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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sigh. You guys are still completely missing the point. I've explained it twice, go reread it until you understand that its a matter of relativity.

No, not at all. Fire caste are not tau supersoldiers. They are a warrior caste, and are better at war than the other castes, but not by that much. SMs are far more than just really strong humans. The difference in capabilities is massive for human vs SM, but no so much for fire vs earth.

I'm sure tau would love to create super-soldiers, but for it to mesh with tau thinking it would have to be safe, efficient, and not massively expensive. And they don't have the tech for that yet. And it would probably focus more on reactivitly and skill than physical stuff, as that's how tau roll.

It's more probable the Tau are going to go down the cybernetics and technology route than biological enhancement. The P.E.N chips are just an early experiment in cybernetics and they have their suits they neural link into. It won't be too long until they can just become cyborgs or have some in testing. Would be a cool elite choice issuing them jetpacks and bigger guns. Easier to mass produce and safer.. mostly if they can work out PEN chip removal problems.

My two cents:

Many of you have brought up very valid points, which I'd like to attempt to coalesce into "my answer".

Point 1: The God Emperor of Mankind made the advancements needed to create geneseeds and the space marines (not the "common man"). AFAIK - no other race has been able to match the Emperor's specific intellect/ability. My interpretation of the fluff (albeit - mostly based on pre 6th fluff) is that for all practical intents and purposes - the Emperor was the human embodiment of the abrahamic concept of god. All knowing. All powerful. Kinda' like a Space Jesus. (in fact, I recall reading an older article on lexicanum about how it's rumored that every great shaman/priest/religious figure from mankinds history was actually the emperor, as he was described as immortal in this article)

Point 2: From a players perspective - the army choices available for each race are more or less the same to varying levels of effect. You have HQs, Elites, Troops, etc etc. They achieved these tiers of troops through the individual circumstances pertinent to said race. So as Houndsofdemos brought up - humanity is at a distinct disadvantage after the Age of Technology and the beginning of war. Humans are unable to advance their technology, and over time lost the ability to reproduce or even maintain current technologies. This is why the 'standard template construction' (forget the official nomenclature) items are so vital to AdMech / IOM - because without this lost knowledge - most human planets would devolve as far as stone age cultures in some cases. Meanwhile, the Tau have an abundance of resources and the understanding/comprehension of the technology so integral to not just war but their entire way of life. I'd wager that the average Tau citizen knows more about math/science than most Imperial citizens. With the added bonus of not having a dogmatic disdain for other species, thus allowing them to also learn not just from their own research but that of others. In fact were it not for IOM - the Tau would've been unable to learn to use Warp Jumps (albeit in the limited fashion they do). What they lack is warm bodies. As cited time and time again (almost at the beginning of every story) readers of the Tau codex are reminded that due to the young species booming expansion, Fire Cast personnel are stretched woefully thin, which is why Greet, Kroot, and other species were recruited into their forces (for various fluffy reasons). Why sacrifice countless lives already in short supply when you can just enhance the finest of your warriors with the hottest and most certifiably bad ass tech at your disposal?

Point 3: As has been stated several times and ways, and as I briefly stated early on - Every race already does have their equivalent of a "Marine". Taking a look at humanity's history, we find in fact that marines are an ancient specification of soldier (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marines#History) dating officially as far back as Spain in the 1500s, and in concept as far back as the Greeks and China's Han dynasty. So with this in mind (and accepting that this was all ultimately dreamed up by humans) its not too much of a stretch to understand both why every race would not only have their version of a specialized type of soldier but actually downright need it as much as it needs fire and air support.

Tau did try to create super soldiers using the Puretide chip. If I remember correctly from the Farsight Enclaves, that backfired spectacularly. But for them, Space Marines would be the battlesuits. It's simply a matter of cultural differences (why enhance the flesh when you can build a robot and train someone to do it? At least if the guy dies you can salvage the robot).

From a fluff standpoint, every race has them in one form or another. That's why the Elites choice exist. However not every single army gets fleshed out like the Imperial Armies, so their elite super-caste are relegated to just an entry or two, rather than an army proper. Like, Necron Destroyers are apparently a cult of their own and would totally fit the mold of "Necron Space Marines" in the supersoldier department, but are we fleshed out on what specific technologies the cult use, much less how individual sections of the cult behaves? Nope. Meanwhile we're up in arms because ONE chapter of marines isn't as strong as the remaining 1000 or so, when really they should be the ones that are just two or three elites choices in an IG army.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Tau did try to create super soldiers using the Puretide chip. If I remember correctly from the Farsight Enclaves, that backfired spectacularly. But for them, Space Marines would be the battlesuits. It's simply a matter of cultural differences (why enhance the flesh when you can build a robot and train someone to do it? At least if the guy dies you can salvage the robot).

From a fluff standpoint, every race has them in one form or another. That's why the Elites choice exist. However not every single army gets fleshed out like the Imperial Armies, so their elite super-caste are relegated to just an entry or two, rather than an army proper. Like, Necron Destroyers are apparently a cult of their own and would totally fit the mold of "Necron Space Marines" in the supersoldier department, but are we fleshed out on what specific technologies the cult use, much less how individual sections of the cult behaves? Nope. Meanwhile we're up in arms because ONE chapter of marines isn't as strong as the remaining 1000 or so, when really they should be the ones that are just two or three elites choices in an IG army.

I had been unaware of the intimate details of other races, but I think the biggest point I took from your post is the fact that AFAIK - The Imperium is the only "race" to have several armies dedicated to their own variations/tactics. AdMech, Sororitas, Inquisition, GK, AA, IG (or AdMil as its now known), The Titan Legions, and anyone else I forgot to mention carrying the Imperial standard.

Imperial Forces are far more fleshed out than any other race. Take the humble Dreadnought for example. We have a variant three variants for the Blood Angels, two variants for the Space Wolves, three variants for the vanilla space marines, 1 variant for the Dark Angels (technically they invented the Mortis) and the Chaplain Dreadnought from Forge World.

By contrast, despite it being explicitly stated no two Meks ever work alike, we have a grand total of one variant of the Deff Dread (maybe a bit more if you count the MegaDreads and MekaDreads), where you'd think maybe there'd be a type where it has treads instead of legs, has way more choppiness, mounts a shokk attack gun, or something like that.

 Gamgee wrote:
It's more probable the Tau are going to go down the cybernetics and technology route than biological enhancement. The P.E.N chips are just an early experiment in cybernetics and they have their suits they neural link into. It won't be too long until they can just become cyborgs or have some in testing. Would be a cool elite choice issuing them jetpacks and bigger guns. Easier to mass produce and safer.. mostly if they can work out PEN chip removal problems.

A part of me likes the idea that despite other factions being more technologically advanced (though I'm kind of old school in mostly thinking of Eldar in those terms) the Imperium, mostly due to the Emperor's direct influence, is dominant in terms of bio-engineering (excepting Tyranids). As such, anyone trying to replicate Space Marine capabilities will be playing catch up and will be even less efficient.

That's just me though.

Animus wrote:
Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.

Eh, a 90-99% death rate to get a super-soldier about on-par with an Aspect Warrior, trained Dark Eldar or Necron Warrior doesn't really scream 'I'm better at this than everyone in the setting' to me.

Robin5t wrote:

Animus wrote:
Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.

Eh, a 90-99% death rate to get a super-soldier about on-par with an Aspect Warrior, trained Dark Eldar or Necron Warrior doesn't really scream 'I'm better at this than everyone in the setting' to me.

I'd say they're a little past on par. A few hundred Marines have rolled worlds, including tomb worlds, before.

Animus wrote:

Robin5t wrote:

Animus wrote:
Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.

Eh, a 90-99% death rate to get a super-soldier about on-par with an Aspect Warrior, trained Dark Eldar or Necron Warrior doesn't really scream 'I'm better at this than everyone in the setting' to me.

I'd say they're a little past on par. A few hundred Marines have rolled worlds, including tomb worlds, before.

Going by Fallen Angels, they were originally a %10-%5 mortality rate, seeing as how getting a 1% mortality rate was even possible at all on a non-Forge World / non-Emperor-overwatched-Chapter. Even if the mortality rate were to quintuple, you would still have upwards of 75% of your recruits making it through the transformation alive. Does anybody have a source for the 99% mortality rate, because such a mortality rate would have rendered such Chapters as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves extinct millenia ago?

The orks are the pinnacle of a war like genetically engingeered species imo.

If, like some posters have, we stretch the interpritation of "super soldier" then we have cases of non tyranid, non ork evolved "super" beings in the ogryns and other abhumans. Some are even comparable to the space marines but most are not. There are cases of four legged humans, beast like humans and those old short, bearded, technologically advanced fellows known as the s------Classified by order of the Inquisition--- who could all be considered super Soldiers in the same way as the tau does. These are off course far diffrent from an actual "super soldier" like the primarchs or the custodes.

 dusara217 wrote:
such a mortality rate would have rendered such Chapters as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves extinct millenia ago?

'Why are they not extinct by now' is actually a good question, not because of the recruitment rate, but because of the (alleged) rate of combat casualties.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Sigh. You guys are still completely missing the point. I've explained it twice, go reread it until you understand that its a matter of relativity.

No, not at all. Fire caste are not tau supersoldiers. They are a warrior caste, and are better at war than the other castes, but not by that much. SMs are far more than just really strong humans. The difference in capabilities is massive for human vs SM, but no so much for fire vs earth.

I'm sure tau would love to create super-soldiers, but for it to mesh with tau thinking it would have to be safe, efficient, and not massively expensive. And they don't have the tech for that yet. And it would probably focus more on reactivitly and skill than physical stuff, as that's how tau roll.

This. The average Fire Warrior only has the edge over the average Guardsman in terms of technology and training. That's about the extent of it.


Tau Battlesuits, from my perspective, are in a league all their own. They are more closely related to combat walkers, like the Sentinel, than actual power armored infantry like the Astartes or Sororitas.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I've never seen any fluff that a fire-warrior is any where close as to a Marine is endurance, strength or speed.

The question was "Why don't other races use technology to create super-soldiers".

Well. Fire Warriors are what happens when you try and turn a Tau into a super-soldier.

He's a bit gak, compared to a human super-soldier.

But he's still a super-soldier to the Tau.

Simply put: Other races do create super-soldiers. Craftworld Eldar create Exarchs. Dark Eldar create Grotesques. Tau create the Fire Caste. Old Ones create Orks (and Eldar).

Tyranids just... make Tyranids.

These are all "Super-Soldiers". Don't be fooled by the lack of a 4-by-4s stat line and power armour.

I wouldn't say super soldier as they're selectively bred not genetically engineered, but it's similar enough. Basically you could class the different castes as different species of the Tau. They're more like the Ogryn of the Tau actually in this sense.

As it was mentionned before, some race do have some sort of super-warriors «à la Space Marine». Dark Eldar do have Grotesques and Scourges with capacities far behond that of any Dark Eldar and actually superior to that of a Space Marine.

Eldar themselves are a genetic experiment to produce the ultimate warriors. Before the Fall, Eldar could use their formitable psychic powers in a much less carefull fashion. Their basic warrior might be something closer to a Warlock.

Orks are also a genetic experiment that created the most successful and warlike species in the galaxie. Ork nobz and warbosses can easily match the pinacle of the Space Marine.

As for Tyranid, well I would say that a carnifex is way more impressive than a Space Marine and both fill the same niche ironically.

There are lots of alien super-soldiers that are on par with Marines. They just don't have the numbers or support.

Even an Ork Nob is gonna be more powerful 1 on 1 than a Marine.

epronovost wrote:
As it was mentionned before, some race do have some sort of super-warriors «à la Space Marine». Dark Eldar do have Grotesques and Scourges with capacities far behond that of any Dark Eldar and actually superior to that of a Space Marine.

Eldar themselves are a genetic experiment to produce the ultimate warriors. Before the Fall, Eldar could use their formitable psychic powers in a much less carefull fashion. Their basic warrior might be something closer to a Warlock.

Orks are also a genetic experiment that created the most successful and warlike species in the galaxie. Ork nobz and warbosses can easily match the pinacle of the Space Marine.

As for Tyranid, well I would say that a carnifex is way more impressive than a Space Marine and both fill the same niche ironically.

In regards to the (non-freaky) Eldar, I could see their "basic" line troops being that formidable during the days of the Empire. But in the 41st Millennium? The Guardians (with the exception of the Black Guardians) are the Eldar equivalent of rank and file Imperial Guardsmen and Fire Warrior grunts (at least in the fluff). And I don't recall there being anything super psychically special about the Guardians in combat situations. Or even being a match against a force of Astartes, except in numbers.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

epronovost wrote:
As it was mentionned before, some race do have some sort of super-warriors «à la Space Marine». Dark Eldar do have Grotesques and Scourges with capacities far behond that of any Dark Eldar and actually superior to that of a Space Marine.

Eldar themselves are a genetic experiment to produce the ultimate warriors. Before the Fall, Eldar could use their formitable psychic powers in a much less carefull fashion. Their basic warrior might be something closer to a Warlock.

Orks are also a genetic experiment that created the most successful and warlike species in the galaxie. Ork nobz and warbosses can easily match the pinacle of the Space Marine.

As for Tyranid, well I would say that a carnifex is way more impressive than a Space Marine and both fill the same niche ironically.

In regards to the (non-freaky) Eldar, I could see their "basic" line troops being that formidable during the days of the Empire. But in the 41st Millennium? The Guardians (with the exception of the Black Guardians) are the Eldar equivalent of rank and file Imperial Guardsmen and Fire Warrior grunts (at least in the fluff). And I don't recall there being anything super psychically special about the Guardians in combat situations. Or even being a match against a force of Astartes, except in numbers.

In the days of the Empire the Eldar had machines they called Psychomatons to fight for them. With a formidable blend of unfettered psychic capability and technological prowess the stars lived and died at their command. Why perform grotesque experiments on ones self when you were already perfect?

The decent into madness and the fall changed all that. No more robots to do all your fighting for you. An evil god waiting to eat your soul if you pushed yourself too hard psychically. Making Eldar marines would require chopping up and experimenting on what few Eldar were left. Why do this when they already have powered armor, form fitting and befitting the Eldar's natural strengths, that is just as good as SM power armor? Weapons that are just as good or better, Seers to scry the future, and all of their other advantages. Guardians are never used lightly. They are supposed to only be called in times of dire need. They are not professional soldiers - they are draftees.

Dark Eldar, on the other hand, already kind of do. Wracks and Scourges are all examples of Dark Eldar genetic engineering upon the Eldar race. Grotesques are monsterous flesh shaped constructs, but they belong to a wide variety of species. Be they Tau, human, ork, etc. in origin.

For that matter, even the basic dark eldar warrior - the bulk of Kabalites are 'halfborn' - essentially clone troopers churned out of vats by the covens. The 'trueborn' are the only 'normal' dark eldar.

 oldravenman3025 wrote:

epronovost wrote:
As it was mentionned before, some race do have some sort of super-warriors «à la Space Marine». Dark Eldar do have Grotesques and Scourges with capacities far behond that of any Dark Eldar and actually superior to that of a Space Marine.

Eldar themselves are a genetic experiment to produce the ultimate warriors. Before the Fall, Eldar could use their formitable psychic powers in a much less carefull fashion. Their basic warrior might be something closer to a Warlock.

Orks are also a genetic experiment that created the most successful and warlike species in the galaxie. Ork nobz and warbosses can easily match the pinacle of the Space Marine.

As for Tyranid, well I would say that a carnifex is way more impressive than a Space Marine and both fill the same niche ironically.

In regards to the (non-freaky) Eldar, I could see their "basic" line troops being that formidable during the days of the Empire. But in the 41st Millennium? The Guardians (with the exception of the Black Guardians) are the Eldar equivalent of rank and file Imperial Guardsmen and Fire Warrior grunts (at least in the fluff). And I don't recall there being anything super psychically special about the Guardians in combat situations. Or even being a match against a force of Astartes, except in numbers.

Fluff wise in 40k the basic troop choice for the Craftworlds would be the Dire Avengers. The Guardians are the Eldar version of the Home Guard, civilian soldiers that are only called to fight in dire situations when there are not enough Aspect warriors to get the job done. A Guardian is never going to be as strong or as durable as a Space Marine but it would be a mistake to think of them as human, they may be civilians but they are still Eldar and come with all the same natural advantages that entails.

During the time of the Eldar Empire the Eldar did not actually do any of the fighting themselves instead all the fighting was done by what was called "spirit-drones and Psychomations" . The closest thing i can think of are the things the Iron-Warriors encountered in Angel Exterminatus.

As for why the other races dont create their own super soldiers i believe they do but in very different ways.

For example:

Human< Augmented Human< Space Marine
Eldar< Aspect Warrior< Exarch< Phoenix Lord
Ork< Ork Nobz< Warboss< Bigger Warboss< Even Bigger Warboss
Tau< Fire Warrior< Battle Suit< Better Battle Suit< Even Better Battle Suit

Each archives the same thing but in different ways.

Can't speak for most races as i dont like 40k's version of Mankind, and I havent read the new Tau book but I have read everything eldar related I could find (more often then not it ends up being unfortunate.)
From an Eldar perspective, they wont make super soldiers for two reasons. 1. They already see they're Aspect Warriors as being on par with Space Marines, and in alot of respects they're fairly even trading strength and sheer durability for blinding speed and crazy maneuverability. 2. The most important reason in my mind is quite simply the Eldar mindset, the eldar of the Craftworlds see themselves as the pinnacle of whatever they set their minds to and genetically altering themselves would basically be saying theres a way we can be better. I believe in Commoraugh, the Dark Eldar have a somewhat similar sentiment, and refuse to make anything better than they already are, making the Kabalite vatborn stronger, smarter, or faster would only serve to have the trueborn overthrown by their own "lesser creations. To me its not that the eldar cant make the ultimate warriors so much as they believe themselves to be there already. And while the eldar do get more attention from GW than many other xeno races in game they really aren't fleshed out to the point where you can see Aspect Warriors being on par with Space Marines.

 dusara217 wrote:

Animus wrote:

Robin5t wrote:

Animus wrote:
Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.

Eh, a 90-99% death rate to get a super-soldier about on-par with an Aspect Warrior, trained Dark Eldar or Necron Warrior doesn't really scream 'I'm better at this than everyone in the setting' to me.

I'd say they're a little past on par. A few hundred Marines have rolled worlds, including tomb worlds, before.

Going by Fallen Angels, they were originally a %10-%5 mortality rate, seeing as how getting a 1% mortality rate was even possible at all on a non-Forge World / non-Emperor-overwatched-Chapter. Even if the mortality rate were to quintuple, you would still have upwards of 75% of your recruits making it through the transformation alive. Does anybody have a source for the 99% mortality rate, because such a mortality rate would have rendered such Chapters as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves extinct millenia ago?

99% is full of gak. Probably closer to >10%.
If we take Ian Watsons. Space Marine. The only fully fleshed out scout to marine story. Theres 4 or 5 scout squads and only 1 who died from his implants. The Ossmondula went berzerk. Now theres a chapter whos thing is that. Bone dragons? But no one wants to here about his quantum isoptoes is under .05 so his body fits.

As for the BA recruitment. A generation on a rad soaked planet is probably only every 10 years. We call a decade a generation, when were fit and healthy. Though after the IFs have been slaughtered in the latest book.
Im starting to suspect if Dante is a BA. Da da da

123ply wrote:
If humans had the technology to create primarches and space marines, why can't other races do it? Don't tell me it's cause they don't have"geneseeds" is there an actual reason as to why the eldar or tau haven't created their own super soldiers yet?

oi! Hi der! Thot sounds like proper fun! I cutz up me boyz every Friday after watching da Friend's rerunz! Gah!

the ancient wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

Animus wrote:

Robin5t wrote:

Animus wrote:
Others have turned their hand to genetic engineering, but no one else has the capability to blend science and sorcery as well as the Emperor.

Eh, a 90-99% death rate to get a super-soldier about on-par with an Aspect Warrior, trained Dark Eldar or Necron Warrior doesn't really scream 'I'm better at this than everyone in the setting' to me.

I'd say they're a little past on par. A few hundred Marines have rolled worlds, including tomb worlds, before.

Going by Fallen Angels, they were originally a %10-%5 mortality rate, seeing as how getting a 1% mortality rate was even possible at all on a non-Forge World / non-Emperor-overwatched-Chapter. Even if the mortality rate were to quintuple, you would still have upwards of 75% of your recruits making it through the transformation alive. Does anybody have a source for the 99% mortality rate, because such a mortality rate would have rendered such Chapters as the Blood Angels and Space Wolves extinct millenia ago?

99% is full of gak. Probably closer to >10%.
If we take Ian Watsons. Space Marine. The only fully fleshed out scout to marine story. Theres 4 or 5 scout squads and only 1 who died from his implants. The Ossmondula went berzerk. Now theres a chapter whos thing is that. Bone dragons? But no one wants to here about his quantum isoptoes is under .05 so his body fits.

As for the BA recruitment. A generation on a rad soaked planet is probably only every 10 years. We call a decade a generation, when were fit and healthy. Though after the IFs have been slaughtered in the latest book.
Im starting to suspect if Dante is a BA. Da da da

Actually, its noted as a 98% success rate. Bear in mind that this is acknowledged as beyond the normal, and is at the middle of the Great Crusade, so technology was still improving.

How about morality as a reason other species have chosen not to genetically modify their form?

Either that or ridiculously OTT arrogance about their superiority or perfection of form?

I would think that a far simpler and realistic reason.

Humans on the other had have somewhat looser morales