enemy to go after that unit.

I just don't think a 1point weapon upgrade should have ID EVER. Pinning sure. reduced cover sure. but ID no way.

a 5 point weapon can ... I do not see the problem with 1 unit can attach ID to 1 round of shots for each shooting phase of yours.