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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:38:54
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Frazzled wrote: Smacks wrote:That is a rule that only exists in your head. Back in the real world, people who share a religion can unequivocally fall under the purview of "race". It might sound awkward to you, but that is irrelevant.
Wait what? Please recheck your statement.
Religion is thought. Any person of any genetic makeup can be in a religion.
"Racial" characteristics are based on genes.
Technically incorrect, but as Los pollos has already pointed out, that didn't lead anywhere.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:40:09
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:
WHICH IS NOT WHAT WE'RE DOING. Look, I've said it multiple times, I don't care if you call it cultural racism, cultural xenophobia, or what have you, the point I'm trying to make (which Iron_Captain for one seems to have been able to understand without any effort whatsoever) is that there isn't ever going to be a constructive discussion about the subject as long as people keep assuming that all Arabs have the same cultural values.
And I was saying that talking about a culture as a whole or establishing that a peoples of a location that generally follows one culture/religion in general; will probably share the same cultural values is not racism, then we got swept up in semantics. Then we both got swept up when the other person shows up telling me that discriminating against anything under the dictionary of race is racism as we've established isn't accurate and is a fallacy, hence someone who hates egg and spoon races are not racists. Not my fault you threw your lot in with that argument and got caught up in it
Especially seen as you seem to have mentioned earlier that you agree that this is a culture clash issue and not a race one, which was like 90% of my original argument anyway.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 14:42:29
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:40:09
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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The closest person who understood my (admittedly short) statements realised I'm talking about the teachings in the Q'oran. Westernised Muslims don't take them literally.
Countries that base their state on Islam like many in the Middle East follow Sunni teachings, many follow Salafi jihadism or Jihadist-Salafism - the most literal teachings.
When those teachings tell them to hunt down and kill non-muslims and that raping non-muslims is fine, it's engrained in the culture. Therefore Islam and the literal following of it is a problem.
It's nice people are defending it, but that's like defending someone in court who is guilty of a crime that you don't understand / are unaware of. That is the biggest problem facing Europe and Westernised Muslims / Moderate Muslim survival. - it's the refusal to identify where Salafists are getting these very specific ideas from because of fear of upsetting the extremists and being labelled a racist (something already happening on this thread). By refusing to do this and in many cases vindicating these literal followers, they will keep disregarding our laws and human rights and doing what they want.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 14:42:50
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:43:15
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Frazzled wrote: Smacks wrote:That is a rule that only exists in your head. Back in the real world, people who share a religion can unequivocally fall under the purview of "race". It might sound awkward to you, but that is irrelevant.
Wait what? Please recheck your statement.
Religion is thought. Any person of any genetic makeup can be in a religion.
"Racial" characteristics are based on genes.
Technically incorrect, but as Los pollos has already pointed out, that didn't lead anywhere.
Please show me where someone is genetically a Buddhist. I'll wait.
We're all of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens (ok you people are, I neanderthal myself)
All the "races" are just genetic subgroups of humans with a few minor genetic variations.
That has nothing, nothing to do with religion.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:49:58
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
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The thing people get confused with when it comes to racism on this Islam issue is that when people hate or discriminate against Muslims they're not been racist they're been religiously intolerant and prejudice. If someone discriminates say all people who look Muslim as in the stereotype of a traditional Muslim they're racists but not because they discriminate against Muslims but because they discriminate against a race of people confusing them for their religion. You can be racist against a people but discriminatory against a religion its just everyone pro and against on both sides get these confused. If someone discriminates against someone thinking they're a Muslim because they look Muslim they're been both racist and religiously discriminatory but its not the same they're been racist but out of fear or anger towards a religion rather than thinking your race is superior. They become racist out of misconception but discriminating, questioning or disliking a religion will never be racism, it can however lead to racism. Its why Nazi's weren't considered racist against white people for hating Jewish people.
The main issue is most people can't separate a religion from a peoples.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 14:53:01
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:51:45
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Noise Marine Terminator with Sonic Blaster
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:But there are specific aspects of and teachings in Islam that are deeply misogynistic by western standards which influence the behaviour of men brought up in Islamic cultures.
That would be a stronger argument if there's was also widespread evidence of Turkish rape mobs (Islamic culture), Asian rape mobs (Islamic culture) or Orthodox Jew rape mobs (Misogynist religion).
The commonality is the nature of culture and society in North Africa and the Arab states, not Islamic teaching (though note, I am neither defending or excusing it's misogynistic elements).
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Ex-Mantic Rules Committees: Kings of War, Warpath
"The Emperor is obviously not a dictator, he's a couch."
Starbuck: "Why can't we use the starboard launch bays?"
Engineer: "Because it's a gift shop!" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 14:53:38
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Los pollos hermanos wrote:Basically you've taken racism a term which has always had the connotation of discrimination based on biological race
See, this is where you show your ignorance, because it hasn't always been used that way. In the past it was more commonly associated with language and nationality. It's probably only since the civil-rights movement that people have use it more to talk about "biology" (as you put it), basically, discriminating against black people. Because that is mostly how you've seen it use in your lifetime, you seem to be under the impression that it isn't ever used any other way. Which, if I'm being more fair than you deserve, is somewhat understandable, since language changes and using it in a different way has become uncommon lately. But "uncommon" does not mean "wrong". When you post here saying someone is "wrong" because they are using a word (correctly) in an uncommon way for lack of a better word, and then start pontificating about people "learning what words mean" (when you clearly haven't done so yourself), then it's perfectly reasonable to call you out on it. You also appear to be confused because race(ethnicity) is a subset of race(group). This happens quite frequently with language, for example, the country of Malta is comprised of a number of islands, namely Gozo, Camino, and also an island called Malta. Someone might argue that a person from Gozo isn't Maltese, because they are not from the Island of Malta, but their passport would likely say "Maltese" because they are from the country of Malta. It really shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:00:52
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:01:09
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Frazzled wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: Frazzled wrote: Smacks wrote:That is a rule that only exists in your head. Back in the real world, people who share a religion can unequivocally fall under the purview of "race". It might sound awkward to you, but that is irrelevant.
Wait what? Please recheck your statement.
Religion is thought. Any person of any genetic makeup can be in a religion.
"Racial" characteristics are based on genes.
Technically incorrect, but as Los pollos has already pointed out, that didn't lead anywhere.
Please show me where someone is genetically a Buddhist. I'll wait.
We're all of the species Homo Sapiens Sapiens (ok you people are, I neanderthal myself)
All the "races" are just genetic subgroups of humans with a few minor genetic variations.
That has nothing, nothing to do with religion.
You could just read the thread Frazz.
Los pollos hermanos wrote:And I was saying that talking about a culture as a whole or establishing that a peoples of a location that generally follows one culture/religion in general; will probably share the same cultural values is not racism, then we got swept up in semantics.
I think you'll find that you're the one who got swept up in semantics. Again, it's not called "cultural racism" because of a focus on races, but because it's essentially the legacy of what you would call racism; the belief in inherent traits in a culture (in the case of cultural racism) or race (in the case of "tratidional" racism) and the attribution of these "inherent" traits to everyone in a group based solely on the fact that they belong to the group. In the end, that line of thinking gives us this:
godardc wrote:
Seriously, just let them drowning in the Aegean, and they will stop coming.
To try to somewhat salvage the thread: Putting aside cultural differences for a second, what options are there, really? We either tell the refugees to piss off, "let them drown in the Aegean" or let them get blown to pieces in Syria, or we take in as many as we can and deal with the issues that brings (which is where not assuming all of the refugees are homogenous to one another comes in). Am I missing a third option?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:05:10
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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SO you can't actually defend your asinine statement. RACE IS NOT RELIGION. Its just stupid.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:05:36
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:05:14
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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This thread reminds me the Christian kingdoms in the middle ages, bickering over pointless semantics and things and missing the point.... all the while the Jihad picks up pace.
Read my above point or just look up Salafism.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:06:06
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:07:23
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
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Smacks wrote: Los pollos hermanos wrote:Basically you've taken racism a term which has always had the connotation of discrimination based on biological race
See, this is where you show your ignorance, because it hasn't always been used that way.
Its pretty much been that way since the early 19th century. So using the argument that im just using a too modern example and should have considered early 1800's meanings of the word isn't really relevant to debate is it unless we were discussing in a historical context when clearly we're talking about modern racism. Especially seen as you told me that 30 years is old enough for a new definition to be cemented as factual. I would think that the term race used for racism meaning biological race been used since the mid 1860's would be old hat enough for you to know that in today's world none historians context when people talk racism and race related to racism they're talking "modern" by like two centuries standard definitions
and this is still spiraling wildly away from the actual topic. Now I will never accept that racism by its definition and connotations can be applied to anything under the term race in the dictionary or that religion/religious ideology can be a victim of racism any more than a race car can be subjected to racism if someone really hates race cars. Im sure they all have their own names for those discrimination but its not racism.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:08:56
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:12:47
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Wulfmar wrote:The closest person who understood my (admittedly short) statements realised I'm talking about the teachings in the Q'oran. Westernised Muslims don't take them literally.
Countries that base their state on Islam like many in the Middle East follow Sunni teachings, many follow Salafi jihadism or Jihadist-Salafism - the most literal teachings.
When those teachings tell them to hunt down and kill non-muslims and that raping non-muslims is fine, it's engrained in the culture. Therefore Islam and the literal following of it is a problem.
It's nice people are defending it, but that's like defending someone in court who is guilty of a crime that you don't understand / are unaware of. That is the biggest problem facing Europe and Westernised Muslims / Moderate Muslim survival. - it's the refusal to identify where Salafists are getting these very specific ideas from because of fear of upsetting the extremists and being labelled a racist (something already happening on this thread). By refusing to do this and in many cases vindicating these literal followers, they will keep disregarding our laws and human rights and doing what they want.
Again, for the umpteenth time, the point we're making is that not every Muslim is a crazed salafist zealot. Islam is not the problem. Salafist interpretations of Islam, sure, not going to argue with you there. Further, would you mind linking where someone got called a racist in this thread? I must've missed it.
If you had free reign, how would you solve the problem?
Los pollos hermanos wrote:
and this is still spiraling wildly away from the actual topic. Now I will never accept that racism by its definition and connotations can be applied to anything under the term race in the dictionary or that religion/religious ideology can be a victim of racism any more than a race car can be subjected to racism if someone really hates race cars. Im sure they all have their own names for those discrimination but its not racism.
They do have their own names, it's called cultural racism because it's similar to biological racism.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:14:44
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:12:54
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle
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Nascar fans would beg to differ
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H.B.M.C.- The end hath come! From now on armies will only consist of Astorath, Land Speeder Storms and Soul Grinders!
War Kitten- Vanden, you just taunted the Dank Lord Ezra. Prepare for seven years of fighting reality...
koooaei- Emperor: I envy your nipplehorns. <Magnus goes red. Permanently>
Neronoxx- If our Dreadnought doesn't have sick scuplted abs, we riot.
Frazzled- I don't generally call anyone by a term other than "sir" "maam" "youn g lady" "young man" or " HEY bag!"
Ruin- It's official, we've ran out of things to talk about on Dakka. Close the site. We're done.
mrhappyface- "They're more what you'd call guidlines than actual rules" - Captain Roboute Barbosa
Steve steveson- To be clear, I'd sell you all out for a bottle of scotch and a mid priced hooker.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:14:02
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
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The course I quoted like a million times is a good start for all recent immigrants/refugee's you can't just dump them on the street of a western based society and expect them to just merge in. Stricter rules and education, more tests/ things required of new immigrants/refugees to help assimilation. English lessons would be a good start (English is a great thing for anyone living in Europe, allows them to travel for work as well helping assimilation not just in one country but many), classes on teaching the differences of their new western homes. Shouldn't be hard to find things that are radically different in the culture and then help educate them on the new rules of the country. Its not rocket science for these governments and it would all go a lot quicker if every time people called them racist for thinking of doing such things because its not 100% keeping their culture safe. If I moved to the middle east I would be expected to adapt to that culture, if I moved to Japan I would be expected to adapt to their ways too why is it racist to suggest the same if its proven that violent crimes aka the thread currently is happening because of culture shock.
It almost always goes like this.
>New immigrant says its different in his culture, women shouldn't wear skirts and can be taken by any man without trouble
>Well we could teach similar men the new ways of their western countries they now live in, help assimilation and also stop calling police racist for arresting any immigrants for crimes to let those know its not ok and you will be punished.
> Someone: "you racist"
>face palm *sigh* and then you just stop trying to help Europe then.
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:19:19
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:15:12
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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AlmightyWalrus wrote: Wulfmar wrote:The closest person who understood my (admittedly short) statements realised I'm talking about the teachings in the Q'oran. Westernised Muslims don't take them literally.
Countries that base their state on Islam like many in the Middle East follow Sunni teachings, many follow Salafi jihadism or Jihadist-Salafism - the most literal teachings.
When those teachings tell them to hunt down and kill non-muslims and that raping non-muslims is fine, it's engrained in the culture. Therefore Islam and the literal following of it is a problem.
It's nice people are defending it, but that's like defending someone in court who is guilty of a crime that you don't understand / are unaware of. That is the biggest problem facing Europe and Westernised Muslims / Moderate Muslim survival. - it's the refusal to identify where Salafists are getting these very specific ideas from because of fear of upsetting the extremists and being labelled a racist (something already happening on this thread). By refusing to do this and in many cases vindicating these literal followers, they will keep disregarding our laws and human rights and doing what they want.
Again, for the umpteenth time, the point we're making is that not every Muslim is a crazed salafist zealot. Islam is not the problem. Salafist interpretations of Islam, sure, not going to argue with you there. Further, would you mind linking where someone got called a racist in this thread? I must've missed it.
If you had free reign, how would you solve the problem?
You quoted me but it's clear you didn't comprehend what was said. Your posts in particular have been a waste of time to read.
Someone else ask me something. I unlike many here have a copy of the Qur'an
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:18:08
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:20:09
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Los pollos hermanos wrote:
The course I quoted like a million times is a good start for all recent immigrants/refugee's you can't just dump them on the street of a western based society and expect them to just merge in. Stricter rules and education, more tests/ things required of new immigrants/refugees to help assimilation. English lessions would be a good start, classes on teaching the differences of their new western homes. Shouldn't be hard to find things that are radically different in the culture and then help educate them on the new rules of the country. Its not rocket science for these governments and it would all go a lot quicker if every time people called them racist for thinking of doing such things because its not 100% keeping their culture safe. If I moved to the middle east I would be expected to adapt to that culture, if I moved to Japan I would be expected to adapt to their ways too why is it racist to suggest the same if its proven that violent crimes aka the thread currently is happening because of culture shock.
That's option 2, "take in as many as possible and deal with the consequences".
And, again, there's no one claiming it's racist to argue that it's due to certain cultural values, the argument was that it's cultural racism/xenophobia/whatever/potato to act as if there's just one unified Islamic culture or Arab culture.
Wulfmar wrote: AlmightyWalrus wrote: Wulfmar wrote:The closest person who understood my (admittedly short) statements realised I'm talking about the teachings in the Q'oran. Westernised Muslims don't take them literally.
Countries that base their state on Islam like many in the Middle East follow Sunni teachings, many follow Salafi jihadism or Jihadist-Salafism - the most literal teachings.
When those teachings tell them to hunt down and kill non-muslims and that raping non-muslims is fine, it's engrained in the culture. Therefore Islam and the literal following of it is a problem.
It's nice people are defending it, but that's like defending someone in court who is guilty of a crime that you don't understand / are unaware of. That is the biggest problem facing Europe and Westernised Muslims / Moderate Muslim survival. - it's the refusal to identify where Salafists are getting these very specific ideas from because of fear of upsetting the extremists and being labelled a racist (something already happening on this thread). By refusing to do this and in many cases vindicating these literal followers, they will keep disregarding our laws and human rights and doing what they want.
Again, for the umpteenth time, the point we're making is that not every Muslim is a crazed salafist zealot. Islam is not the problem. Salafist interpretations of Islam, sure, not going to argue with you there. Further, would you mind linking where someone got called a racist in this thread? I must've missed it.
If you had free reign, how would you solve the problem?
You quoted me but it's clear you didn't comprehend what was said. Your posts in particular have been a waste of time to read.
Someone else ask me something.
Then explain it to me instead of being an ass. Your argument is that Salafists are getting their ideas from the Quran, therefore Islam, a religion based on the Quran, is the problem, no?
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:27:40
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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Yes. If the Qur'an could be edited then it wouldn't be such a problem with people taking it literally. I personally don't think non-believers should be crucified or have their hand/opposite foot cut off as stated in the Qur'an. Yet it's there in the book for all to see.
Those who take it literally are the issue. Because you can't edit the book, then it will always cause this issue. Therefore Islam is the problem.
I would be saying exactly the same thing about Christianity or other religions on similar passages if they had them so don't feel I'm picking on Islam out of prejudice of something
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:28:45
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:28:04
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Apprehensive Inquisitorial Apprentice
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Except its not really, option two is what they're doing right now but instead of doing it right they're dumping a whole load of people from a different culture out onto Europeans streets and just leaving them to do whatever. Its not a melting pot of society they're forming a salad bowl, communities of cultures closed off to others and following their own ways and you've seen how it creates clashes in the streets and issues in crime. Europe is just letting everyone in and not attempting assimilation, welfare state lets anyone just live off the government, you don't have to work or jump through any real hoops. More rules, more assimilation, more lessons more getting them into actual work where they will interact with many other cultures not just group together. A multicultural society is one where you can practice your culture and still live and interact with others. Plenty of things in certain cultures if not multiculturised do not mix. If one culture doesn't let women wear skirts and now you have a lot of those people living where its a culture where they do, what do you do?
Option 1: is what they're doing, nothing just expecting it to work out
Option 2: thinking of changing native culture to be more accommodating which thy have been dancing with, blaming female victims, expecting them to just understand or forgive
Option 3: make people realize they have to assimilate to their new home with all the programs mentioned and deportation for criminal activity wouldn't hurt. These nations didn't have to take people in, the people should realize that they have to give a little and change something if they're going to be Europeans. Not everything, nothing says you can't keep your rich culture and not take women you want, or think of any woman in a skirt or unescorted by a man as a whore or that you're immune from European law now ect ect
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:30:52
Ask of me, and I will make the nations your heritage,
and the ends of the earth your possession. You shall break them with a rod of iron and dash them in pieces like a potter’s vessel. Now therefore, O kings, be wise; be warned, O rulers of the earth. Serve the Lord with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son,
lest he be angry, and you perish in the way,
for his wrath is quickly kindled. Blessed are all who take refuge in him. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:33:33
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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AlmightyWalrus wrote:Then explain it to me instead of being an ass. Your argument is that Salafists are getting their ideas from the Quran, therefore Islam, a religion based on the Quran, is the problem, no?
The people are using Islam and their interpretation of the Quran's writings to do what they want. Neither source caused them to do it, but they state it as reasons for doing so.
Since someone here has the Quran, what does it really say about raping and killing non-believers?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:33:36
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Los pollos hermanos wrote:
Except its not really, option two is what they're doing right now but instead of doing it right they're dumping a whole load of people from a different culture out onto Europeans streets and just leaving them to do whatever. Its not a melting pot of society they're forming a salad bowl, communities of cultures closed off to others and following their own ways and you've seen how it creates clashes in the streets and issues in crime. Europe is just letting everyone in and not attempting assimilation, welfare state lets anyone just live off the government, you don't have to work or jump through any real hoops. More rules, more assimilation, more lessons more getting them into actual work where they will interact with many other cultures not just group together. A multicultural society is one where you can practice your culture and still live and interact with others. Plenty of things in certain cultures if not multiculturised do not mix. If one culture doesn't let women wear skirts and now you have a lot of those people living where its a culture where they do, what do you do?
Option 1: is what they're doing, nothing just expecting it to work out
Option 2: thinking of changing native culture to be more accommodating which thy have been dancing with, blaming female victims, expecting them to just understand or forgive
Option 3: make people realize they have to assimilate to their new home with all the programs mentioned and deportation for criminal activity wouldn't hurt. These nations didn't have to take people in, the people should realize that they have to give a little and change something if they're going to be Europeans. Not everything, nothing says you can't keep your rich culture and not take women you want, or think of any woman in a skirt or unescorted by a man as a whore or that you're immune from European law now ect ect
Sorry, I should've been clearer, what I meant was, other than "let as many in as we can, doing whatever we need to do to ensure we can cope" and "nope, let'em die", what options are there? There obviously needs to be steps taken to integrate so many people, but that's assuming that we've already chosen to let people in.
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For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:34:40
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:Wait what? Please recheck your statement. Religion is thought. Any person of any genetic makeup can be in a religion. "Racial" characteristics are based on genes.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that religion shouldn't be confused with genetics. But if you look up the word "race" it doesn't exclusively pertain to genes, it can also refer to cultural characteristics, and in the broadest sense any distinguishing characteristics of a group. However, I don't think we have to go too broad to say that religion is a part of culture. So discriminating against someone based solely on their religion can legitimately be termed racism. Discriminating against Jews might be a modern example, where "racism" is commonly used to talk about discrimination against a group based mainly on their religion (jews aren't necessarily genetically distinguishable from non-jews). Los pollos hermanos wrote:So using the argument that im just using a too modern example and should have considered early 1800's meanings.
No, you are using one meaning out of many meanings, which are all listed in the dictionary right now in 2016, and you are pretending that is the only meaning because it is the one you personally like best, which is nonsense.
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This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:49:20
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:37:04
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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[DCM]
Moustache-twirling Princeps
Gone-to-ground in the craters of Coventry
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Wulfmar wrote:Those who take it literally are the issue. Because you can't edit the book, then it will always cause this issue. Therefore Islam is the problem.
Isn't that contradictory?
The Quran is not Islam. Islam is more than the book.
Otherwise, how are there multiple versions of Islam? Surely Sunni and Shiite use the same book.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:43:30
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ferocious Black Templar Castellan
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Wulfmar wrote:Yes. If the Qur'an could be edited then it wouldn't be such a problem with people taking it literally. I personally don't think non-believers should be crucified or have their hand/opposite foot cut off as stated in the Qur'an. Yet it's there in the book for all to see.
Those who take it literally are the issue. Because you can't edit the book, then it will always cause this issue. Therefore Islam is the problem.
Wouldn't the problem be that people take it literally, rather than the fact that it's there? It's not exactly the same, but take the Young Earth Creationists as an example. They believe that the events in Genesis are literal, but there are also other people who believe that it is a metaphor or allegory. Is the problem not then that people come to take the text literally, rather than with the text itself?
As others have mentioned already, even if the Quran isn't officially ever changed, isn't the fact that there's multiple branches of Islam already proof enough that there are more than one way to read it? Is the problem with the religion in its entirety, or with a subset within it who use it to justify their actions?
BTW, props for actually continuing and arguing with me. I certainly don't see this as a waste of time, even if I don't agree with everything that's said or think I'll change anyone's mind.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:44:36
For thirteen years I had a dog with fur the darkest black. For thirteen years he was my friend, oh how I want him back. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:44:33
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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Skinnereal wrote: Wulfmar wrote:Those who take it literally are the issue. Because you can't edit the book, then it will always cause this issue. Therefore Islam is the problem.
Isn't that contradictory?
The Quran is not Islam. Islam is more than the book.
Otherwise, how are there multiple versions of Islam? Surely Sunni and Shiite use the same book.
Good question. It's not contradictory but what you think isn't uncommon - Islam is a religion as written in the Qur'an, which is taken as the literal word of God. There would be no Islam without the Qur'an. Islam is the translation into life of the book.
There are multiple versions based on multiple factors, chiefly how literal it's taken (Sunni take it literally and even this is on a scale with Salafists at the extreme end) and claims such as Ali being the successor of Mohammed and following a different line of thought based on martyrdom etc (Shia)
AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Wouldn't the problem be that people take it literally, rather than the fact that it's there? It's not exactly the same, but take the Young Earth Creationists as an example. They believe that the events in Genesis are literal, but there are also other people who believe that it is a metaphor or allegory. Is the problem not then that people come to take the text literally, rather than with the text itself?
As others have mentioned already, even if the Quran isn't officially ever changed, isn't the fact that there's multiple branches of Islam already proof enough that there are more than one way to read it? Is the problem with the religion in its entirety, or with a subset within it who use it to justify their actions?
BTW, props for actually continuing and arguing with me. I certainly don't see this as a waste of time, even if I don't agree with everything that's said or think I'll change anyone's mind.
The difference with young Earth Creationists and other ideas like that is that those ideas are harmless to others. For this reason you don't see the impact of such ideas in society.
For the second point it's the same as I wrote above to Skinnereal as to the subsets.
( BTW apologies for being an arse earlier, this whole thread is frustrating me and my English isn't fantastic so some of what I said has been taken to mean lots of different things earlier on - like this while racism thing stemmed from me saying Islam is the problem.
For context, I'm white Northern European, was raised in part by an Indian Hindu as my Dad worked a lot in Israel and China and my mum worked a lot in Ireland. I've lived in 4 different countries and have family in 8 including Turkey. I don't really identify with any particular culture and my friends base is very varied. One of my friends introduced me to Islam when I was going through a rough time, though I never converted. I'm not an expert on (I had to try and learn Arabic to read the Qur'an which I struggled with and am very poor at so he helped me a lot - additional context he was Shia). I'm one of those people who never really had a main home country but it does mean I've probably seen more interesting things than a fair few.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 15:57:05
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 15:49:46
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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5th God of Chaos! (Yea'rly!)
The Great State of Texas
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Smacks wrote: Frazzled wrote:Wait what? Please recheck your statement.
Religion is thought. Any person of any genetic makeup can be in a religion.
"Racial" characteristics are based on genes.
I understand where you are coming from, and I agree that religion shouldn't be confused with genetics. But if you look up the word "race" it doesn't exclusively pertain to genes, it can also refer to cultural characteristic, and in the broadest sense any distinguishing characteristic of a group. However, I don't think we have to go too broad to say that religion is a part of culture. So discriminating against someone based solely on their religion can legitimately be termed racism. Discriminating against Jews might be a modern example, where "racism" is used to talk about discrimination against a group based mainly on religion (jews aren't necessarily genetically distinguishable from non-jews).
Los pollos hermanos wrote:So using the argument that im just using a too modern example and should have considered early 1800's meanings.
No, you are using one meaning out of many meanings, which are all listed in the dictionary right now in 2016, and you are pretending that is the only meaning because it is the one you personally like best, which is nonsense.
Except of course, people in these countries aren't all one religion. There are Egyptian Christians for example.
We are getting at an ism, but it isn't race, its national origin.
People from different countries, different regions have different cultures.
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-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 16:13:14
Subject: Re:Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Longtime Dakkanaut
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Frazzled wrote:Except of course, people in these countries aren't all one religion. There are Egyptian Christians for example.
We are getting at an ism, but it isn't race, its national origin.
Well this is what we were talking about. What is the ism? AlmightyWalrus use the term "racism", which is a broad enough term to cover general discrimination against ethnicity, culture, nationality and other related characteristics. Los pollos hermanos tried to argue that racism can only mean discrimination against people based on their genetic heredity. It's really quite a minor point. I think if Los pollos hermanos doesn't want to use the word that way, then he doesn't have to... but he also tried to tell AlmightyWalrus that he was using the word wrong and "needed to learn what words mean". So we looked at the dictionary, and there is really nothing to suggest AlmightyWalrus used the word improperly. Los pollos hermanos' only supporting argument seems to be that he doesn't think it sounds right. Which depends heavily on the mistaken assumption that anyone cares what he thinks, when there is a perfectly good dictionary to hand, which is a much better source for us all to use as our semantic reference point.
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This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 16:19:24
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 16:14:57
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Stitch Counter
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Are you other guys not tired of trying to score points against each other over definitions and ignoring the actual discussion?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/08 16:15:37
Thousand Sons: 3850pts / Space Marines Deathwatch 5000pts / Dark Eldar Webway Corsairs 2000pts / Scrapheap Challenged Orks 1500pts / Black Death 1500pts
Saga: (Vikings, Normans, Anglo Danes, Irish, Scots, Late Romans, Huns and Anglo Saxons), Lion Rampant, Ronin: (Bushi x2, Sohei), Frostgrave: (Enchanter, Thaumaturge, Illusionist)
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 16:21:32
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Terminator with Assault Cannon
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So reading the front page, 1000 immigrants go on a sexual assault spree and the mayors response is to victim blame?
Oh and we aren't supposed to use this as an anti-mass immigration argument.
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SickSix's Silver Skull WIP thread
My Youtube Channel
JSF wrote:... this is really quite an audacious move by GW, throwing out any pretext that this is a game and that its customers exist to do anything other than buy their overpriced products for the sake of it. The naked arrogance, greed and contempt for their audience is shocking. = Epic First Post.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 16:22:40
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Ultramarine Librarian with Freaky Familiar
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Wulfmar wrote:Are you other guys not tired of trying to score points against each other over definitions and ignoring the actual discussion?
The thread is past its natural lifespan anyway. Im surprised its lasted this long.
Having said that, I've probably jinxed it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
The BBC says the police chief has resigned. Should have been Merkel really.
I'll be astounded if she has the nerve to stand for re election.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
SickSix wrote:So reading the front page, 1000 immigrants go on a sexual assault spree and the mayors response is to victim blame?
Oh and we aren't supposed to use this as an anti-mass immigration argument.
Well to be fair it was probably less than 50. The rest were being drunk and disorderly and trying to kill people with fireworks for entertainment. The news reports I've seen aren't clear on how many of the 1000 strong crowd were directly involved in the attacks.
I hope the cathedral wasn't trashed. There were large groups gathering on the steps, setting off fireworks. That'd be pretty disgusting. Vandalizing the cultural and religious sites of a could that saver your life giving you asylum or a better life for economic migrants.
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This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/08 16:31:17
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/08 16:29:39
Subject: Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women
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Fixture of Dakka
CL VI Store in at the Cyber Center of Excellence
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Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:
The BBC says the police chief has resigned. Should have been Merkel really.
I'll be astounded if she has the nerve to stand for re election.
To be fair, it is a local LE issue, and if the police chief failed to secure the event, failed to respond to the incidents in a timely manner, and failed to make arrests, he should be shouldering the blame. Merkel did not handle it well but a head of state resigning over an incident like this seems silly.
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Every time a terrorist dies a Paratrooper gets his wings. |
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