Is Eternal Warrior outdated?

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**Bobthehero**

Which is stupid but eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeh

That's why medusas are a thing, I guess. And I think stuff like Manticore Missiles, Battlecannons and Earthshakers should be able to penetrate any armor worn by infantry, but we can't have nice things, apparently.

**Peregrine**

Ashiraya wrote:
Said shell (assuming we're talking battle cannon/earthshaker?) would just bounce off the model's artificer armour anyway, as if it was little more than a bayonette.

This. It's important to remember that high-end power armor is really durable. It's quite likely that the chapter will be able to hose out the bloody remains of a space marine after their armor is hit by an earthshaker shell and give the priceless relic to another worthy member of the chapter. This is why you should always follow an artillery barrage with dedicated anti-armor weapons to destroy the armor and prevent it from being used against you in the future.

**Bobthehero**

Or what Peregrine said, that works too, eh.

**Ashiraya**

As long as everything falls flat before your artillery you're happy, eh?

**Bobthehero**

Mhmm, haven't played much with my DKoK these past times, anyways, mostly been rolling out with my Scions.

So uh... make hotshot str: D

**Ashiraya**

Hotshots bounce off artificer armour as well, even if they had been D.

I love AA.

**Bobthehero**

I can give rending to my guns.

**vipoid**

Tactical_Spam wrote:
vipoid wrote:
NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

I find it worrying that you apparently see nothing wrong with that statement.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
near misses, other random plot events.

Firstly, isn't that the point of a to-wound roll of 1 always failing? Second, why is it that "random plot events" can only protect arbitrary characters? Why can't they protect an Archon? Or a SM sergeant destined for greatness? Or even an IG sergeant?

**Luke_Prowler**

Bobthehero wrote:
but we can't have nice things, apparently.

Which is hilarious coming from you, since the crux of your argument is "I don't like it that other people are allowed to have nice things".

**Breng77**

I think what people need to remember is that this is a game. As such it is designed in a specific way, currently that design involves lots of high cost special characters, many of which due to lack of EW are garbage. Essentially if it is highly likely for my 200+ point character to die before it does anything it won't get taken. Is it "realistic" for these characters to tank artillery shells, probably not, but in general dodging/evasion is not part of the game either.

If you are going to eliminate things like multiple wounds and EW you should also eliminate high cost leaders all together and have most HQ models run 50 points because all the fancy offensive stats in the world don't matter when you are dead.

I said it earlier in the thread both EW and instant death should be done away with in game and be replaced by a system where weapons due more wounds to a target based on the difference between the weapon strength and the targets toughness.

**Tactical_Spam**

vipoid wrote:
Tactical_Spam wrote:
vipoid wrote:
NorseSig wrote:

Another way to look at it is Eternal warrior on those units would serve as a way to demonstrate their intelligence.

By what possible measure?

Marneus Calgar determines what will hurt him before it hits so he knows when to dodge anything lethal

I find it worrying that you apparently see nothing wrong with that statement

Thats what my Spiritual liege said and I'm gonna take it

**vipoid**

Breng77 wrote:
I think what people need to remember is that this is a game.

Agreed - hence there should be no plot armour.

Breng77 wrote:
As such it is designed in a specific way

'Badly.'

Breng77 wrote:
currently that design involves lots of high cost special characters, many of which due to lack of EW are garbage. Essentially if it is highly likely for my 200+ point character to die before it does anything it won't get taken.

Another way to look at it is that characters with EW make all other characters look bad by being ridiculously survivable for their cost.

Breng77 wrote:

If you are going to eliminate things like multiple wounds and EW you should also eliminate high cost leaders all together and have most HQ models run 50 points because all the fancy offensive stats in the world don't matter when you are dead.

Well, I certainly wouldn't want to remove multiple wounds.

Breng77 wrote:

I said it earlier in the thread both EW and instant death should be done away with in game and be replaced by a system where weapons due more wounds to a target based on the difference between the weapon strength and the targets toughness.

How would that work? As in, how many points over the target's toughness would a weapon need to be to cause 2 wounds or 3?

I'm presuming it's not a 1:1 ratio otherwise it might as well be ID in most cases.

**Melissia**

vipoid wrote:
With the game now including Gargantuan Creatures and other units that belong in Apocalypse, does anyone else think marine-sized models having EW is a little silly?

No, I think that including GCs and other unitst hat belong in Apocalypse is silly.

**vipoid**

Melissia wrote:
vipoid wrote:
With the game now including Gargantuan Creatures and other units that belong in Apocalypse, does anyone else think marine-sized models having EW is a little silly?

No, I think that including GCs and other unitst hat belong in Apocalypse is silly.

Can't argue with that.

**jreilly89**

Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

**A Town Called Malus**

jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

I play tau, my named characters already do that

**vipoid**

jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

**Slayer-Fan123**

vipoid wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10. In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

**vipoid**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10.

But why does he need it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

But, again, why should Chapter Masters get EW and not other HQs?

You talk about S8-9 weapons being too much of a risk when he isn't on a bike, but what about characters who need bikes just to reach T4? If they can manage without EW then so can a Chapter Master.

Or, if Chapter Masters can't cope without EW, then other characters should also have EW. And when I say "characters" I mean actual customisable HQs, not 'one SC in the army'.

**jreilly89**

vipoid wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:
Man, the hate is strong in this thread. Gooooood, goooood.

But seriously, OT, none of you would have a problem if your named characters died like chaff in the wind? I could live with that change, but my 300 point Chapter Master should now cost WAY less.

So, what exactly is not just killing but Instant Deathing all these named characters with no problems whatsoever?

Let's talk about Chapter Masters for a moment. I don't know what build you're using, but I've just made a biker one on battlescribe for 50pts less with T5, 4 wounds (obviously), a 2+/3+, and a S7 weapon that strikes at initiative with Digital Weapons (can even save 15pts by going Power Fist/Lightning Claw instead). And I haven't even applied Chapter Tactics yet.

Point being, why is he apparently so badly in need of EW? He can already take a Lascannon or Bright Lance to the face and shrug it off (assuming it even gets past his 3++). And, in fact, even a weapon that can ID him still has to get past that 3++. And that's before you even get into the protection offered by his squad (and LoS).

Because he's paying all those points for the protection? Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300? He should be able to take all those shoots and do that much damage, that's roughly 1/6 of your force (if playing 1850 points) for one guy!

Automatically Appended Next Post:

vipoid wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

EW in this case would be for Force and the rare S10.

But why does he need it?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
In fact, some would argue that, if he's on a Bike, EW is less needed. However, assuming he's on foot, he's more likely to need it. Way too easy to get enough S8+ that the minimum for a Chapter Master, 130, is risky.

But, again, why should Chapter Masters get EW and not other HQs?

You talk about S8-9 weapons being too much of a risk when he isn't on a bike, but what about characters who need bikes just to reach T4? If they can manage without EW then so can a Chapter Master.

Or, if Chapter Masters can't cope without EW, then other characters should also have EW. And when I say "characters" I mean actual customisable HQs, not 'one SC in the army'.

I think all HQ's should get Eternal Warrior. It's crazy stupid guys like Azrael, Asmodai, Librarians, etc. don't, but random Chapter Master does.

**vipoid**

jreilly89 wrote:

Because he's paying all those points for the protection?

No, he's also paying a good deal of points for mobility and weapons. And, you know, the orbital bombardment.

Furthermore, T5 4 wounds and a 2+/3+ save is more than most armies can get even with their most heavily-armoured special characters - and few of those boast a 12" move and a S7 sword.

jreilly89 wrote:
Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300?

Even a heavily kitted one is only 250. If you stick to basics he's barely over 200pts.

jreilly89 wrote:
He should be able to take all those shoots and do that much damage, that's roughly 1/6 of your force (if playing 1850 points) for one guy!

Again, you're acting as if he dies to a stiff breeze without EW. He's still T5 4 wounds with a 2+/3+ save.

How the hell do you think other armies cope? Ones whose characters can't even come close to that level of protection, no matter how much they pay.

**Dozer Blades**

Chapter Masters fight in melee unlike Farseers, Ethereals, buffmanders and a whole host of other cowardly HQ.

**Bharring**

CMs fight in CC, so shouldn't be IDed by Krak missiles on foot or Railgun shots on bikes, but Farseers and Autarchs fight at range, so should be IDed by Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades on foot?

**Breng77**

How would that work? As in, how many points over the target's toughness would a weapon need to be to cause 2 wounds or 3?

I'm presuming it's not a 1:1 ratio otherwise it might as well be ID in most cases.

I explained my thought back on P. 2 of the thread. Essentially It ammounted to

S = T wound on 4s
S = T+1 Wound on 3s
S= T+2 or 3 wound on 2s
S = T + 4 or 5 wound on 2 causes 2 wounds
S = T + 6 or 7 wound on 2s causes 3 wounds
etc.

So for instance a T 4 model wound take 2 wounds from a S8 gun, which will instant death some models but not all. IT also improves T3 models by meaning S6 wound not cause 2 wounds, meaning it would take S7 to cause multiple wounds.

It is not a perfect system but it is better IMO than the current one.

Alternatively if you wanted to keep instant death and EW in the game but wanted some change a possibility would be to make Instant death causing attacks reduce EW models to a single wound.

Another way to look at it is that characters with EW make all other characters look bad by being ridiculously survivable for their cost

I don't feel that this is the case at all. IT makes them look bad because they are bad, they cost too many points and die to easily compared to noncharacter models/units of equal cost. Lets just look at say a 75 point HQ choice, without eternal warrior it is likely less durable than most units of equal cost due to instant death and having fewer wounds.

**Dozer Blades**

There's lots S10 in the game.

Demolisher
DCCW
GMC
SHW
SW IC on TW mount with fist or hammer
Daemonhammer with Hammerhand
Etc.

**vipoid**

Dozer Blades wrote:
There's lots S10 in the game.

Demolisher
DCCW
GMC
SHW
SW IC on TW mount with fist or hammer
Daemonhammer with Hammerhand
Etc.

There's vastly more S8-9 and S6-7. A T5 character already gets EW against those.

Breng77 wrote:

I explained my thought back on P. 2 of the thread. Essentially It ammounted to

S = T wound on 4s
S = T+1 Wound on 3s
S= T+2 or 3 wound on 2s
S = T + 4 or 5 wound on 2 causes 2 wounds
S = T + 6 or 7 wound on 2s causes 3 wounds
etc.

So for instance a T 4 model wound take 2 wounds from a S8 gun, which will instant death some models but not all. IT also improves T3 models by meaning S6 wound not cause 2 wounds, meaning it would take S7 to cause multiple wounds.

It is not a perfect system but it is better IMO than the current one.

I wouldn't object to that system.

One thing though - how would you do Force Weapons (and other ID stuff that doesn't involve strength)? Or, would they just be removed.

**Ratius**

I just feel sorry for us Nid players, where is our smattering of EW rules?
Oh right yeah.....

**jreilly89**

vipoid wrote:
jreilly89 wrote:

Because he's paying all those points for the protection?

No, he's also paying a good deal of points for mobility and weapons. And, you know, the orbital bombardment.

Furthermore, T5 4 wounds and a 2+/3+ save is more than most armies can get even with their most heavily-armoured special characters - and few of those boast a 12" move and a S7 sword.

Then blame GW for poor rules writing and for making SM their poster boys to sell the game. I'm all for leveling the playing field, but I think removing EW is a step in the wrong direction.

jreilly89 wrote:
Let's look at a kitted out Chapter Master on a bike. With all his upgrades how much does he run? ~300?

Even a heavily kitted one is only 250. If you stick to basics he's barely over 200pts.

**Bharring**

Compare a 200pt CM to a PL.

2+/3++ vs 2+/some have 4++ others don't
T5 vs T4
W4 vs W3
12" move vs mostly 6" move
S8ap2 I1 vs S4/5 AP2/3 I7
4A vs 4A
No EW vs EW

Clearly they get a lot for 200pts.

So you

**vipoid**

jreilly89 wrote:

That's still a heavy chunk of points, considering a Wraithknight is not much over that and a Riptide is around the same for better survivability and firepower.

Yes, because we all know Wraithknights are the epitome of balance.

jreilly89 wrote:

Because if a guy really is rocking that much gear, he should be able to take that much damage.

And he can. Even without EW he can tank an absolutely ridiculous amount of firepower.

It takes 22 lascannon shots to kill this guy. That's 4 more than it takes to kill a land raider (which also have a small chance to get IDed by one), and 1 more than it takes to kill a Riptide with FNP. And, this isn't even including the Chapter Master's ability to divert wounds to his squad or get FNP (either through Iron Hands or via an Apothecary in the squad) or IWND.

jreilly89 wrote:

Also, I think other armies cope by not investing that much in their HQs and spamming their best units.

So do the same. No one is forcing you to take a 250pt Chapter Master.

jreilly89 wrote:
Even without EW, some armies can still have some nasty tricks up their sleeves

You mean like a T5 2+/3+ 4-wound character on a bike?

jreilly89 wrote:

Also, back up with the hostility. I'm not saying you wrote the rules, I'm just saying getting red of EW would open up a whole new list of problems.

Then stop acting so entitled and maybe take a minute to appreciate what you've got. You have probably the single most durable non-SC in the game (not to mention also being one of the fastest and hardest hitting) - a character most other races would kill for - yet that's still not good enough for you. No, he has to be able to headbutt Demolisher Shells and take Force Weapons on the chin as well.