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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Nope. You don't get to do that.

You don't get to pretend like these events are somehow not something we're seeing every God-damned day in America (and occasionally in the UK) and that this kind of amazingly silly behaviour, further increased by social media (and places like Tumblr and Reddit), is just a blip on the radar. Made into a bigger deal than they really are, sure, I'm willing to accept that, but the fact that we keep seeing these things happens means that they are having an impact.

You've got it the wrong way around. You don't get to make claims and then not provide any sort of evidence of what you're claiming. You're claiming that this sort of behaviour is commonplace enough that we should be worried (without even bothering to explain why you feel that the behaviour is troubling in the first place) and get offended when people disagree with you. That's insane.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

As for non-Western non-First World countries? Well of course not. They have real issues to worry about.

Don't worry, there's people huffing about SJWs pretty much everywhere.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:


You've got it the wrong way around. You don't get to make claims and then not provide any sort of evidence of what you're claiming. You're claiming that this sort of behaviour is commonplace enough that we should be worried (without even bothering to explain why you feel that the behaviour is troubling in the first place) and get offended when people disagree with you. That's insane.

Stop infringing on his safe space Walrus. He can think whatever he wants and clearly our only responsible choice is to nod our heads and agree

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
You've got it the wrong way around. You don't get to make claims and then not provide any sort of evidence of what you're claiming. You're claiming that this sort of behaviour is commonplace enough that we should be worried (without even bothering to explain why you feel that the behaviour is troubling in the first place) and get offended when people disagree with you. That's insane.

Actually I asked a question (or several, really):

When did the US get so soft? (pointed out that I should have been broader in this question, and less America-centric, which I concede)
Why do events like this continue to happen?
Are we really approaching a point where this generation of college students will just be so completely incapable of operating outside of their campus safe-spaces that they cease to function?
And what comes after this?

That's what I put forward. Saying "None of this happened." does not constitute a valid response. "None of this is worth worrying about", that's a difference response and is worth discussing. Ouze didn't do that. He just dismissed it all out of hand and did not answer the question/s.

And perhaps it is something that really isn't worth worrying about. Perhaps all this attention (overblown or not) has had the desired effect and made everyone who cared enough to look sit back and go "Nah, this is all far too silly for me!". Perhaps it needs voices from people far more level-headed than I.

 Alpharius wrote:
So, no similar types of 'strange things' happened in 2015 in Australia, the UK, Europe, Asia, etc.?

There seems to be an odd anti-American undercurrent showing up in the OT as of late.

Unless it has always been there?

That would be relatively weird since most users here are US-american (I think) and the majority of OT threads are US-centric topics (insert generic gun-thread here). Plus, there are a lot of army-friendly (service or ex-service) men, who are generally (as far as generalizations go, i.e. not very far) conservative and patriotic, i.e. not very (national-) self-critical.

Maybe you take offense at non-americans discussing controversial US issues? Do you have any examples?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's what I put forward. Saying "None of this happened." does not constitute a valid response. "None of this is worth worrying about", that's a difference response and is worth discussing. Ouze didn't do that. He just dismissed it all out of hand and did not answer the question/s.

That's because that's the appropriate response whens someone is begging the question.

 Polonius wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Why do events like this continue to happen?

Because college students are idiots. Well, not really idiots, but they're suddenly placed in a role where they treated just enough like adults, and given just enough responsibility, that they think they can make a difference. The point isn't what college student papers or governments or other organizations produce, it's that they learn how to work in those structures.

This 10000x times. People feel unfairly treated, start being loud about it with zero actual solutions, just wanting to vent...youth idealism paired with power they should never, ever posses, led by terrible, money-hungry and attention-seeking role models. Add the internet, boom.

In general, personally, it's a very good movement. Such an attitude speaks of and promotes very weak personalities that cannot cope with problems themselves who will ultimatively fail when on their own. Weaklings. Weaklings that can be exploited by stronger personalities - and rightfully so. If you are too lazy to deal with stuff yourself, you deserve to be taken advantage of.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


That's what I put forward. Saying "None of this happened." does not constitute a valid response. "None of this is worth worrying about", that's a difference response and is worth discussing. Ouze didn't do that. He just dismissed it all out of hand and did not answer the question/s.

But that's what Ouze DID say:

 Ouze wrote:
I'm going to tell you that if you are willing to compile a list of 13 non-events and extrapolate that list out to make sweeping observations about a population of 14 million college students, that I can't say anything to make you see why that's foolhardy.

You've just decided to go with these 13 events as if they're representative of the entire college population of the United States, and when Ouze points out how utterly futile that is you get huffy and claim that his main point was that your list was somehow faked (which isn't what he said, he said that there's a tendency to demonize millenials, just like there's always been a "darn kids these days!" thing going, you misunderstood that and thought he was claiming that your list didn't happen).

You're fighting strawmen that you haven't erected on purpose.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Alpharius wrote:
So, no similar types of 'strange things' happened in 2015 in Australia, the UK, Europe, Asia, etc.?

There seems to be an odd anti-American undercurrent showing up in the OT as of late.

Unless it has always been there?

Australia not as much, because the Aussie attitude is generally that we don't care enough to do anything about anything (unless it's sport related!). The UK yes, but not as pronounced, but then again that is most likely due to coverage rates vs actual rates of occurrence. Probably happens just as much but no one covers it.

But that's exactly what I was saying; this sort of thing has *always* been happening, but nobody covered it. Or they did cover it, endlessly, as some monstrous threat to society, yet the world still grinds on about its axis.

My mum was at university in the bra-burning days, and those were just the things that got reported on, believe me some of the stories she told me about the few utter mentalists who were part of that movement would curl your hair, and at the time those folk were considered a big deal and listened to/parroted by a lot of students(I'm not arguing the movement or even those protests were mental, before anyone starts, just pointing out the similarities between the minority of nutters then and the minority of nutters now, as well as the response to them). Yet despite the hysteria about it at the time, last time I checked most women still wear bras, and the next thing on the pyre was not "all the men". Most of the aforementioned mentalists either tottered off into obscurity because folk got tired of them ranting, or had a teeny wee kernel of a point somewhere in their rantings and as they matured from student activist to academic they focused on that and became entirely reasonable people. Most of the folk who parroted the mentalists got degrees and jobs and families and decided that you know what, maybe we can achieve an egalitarian society without castrating all males afterall.

The great likelihood is this is the same sort of thing.

 Yodhrin wrote:
The great likelihood is this is the same sort of thing.

So you're saying it's not so much that instances of these sorts of things have increased, but more to do with the fact that before recently no one was really looking at it?

I can accept that.

 Alpharius wrote:
There seems to be an odd anti-American undercurrent showing up in the OT as of late.

While the OP is just ridiculous outrage for the sake of outrage and being an SJW by proclaiming to be anti-SJW (we went meta quickly in this thread), I'd be interested where the anti-American (assume you mean USA) slant is. There was the Dunkirk film thread, which was not anti-US but rather was anti-Hollywood's nonsense. Then there's the gun threads which frequently get filled with posters claiming that unless you have guns you're living in a tyranny without freedoms and rights. That's such blatant BS to anybody not from the US that those posters, quite rightly, get highly critical responses. Other than that, where's the undercurrent?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:
The great likelihood is this is the same sort of thing.

So you're saying it's not so much that instances of these sorts of things have increased, but more to do with the fact that before recently no one was really looking at it?

I can accept that.

Pretty much. Like I say, student politics has always been a hotbed of total idiocy, the difference these days is the idiots have twitter to amplify themselves and we have extremely partisan news sources who have a vested interest in portraying such amplified idiocy as being mainstream in order to smear political opponents by association. And that's true regardless of which side of the spectrum is cast in which role; I consider the American attitude to guns incredibly unhealthy and can't fathom why anyone wouldn't support gun control, but I can still see when certain outlets are trying to manipulate the debate by equating everyone who's against or hesitant about gun control for any reason with nutters like Bundy and the more extreme elements of the NRA.

Hell, the same thing happens here in Scotland a lot these days - if you believe the media, the country is an Ulsterified powderkeg where rabid bands of SNP "Cybernats" stalk the interwebs and the streets alike seeking babies to eat, and every home in the land is riven by strife as brother turns against brother over whether they voted Yes or No in the referendum. Step away from twitter and the febrile fantasies of the press hacks, however, and most folk are just getting on with their lives as they did before. Hell, I had an old family friend around on boxing day who's so Unionist she voted against us even having a devolved parliament, yet we managed to have a wee dram and a chat without rending the flesh from each others' bones.

When did the US get so soft? (pointed out that I should have been broader in this question, and less America-centric, which I concede)

Never. There's always been a few weirdos in every country. Look at Donald Trump, and he is a serious candidate for President. They provide grist for the 24-hour news/entertainment industry, and social media.

Why do events like this continue to happen?

See the answer above.

Are we really approaching a point where this generation of college students will just be so completely incapable of operating outside of their campus safe-spaces that they cease to function?
No. Most of them will be fine. Except for grammar and mental arithmatic, but there is always Google on your smartphone.

And what comes after this?

The Decline and Fall of Western Civilisation, The Metal Years.

It's not just college... as it's impacting elementary/high schools too.

I think social media plays a huge part in that it keeps the outrage-fires going.

 whembly wrote:
It's not just college... as it's impacting elementary/high schools too.

I think social media plays a huge part in that it keeps the outrage-fires going.

You are correct here. Having easy access to social media amplifies someone's message, declaration, etc. beyond what it might rightfully should be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nope. You don't get to do that.

You don't get to pretend like these events are somehow not something we're seeing every God-damned day in America (and occasionally in the UK) and that this kind of amazingly silly behaviour, further increased by social media (and places like Tumblr and Reddit), is just a blip on the radar. Made into a bigger deal than they really are, sure, I'm willing to accept that, but the fact that we keep seeing these things happens means that they are having an impact.

So answer the question: Why is this happening? Saying "No it's not!" isn't good enough.

It's happening because this is how society evolves.

Someone identifies an issue. Said issue gets blown up all out of proportion. Much discussion, outrage and derision occurs. Eventually, people either decide that it was a non-issue to begin with and get on with their lives, or they realise that there actually is an issue there underneath all of the hyperbole and over-zealous campaigning and some sort middle-ground is found to reduce the impact of said issue as required.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
And an example in Australia where it was ruled that unfriending someone on Facebook constituted workplace bullying. Of course there's a bit more to it than that, but it's not something you can really laugh at now, as much as you want to..

This right here is actually a perfect example of how things get all blown out of proportion. Because it wasn't ruled that unfriending someone on Facebook constituted workplace bullying. That's just the conclusion that an awful lot of people made after reading the news articles about the case, helped along by some really sloppy 'journalism'. There was, as you said, more to it than that... but people just fixated on the one part of the story and saw it as a ridiculous over-reaction.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
When did the US get so soft?

It started in the 60s when the war in Viet Nam heated up and baby boomers found meaning in the anti-war movement. Civil rights, environmentalism, and politics mixed and a new generation found meaning in their miserable lives. Caring became more important than doing.

At least that's my theory.

Every country has its problems. America has soft college kids. Canada created Justin Bieber. Australia "gave" us the unfortunate case of Iggy Azaelia. And Australians, you should all be ashamed for loosing her upon the world.

Also, isn't this thread a straight up attack on America? Kinda surprised rule #1 isn't being called into question on a thread that basically says "America, you're all wusses". Can we get the lock-happy mod up in here?

I find it a little silly to be considered soft as an American, when I was unaware any of this stuff happened.

Good job getting me to open a clickbait link though.....

I don't see a real attack on the USA here. Extrapolating SJWs movements to call an entire society "soft" isn't really relevant, and I guess it's just one of those hyperbolic behaviors Dakkanauts are so fond of.

Oh look, another "SJW TUMBLR FEMINISM RUINS EVERYTHING" whine thread that starts off with blatant exaggerations, out of context clickbait, and general lack of honesty. All I can really conclude here is that the real people who are soft are the writers at the National Review, since they seem to be taking offense at some pretty trivial things and blowing them far out of proportion. But let's go through the list and see just how bad it is:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
1. Hating pumpkin-spice lattes was declared sexist.

Which is only telling a small part of the story. The actual issue here is a perception that things stereotyped as "for women" are singled out for extra contempt and mocking, with a not-always-subtle implication that women deserve contempt because they like those things. Whether or not you agree that this stereotyping and singling-out exists or not it's indisputably a much broader argument than the straw man of "you can't dislike pumpkin-spice lattes".

2. A university language guide stated that the word “American” was “problematic.

And made a very good point in doing so. "America" refers to two entire continents, and the guide is entirely accurate in pointing out that US culture is often considered the default in mixed settings (for example, gaming forums like this one). The fact that there's no other elegant way to refer to people from the US doesn't change the fact that it's not an ideal term.

3. A university study declared that we have to accept people who “identify as real vampires.”

And here we conveniently leave out important context: this is a study about how professional therapists work. If you go back to the original source it's a pretty non-controversial argument that is essentially "don't be a to people". It correctly points out the fact that "real vampires" are perfectly capable of having that identity without it causing problems elsewhere in their life, so if a person is seeking help for an unrelated issue then the best thing to do is just accept that it's what they believe and move on. It's really no different than saying "{minority religion} should be accepted and people with those beliefs should be treated with respect".

4. The word “skinny” was deemed “violent.”

Ok, so it's a bit of an exaggeration to call it "violent", but this is just another boring case of people saying "think about what you say because you might hurt someone even if you don't intend to" and the right-wing anti-SJW crowd acting like it's the end of the world.

5. A university declared the phrase “politically correct” to be politically incorrect.

Well yes, "politically correct" does deserve criticism. The overwhelming majority of the time what it really means is "I want to be a to people and they aren't allowed to complain about it". And the university is entirely accurate in pointing out that when people whine about "politically correct" they're often trying to deflect attention away from their bad behavior and blame everyone else for criticizing them too much.

6. A room full of white people was determined to be a “microaggression”

This is only a problem if you assume that once something is labeled a "microaggression" everyone involved is a Bad Person and needs to be shamed into changing everything they're doing. Take away that assumption and you have a very valid point: that if you're part of a minority group and constantly seeing reminders that you're not part of the majority it probably does make you feel like an outsider.

7. A Harvard study declared that microaggressions can make people die sooner

And if you look at the actual study it says no such thing. The study is a pretty uncontroversial summary of interviews with college students about their experiences with racism and/or sexism, and seems to do little more than report what they said. It strongest conclusion seems to be "even if there aren't KKK rallies on campus women and/or non-white students feel discriminated against, and we should do something about this".

8. Some students were ‘triggered’ by an anti-microaggressions exhibit.

Yeah, because surprising people with posters full of racist quotes they may have heard used against them is such a tiny thing, and we should laugh at anyone who feels bad about it or thinks that it's a pretty tasteless "exhibit"...

9. A student newspaper felt the need to clarify that it was not being transphobic by associating menstruation and tampons with “women.”

Sorry if the truth hurts. Sex and gender are not the same thing, no matter how much right-wing zealots want them to be.

10. The War on Pronouns

Sorry, but I just have to laugh at this. Why exactly is it such a horrible thing to use gender-neutral pronouns instead of using male pronouns by default to refer to mixed-gender groups? The only "soft" people here seem to be the ones complaining about this supposed war on pronouns...

11. A yoga class was cancelled on the grounds that yoga is “cultural appropriation.”

Not enough information available to make any conclusion. It could be an overreaction, but there are problems with tasteless cultural appropriation and this class could have been crossing that line. But the OP seems to be just fine with jumping to the conclusion that it was an overreaction.

12. The War on Charity Events

Oh look, some more wild exaggeration, who could have seen this one coming? Turns out the "war" consists of temporarily delaying an event to change a poster with an (arguably) tasteless joke, and a couple of random students complaining about a scheduling conflict with no administrative action taken against either "side". FFS, if this is the best they can come up with after searching through an entire country full of universities I think it's a pretty convincing statement that the supposed "war" does not exist.

13. A university blamed a student’s clear act of terrorism on the patriarchy.

Yep, another straw man. The actual suggestion was that the situation is more complicated than simply screaming "TERRORISM!!!!!!" over and over again, as if Islam magically turns people into murderers and questioning a person's motivations for an act of terrorism begins and ends with verifying their religious beliefs. More reasonable people, however, can understand that the situation is potentially more complicated than that and ask questions like "why are most terrorists men, and could masculine stereotypes contribute to pushing extremists over the line into actual violence?" or "why do people find extremist ideology appealing?", which is all the event is attempting to discuss.

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh look, another "SJW TUMBLR FEMINISM RUINS EVERYTHING" whine thread that starts off with blatant exaggerations, out of context clickbait, and general lack of honesty.[ ...]

Have an Exalt!

 treslibras wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Oh look, another "SJW TUMBLR FEMINISM RUINS EVERYTHING" whine thread that starts off with blatant exaggerations, out of context clickbait, and general lack of honesty.[ ...]

Have an Exalt!

Have two.

 Peregrine wrote:
But let's go through the list and see just how bad it is: ...

I commend you for taking the effort to dismantle this whole thing. I know I couldn't have been bothered.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I bring this up because of this article. You can read the article if you wish, but the 13 boil down to the following:

1. Hating pumpkin-spice lattes was declared sexist.
2. A university language guide stated that the word “American” was “problematic.
3. A university study declared that we have to accept people who “identify as real vampires.”
4. The word “skinny” was deemed “violent.”
5. A university declared the phrase “politically correct” to be politically incorrect.
6. A room full of white people was determined to be a “microaggression”
7. A Harvard study declared that microaggressions can make people die sooner
8. Some students were ‘triggered’ by an anti-microaggressions exhibit.
9. A student newspaper felt the need to clarify that it was not being transphobic by associating menstruation and tampons with “women.”
10. The War on Pronouns
11. A yoga class was cancelled on the grounds that yoga is “cultural appropriation.”
12. The War on Charity Events

Now regardless of your own opinion of this website's obvious biases, the above items did occur last year and they really have me wondering: When did the US get so soft? Why do events like this continue to happen? Are we really approaching a point where this generation of college students will just be so completely incapable of operating outside of their campus safe-spaces that they cease to function?

And, perhaps a better question, what comes after this? Does this expand to the point where, well, this happens*, or will the next generation (or even the generations above this current student body) finally wise up and reject all this nonesene?



*Obvious exageration, but you get the pont.

This is what happens when a Vocal minority is in a position that questioning them is labeled as attacking, discrimination, racist, sexist ect. News outlets then play to that narrative with little to no information and voices of reason are drummed out by those with louder more insane views. Those making these claims will go so far as to say they are victims of attack if their views are questioned. Most of those that make these outrages claims have never truly been in any real form of oppression and seek to manifest their own dragons to slay.

Universities seem to be the place this stuff has been coming up recently. Some Students who have been babied their whole life step into what is the last level before you enter what some would call "real life". Instead of focusing on their studies or even getting a degree with some prospect of return after college they seek to make "safe" spaces to hide themselves away from the harshness of the real world and get lackluster degrees. Free speech is an ok idea to them until it hurts their feelings or begins to strip the whitewash veneer of the world they grew up believing existed. They learn that this real world is harsh and somewhat unkind. People make jokes that make them feel uncomfortable or confront them with ideas or history that is just too dark or complex for them to really handle. Instead of allowing these experiences to shape them into a more resilient and matured individual they make walls and safe spaces. protest and whine. In the end this will make no lasting change. They will still have to face the world outside of their safe spaces and being so unprepared will mostly fail to adjust. They will soon find out that a liberal arts, or gender studies degree does not work to well in the job market and with the high rate of these degrees any positions are already filled and anything open will be lackluster at best. Some will make their own way and do fine, Most will not.

This silliness will soon fade away and not even be a footnote in history books. if anything it will be a part of some future youtube like site titled as "10 odd things that happened in colleges in 2015." People will laugh at it and use it as odd trivia for game nights.

----------------Added-------

I would like to note that these events and all of those like them are fairly isolated in the grand scheme of things. Most are unaware and these events in of themselves are so odd no one wants to hear it. These things mostly spread on Social sites and these sites make these events feel much bigger than they really are. They are like memes. Yes new memes will pop up but after it has been run into the ground it will die and some new meme will take its place. Any change made by these kind of movements are about as lasting as the weather, Yes it's snowing today but tomorrow it will be about luke warm and muddy outside. After that a tornado and then clear skies.

Best thing to do is ignore it and paint some models or something, if you encounter it in real life point and laugh. then go back to enjoying your life. America has not gone soft my Friend Just the soft ones have a place to be really loud.

Besides this is Dakka Dakka should we not be complaining about how bad GW is while still buying their things and painting their models? That's the best part of the hobby!

I long for the day when Dakka stops thinking that the point of education is to get an employment. Seriously, that's missing the point.

white_wolf wrote:
Instead of allowing these experiences to shape them into a more resilient and matured individual they make walls and safe spaces. protest and whine.

Sweet, sweet irony.

white_wolf wrote:

They will soon find out that a liberal arts, or gender studies degree does not work to well in the job market and with the high rate of these degrees any positions are already filled and anything open will be lackluster at best. Some will make their own way and do fine, Most will not.

I can make the same argument regarding business degrees, accounting degrees, finance degrees, communications degrees, math degrees, physics degrees, chemistry degrees, biology degrees, etc. This notion that liberal arts degrees are not employable is one that needs to die. It is only perpetuated by those who want the stigma to exist.

"PC" people are like vegans or religious people to me : I'm fine with your ideas as long as you don't try to forcefully make me change mine.

(Peregrine, have my exalt)

I've been hearing some form of these complaints for decades. It seems every generation thinks the following ones are problematic.

 dogma wrote:

white_wolf wrote:
Instead of allowing these experiences to shape them into a more resilient and matured individual they make walls and safe spaces. protest and whine.

Sweet, sweet irony.

white_wolf wrote:

They will soon find out that a liberal arts, or gender studies degree does not work to well in the job market and with the high rate of these degrees any positions are already filled and anything open will be lackluster at best. Some will make their own way and do fine, Most will not.

I can make the same argument regarding business degrees, accounting degrees, finance degrees, communications degrees, math degrees, physics degrees, chemistry degrees, biology degrees, etc. This notion that liberal arts degrees are not employable is one that needs to die. It is only perpetuated by those who want the stigma to exist.

I fail to see what you are pointing out as "irony". And if you are trying to invalidate what I am saying then you will need something more than "Sweet, sweet irony."

No I don't think you can, Liberal arts is the study of Subjective things like Art and what most would classify as a Hobby, which is fine if you can write or paint well and make money that's fine but you don't need some piece of paper to do those things. Most of the degrees you listed are what is needed to advance a economy and civilisation as a whole. Yah art is nice but a artist did not make The PC or mobile device you are on nor did they Run the lines to both power and connect your Device to this site and the internet in general and Liberal arts never got a spacecraft into the air. It did however make pretty pictures and stories.

If you have a Liberal arts degree then I would like to know what you are employed doing. While those will liberal arts are "employable" they hardly ever do anything with that degree. There's a reason that notion is around.

Liberal arts isn't just music and art, it's also language, philosophy and anthropology. If you don't understand why the study of languages or social sciences are important or how one could make money off of it (which isn't the point of an education!) then there really is nothing we can do for you.

EDIT: And the irony was that you're whining about how people whine about inconsequential things.