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Hey guys, I finally got to reading all the supplement rules for Raven Guard out of Kauyon and I was impressed. I think the new formations add some very nice ways of getting around the field fast and might even make vanguard vets worth something. I enjoyed their multiple formations for assaulting on the turn they arrive from reserves; Meshing well if you run a Skyhammer formation with them.

So what are your thoughts? Raven Guard have been on the low end of space marine chapters for a while now, but does this update make them worthy of a playable chapter?

What do you think about the warlord traits and chapter tactics? I really like some of them. The Ravens Fury is nice, as it is the same cost as a jump pack but gives you +2 str to hammer of wrath. I also really enjoy swiftstrike and murder, essentially allowing you to make a pseudo Captain Strike that you can actually use.

What do you think?

Good, but require high point values to really get the best usage out of them.

And quite frankly? Ignore Skyhammer, unless you're talking about the one in the book. It's a HUGE crutch.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Good, but require high point values to really get the best usage out of them.

Yeah I have been slowly putting a list together in Battlescribe. The pinion demi-company seems like the best core if your going for their detachment. Otherwise I think combining a few of the smaller formations might be an easier (point effective) approach.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly? Ignore Skyhammer, unless you're talking about the one in the book. It's a HUGE crutch.

You think so? I played it for the first time over the weekend, with my tau, and it was devastating.. essentially stopping all of my overwatch. With so many combat squads and other reserves that came in, I was unable to Intercept everything (and my riptide rolled gets hot.. of course lol ). I can see where it is a point sink given 2 assault squads and 2 dev squads, and needing to kit them up for full effectiveness.

I don't fully remember the Ravenguard skyhammer formation, but I recall it being pretty decent.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Good, but require high point values to really get the best usage out of them.

Yeah I have been slowly putting a list together in Battlescribe. The pinion demi-company seems like the best core if your going for their detachment. Otherwise I think combining a few of the smaller formations might be an easier (point effective) approach.

What I'm meaning is that you can't cheap out on points for the Pinion. If you don't outflank damn near everything? It's not going to work for you. If you don't have full squads? It's not going to work for you. If you don't get to bring on the entirety of the Pinion turn one? It's not going to work for you.

You need to be able to bring the stuff on turn one, and you need to ensure that your Scouts and the units they accompany survive any Interceptor fire. Shrouded+Stealth+Camo Cloaks ensures that can happen--unless you're fighting Tau loaded up with SMS(which REALLY needs to be fixed to only allow fire with no LOS if the target is Markerlit; like the first Tau book had).

All of the Imperial stuff from these campaign books just doesn't work at sub-2000 points from my experience, unless the opposition is trying to do an alpha strike army as well. Raven Guard can be at a huge disadvantage as well if you don't get the right Warlord trait for the list you have. For example, I kept rolling #4 when I was light on assault units and my Warlord was a 'sniper' Chapter Master kitted out with the boltgun and Shrouded armor, attached to my Devastators.

Also? If you're fielding Scouts for the Pinion; go sniper heavy if possible. It helps a lot to be able to have Ignores Cover sniper teams trading off between themselves and going after bunkered up units that are going to give your assault-y units a hard time. Helps a bit more as well if you throw in a Vindicare or Callidus to go after some of those as well.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And quite frankly? Ignore Skyhammer, unless you're talking about the one in the book. It's a HUGE crutch.

You think so? I played it for the first time over the weekend, with my tau, and it was devastating.. essentially stopping all of my overwatch. With so many combat squads and other reserves that came in, I was unable to Intercept everything (and my riptide rolled gets hot.. of course lol ). I can see where it is a point sink given 2 assault squads and 2 dev squads, and needing to kit them up for full effectiveness.

The reason I say that is because Skyhammer is a huge crutch. If you actually want a feel for running Raven Guard? Don't bother with that particular formation. You can be just as effectively nasty using just the Pinion and some other stuff that can come in via turn one Reserve rolls. Things like the Shadowstrike Kill Team with 4 Scout Squads infiltrated/scout moved up to forward positions and bringing the Vanguard in right off the bat, along with the Skyhammer Orbital Force from the book drop podding down into the line and Land Speeders doing Assault Cannon runs can be just devastating.

Maybe throw in a Ravenhawk Assault Group or Raptor Wing or a Storm Wing even to go after priority targets and call it a day.

I don't fully remember the Ravenguard skyhammer formation, but I recall it being pretty decent.

1-3 units of Land Speeders, 3 Tactical Squads mounted in Drop Pods.
Designate a point on the battlefield to be the Formation's dropsite and units from the formation re-roll To Hit/To Wound rolls of 1 against enemy units within 12" of that point and Drop Pods from the formation that arrive from DSR within 12" of that point scatter D6 rather than 2D6. Additionally, the Tactical Squads can Run and then shoot on the turn they disembark from their Drop Pods.

It's not stupidly broken like the one that every chump and their mother runs from crummy PDF scans.

I like a lot of the new formations. They seem fluffy, fun, but not over the top broken. I’ve considered running them for small point armies. As an Ultramarine, I cant take the Pinion, so I’m better off sticking with the gladius for larger games, and the old formations.

But for RG players who can use the whole package, I think there is a lot of potential there.

 Nevelon wrote:
I like a lot of the new formations. They seem fluffy, fun, but not over the top broken. I’ve considered running them for small point armies. As an Ultramarine, I cant take the Pinion, so I’m better off sticking with the gladius for larger games, and the old formations.

But for RG players who can use the whole package, I think there is a lot of potential there.

Any Chapter can use the Formations, including the Pinion. You cannot take the Talon Strike Force(the Detachment) as anyone but Raven Guard.

So if you want to run Pinion as Ultramarines? Go for it. Might actually be a hell of a lot nastier for you, given that Doctrines actually will work for Ultramarines without needing to be running Gladius Strike Force.

Oops, my bad. I got the top level formation names mixed up.

As I’ve been building playing more FA centric lists lately, the RG and WS formations look like a blast. My soft spot for 1st & 10th lists is also being poked.

I think the ability to use the top level formation will help make a more cohesive force, but most of the individual parts look solid.

if only the talon strike force was Ravenguard and their successors! Raptors and their character Lias Issodon would have a field day.

Still, I'd say the pinion is so-so alone, but the talon strike force has allot going for it.

 Kanluwen wrote:
..... It's not stupidly broken like the one that every chump and their mother runs from crummy PDF scans.

All good points in your post. I agree on this last bit as well. Being able to run and shoot and preferred enemy against units in that 24" bubble is really good.. not stupidly broken.. but definitely good.

My intention was to go more fluffy then competitive anyway. I love vanguard jump packs with lightning claws and sniper scouts.

I am running a Raptor Wing with two Assault Cannon Speeders (aren't they called Tornados?). Being able to have the Stormtalons come in automatically on Turn 2 is very nice and removes variability. I like that the speeders grant Tank Hunters and Shred. It increases the potency of the Stormtalons quite a bit. The Pinion BDC is very nice with its ability to scout stuff in. The Shadowstrike Kill Team paired with the Talon Strike Force is very nice with its ability to come in automatically Turn 1, reduce scatter, and charge out of Deep Strike.

I am really disappointed that the big formations are exclusive. I would actually consider the Talon Strike Force if they weren't. Maybe Imperial Fists will get their own formation that favors their style of combat.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am running a Raptor Wing with two Assault Cannon Speeders (aren't they called Tornados?). Being able to have the Stormtalons come in automatically on Turn 2 is very nice and removes variability. I like that the speeders grant Tank Hunters and Shred. It increases the potency of the Stormtalons quite a bit. The Pinion BDC is very nice with its ability to scout stuff in. The Shadowstrike Kill Team paired with the Talon Strike Force is very nice with its ability to come in automatically Turn 1, reduce scatter, and charge out of Deep Strike.

I am really disappointed that the big formations are exclusive. I would actually consider the Talon Strike Force if they weren't. Maybe Imperial Fists will get their own formation that favors their style of combat.

Good to know! I liked that stormtalon formation as well.. regretting selling most of my marine stuff a while back now

The Raptorwing is nice for splashing a little AA into your list. Lower buy in then the Stormwing, as you only need a speeder, not a stormraven. And how many flyers do you need on the table in a reasonably sized game? A pair of talons should cover you.

The re-rolls wounds/pens for the talons is very nice. The 2nd turn reserve thing is good for ground support, but sometimes is going to be a drawback. If you are dogfighting, you usually want to come in second, so you get the first shot in.

 Nevelon wrote:
The Raptorwing is nice for splashing a little AA into your list. Lower buy in then the Stormwing, as you only need a speeder, not a stormraven. And how many flyers do you need on the table in a reasonably sized game? A pair of talons should cover you.

The re-rolls wounds/pens for the talons is very nice. The 2nd turn reserve thing is good for ground support, but sometimes is going to be a drawback. If you are dogfighting, you usually want to come in second, so you get the first shot in.

Is it auto turn 2 or can you decide?

yeah that formation is cheap considering.. skyhammer talons are only 115 each.. probably want your speeder in that squad to be misslepod or hbolters for range.. but 300 for a unit that can handle flyers and shred even AV14 is awesome!

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:
The Raptorwing is nice for splashing a little AA into your list. Lower buy in then the Stormwing, as you only need a speeder, not a stormraven. And how many flyers do you need on the table in a reasonably sized game? A pair of talons should cover you.

The re-rolls wounds/pens for the talons is very nice. The 2nd turn reserve thing is good for ground support, but sometimes is going to be a drawback. If you are dogfighting, you usually want to come in second, so you get the first shot in.

Is it auto turn 2 or can you decide?

yeah that formation is cheap considering.. skyhammer talons are only 115 each.. probably want your speeder in that squad to be misslepod or hbolters for range.. but 300 for a unit that can handle flyers and shred even AV14 is awesome!

As long as the Raptor Wing is in Reserves at the start of the controlling player's second turn, they arrive automatically.

I really liked it. Talon Strike Force has really good benefits.

I have a question: with Pinion Battle Demi-company, do I have to determine which units are being led by outflnaking Scouts before or after the reserve roll?
And if I fail the reserve roll (2nd turn) with the Scouts, do the led unit must roll too or can they stick at reserves?

 Vector Strike wrote:
I really liked it. Talon Strike Force has really good benefits.

I have a question: with Pinion Battle Demi-company, do I have to determine which units are being led by outflnaking Scouts before or after the reserve roll?
And if I fail the reserve roll (2nd turn) with the Scouts, do the led unit must roll too or can they stick at reserves?

Since you put both the Scouts and the unit they're leading into Reserves at the same time, it's helpful to make sure you kind of "group" them under the table or wherever you are keeping your Reserves at.

The Wayfinders special rule makes it so that you roll for the Scout Squad, not the unit being led. Remember that if you run the Talon Strike Force you get to start making Reserve rolls on turn one.

 Bryan01 wrote:
if only the talon strike force was Ravenguard and their successors! Raptors and their character Lias Issodon would have a field day.

Still, I'd say the pinion is so-so alone, but the talon strike force has allot going for it.

Do the Raptors use their own Chapter Tactics or do they use the Raven Guard ones?

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Bryan01 wrote:
if only the talon strike force was Ravenguard and their successors! Raptors and their character Lias Issodon would have a field day.

Still, I'd say the pinion is so-so alone, but the talon strike force has allot going for it.

Do the Raptors use their own Chapter Tactics or do they use the Raven Guard ones?

It's Raptors Chapter Tactics, but they use "Strike From the Shadows" per the Raven Guard.

Likely whenever Forge World finally updates the Badab War Chapter Tactics, Raptors will get to use the Pinion.