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So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

A lot of armies have great things besides EW... Go complain about those.

Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

 vipoid wrote:

 jreilly89 wrote:

That's still a heavy chunk of points, considering a Wraithknight is not much over that and a Riptide is around the same for better survivability and firepower.

Yes, because we all know Wraithknights are the epitome of balance.

Right, my bad for analyzing the game and realizing that EW isn't the problem.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Because if a guy really is rocking that much gear, he should be able to take that much damage.

And he can. Even without EW he can tank an absolutely ridiculous amount of firepower.

It takes 22 lascannon shots to kill this guy. That's 4 more than it takes to kill a land raider (which also have a small chance to get IDed by one), and 1 more than it takes to kill a Riptide with FNP. And, this isn't even including the Chapter Master's ability to divert wounds to his squad or get FNP (either through Iron Hands or via an Apothecary in the squad) or IWND.

Laughable. One Vindicator will knock him flat without EW. Also, vehicles are woefully vulnerable, but nice try. And what's your point? Chapter Masters are broken when you take them to the cheesiest of extremes, but the same can be said for a lot of 40k. Again, I don't think EW is the issue here.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, I think other armies cope by not investing that much in their HQs and spamming their best units.

So do the same. No one is forcing you to take a 250pt Chapter Master.

Or just give every HQ EW and then everything's fine.

 jreilly89 wrote:
Even without EW, some armies can still have some nasty tricks up their sleeves

You mean like a T5 2+/3+ 4-wound character on a bike?

Cute.

 jreilly89 wrote:

Also, back up with the hostility. I'm not saying you wrote the rules, I'm just saying getting red of EW would open up a whole new list of problems.

Then stop acting so entitled and maybe take a minute to appreciate what you've got. You have probably the single most durable non-SC in the game (not to mention also being one of the fastest and hardest hitting) - a character most other races would kill for - yet that's still not good enough for you. No, he has to be able to headbutt Demolisher Shells and take Force Weapons on the chin as well.

That's hilarious considering I play Orks, Daemons, and DA. In DA, the ONLY one who gets EW is Sammael, who I don't even run, so way to make quick judgements.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

A lot of armies have great things besides EW... Go complain about those.

Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

Essentially. They're mad SM get all the best rules. EW isn't the problem.

 vipoid wrote:

But why does he need it?

Because he's a hero space marine and therefore needs to be able to reliably beat every other army's HQ in heroic 1-on-1 combat in order for The Narrative to be properly Forged? How else is he going to kill all the Chaos Lords? 1 extra Wound and 1 extra Attack and a better armor save and a better invulnerable save isn't always enough.

Just make it buyable for all HQs. In the fifth edition space wolf codex it was priced at 35. I say lower that to 25 or 30 and make an upgrade for every race. Problem solved.

Oh god no, no EW 2016!

There should be something like in Fantasy where there's generic Relics, and one of them is just a Relic giving EW. Would THAT make you happy, Vipoid?

Hell, I'm paying the 50 FOR EW. Instant Death is a badly done mechanic when the game runs the way it does right now.

wouldn't object to that system.

One thing though - how would you do Force Weapons (and other ID stuff that doesn't involve strength)? Or, would they just be removed.

Either you could remove them or simply have them count as a certain strength of wounds.

For example you could say Instant Death- wounds caused by this weapon count as S10. So have the weapon wound on its typical value but deal extra wounds at the S10 value.

Then make Strength D essentially count as S11.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Oh god no, no EW 2016!

Eternal warrior must live on

Bharring wrote:
CMs fight in CC, so shouldn't be IDed by Krak missiles on foot or Railgun shots on bikes, but Farseers and Autarchs fight at range, so should be IDed by Plasma Guns and Krak Grenades on foot?

Farsight fights in melee. He only gets T4 and a 3+/4++. He will, on average, die to two krak missiles. Hell, Kharn fights purely in melee and he only gets a 3+/5++.

And why shouldn't a chapter master be killed by a railgun shot just because he wants to hit stuff with a sword? Also, with a 3++ it will take, on average, three railgun wounds to kill him without EW. Railguns only have one shot so he's tanked two Hammerheads and then died against the third. That means that he has absorbed at least 375points of firepower (more likely 438 points once you add in disruption pods, submunition and BSF). It seems fair to me that a single 200 to 300 point model can be killed by ~400 points worth of shooting.

With EW he is instead taking a single unsaved wound for each 3 Railgun wounds and so it will take 4 turns of those 3 shots to kill him.

That means that to kill this ~300 point character you have to devote 4 turns of 400 point shooting at him. So 300 points which takes 1600 points worth of shooting to take down. Yeah, that's totally fair

Aren't Railguns terrible anyway?

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So basically this all comes down to jealousy. :(

No, it comes down to most SM players going F*** you, got mine.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
Also that is really far fetched to say it takes 22 Lascannon shots... The first four could do it.

Or he could tank lascannons all day and never fail a 3++ save, what's your point?

 jreilly89 wrote:

Laughable. One Vindicator will knock him flat without EW.

Or, far more likely, he'll just make his 3++ and shrug it off. But, even if he doesn't, why shouldn't he die? I've yet to hear any reasonable answer other than "my HQ that's already among the most resilient in the game should be more resilient still because I don't like the idea that he could possibly die to the strongest non-D weapon in the game." Once again, how do you think armies feel with T3 or T4 HQs, who can't match his 2+/3+ save? Yours can be downed by a Vindicator shell, they can be downed by a Battle Cannon or even just a Heavy Incinerator or Multilaser.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
There should be something like in Fantasy where there's generic Relics, and one of them is just a Relic giving EW. Would THAT make you happy, Vipoid?

It would certainly be preferable to the current situation.

 jreilly89 wrote:
I think all HQ's should get Eternal Warrior. It's crazy stupid guys like Azrael, Asmodai, Librarians, etc. don't, but random Chapter Master does.

I'd be fine with this.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Aren't Railguns terrible anyway?

Yup. So the argument that EW is needed to protect against the basically-never-used-as-missilesides-are-a-thing Railgun is a bit silly

Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

Why not reduce the durability of the space marine HQ? That's only one change as opposed to changing every other army.

Its... not?

The problem is that it takes way too many rialgun shots to kill something with EW and your ''solution'' is to make EW more prevalent, 10/10 logic right there

A rail gun is a terrible weapon in this edition generally. The reason I want more armies to have it is because I think it's a good rule. It's cinematic and allows for the fluff to better represented on the table top. How many 40k novels end with...... And then abbadon was hit by a krak missile and died.

Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
A rail gun is a terrible weapon in this edition generally. The reason I want more armies to have it is because I think it's a good rule. It's cinematic and allows for the fluff to better represented on the table top. How many 40k novels end with...... And then abbadon was hit by a krak missile and died.

Abaddon is T5 with a 2+ save, he won't get instant death'd by a krak missile

They should just make it a faction-specific special rule. All Independent Characters with the Armies of the Imperium faction have EW standard. Done.

Angron had a titan step on him and stopped it, and calgar got ripped limb from limb and he kept fighting. Characters take some pretty bad blows all the time and come out swinging.

And again in a world were we have wraith knights, Imperial knights, multiple rip tides, and invisibility nonsense, having an HQ take all three wounds isn't that bad.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Angron had a titan step on him and stopped it, and calgar got ripped limb from limb and he kept fighting. Characters take some pretty bad blows all the time and come out swinging.

And again in a world were we have wraith knights, Imperial knights, multiple rip tides, and invisibility nonsense, having an HQ take all three wounds isn't that bad.

Calgar didn't keep fighting immediately after getting ripped limb from limb.

He was taken away and healed/fitted with a ton of bionics, then, after recuperating, rejoined his combat forces.

Which can be fluffed by having losing all wounds = incapable of continuing battle but not necessarily dead.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

In books, I meant

As a compromise if the game didn't have doubling out based on toughness I would be good.

Getting hit with a force weapon or a roll a 6 to ID is balanced by not being guaranteed. I find it anti climatic and boring.

 Bobthehero wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Characters rarely get hit with stuff that will kill them. EW is amongst the worst rules of this game.

I've ground a numerous amount of characters to paste with Vindicators. I beg to differ.

In books, I meant

I'd be happy with my characters losing EW if it meant that they could actually protect themselves in the way they do in the stories - where LOS matters, for example, because otherwise you'll just bomb my warlord with artillery for an easy STW victory point.

In the stories, there's fog of war (often literal as well as figurative) as well that ensures that the commanders are not bombed to paste the moment they appear from their landing craft. There is neither in the 40k game.

Yeah, but the killzone of artillery is much bigger and shells are a lot more accurate.

It doesn't matter if the killzone is bigger if my commander is coming in via aircraft.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again the solution is to extend the rule to other races HQs not tank the durability of Space Marine HQs because you don't like one specific build. Yes chapter master smash is strong but he's hardly the worst thing in the game and cost a pretty penny to run.

Why not reduce the durability of the space marine HQ? That's only one change as opposed to changing every other army.

That's actually the same thing I came away with with the above argument too. A chapter master tanking ten lascannon shots is not a problem with EW, it's a problem with how easy it is for space marines to get a +3 invulnerable save. This does not apply to every other army on the game, and the removal of EW hurts those armies more than it does SM because they can still take storm shields, and that if anything it would encourage stuff like that when the alternative is having your HQ eat a surprising accurate earthshaker round for the umpteenth time

Not wrong with being rewarded with a kill when you finally land an accurate shot with your artillery.