Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

So clearly space marines are bad ass mofos who take down bad guys and take bad bitches to bed, but it seems like a wanton waste of resources. Equipping elite regular humans with power armour and SOB level wargear would give the IOM a fairly potent force. They would actually have numbers, as they wouldn't be constrained by limited levels of gene seed and the whole 1000 independent chapter thing. Fluff wise, its sounds like the Ecc. has no problems manufacturing enough gear on Mars to equip the SOB.

The sisters of battle, while not being as mentally conditioned to be a T100 hunting John Connor level of crazyness as a space marine, are still fairly motivated and considered elite in 40k. Wouldn't it make sense to shift all the SM resources to the Guard and establish large power armored armies with the guard's heavy weapons and vehicles? These forces could actually contend with the other factions in the zone mortalis operations (forlorn hopes for breaking seiges, ship boarding, assaulting command elements directly) that seem to be the space marines only use.

I just really like power armor bros.

They are like Navy Seals, in that they go in first and break open that which the enemy thought was impregnable. View it kinda like this: Space Marines are like Mike Tyson at the top of his game, guard are like Martin Short. In a street fight who is going to win? Mike ... for sure. SM are not supposed to be a garrison unit, that is what the guard and SOB do.

Power armour is prohibitively expensive to produce in those sorts of numbers.

The Astartes get it because they are uniquely suited to maximize its potential.

The Sisters of Battle get it because the Ecclesiarchy is rolling in money (and even then, they don't give them to anyone who isn't at least storm trooper levels of hard and trained for years to use it properly)

The Inquisition -can- get it, if they need it.

If you pooled all that production to outfit elite guard units you'd come up short, and the resultant force would not be as effective.

The imperium doesn't really have the resources to equip that many people with Power Armor. The imperium is not a monolithic, homogeneous empire, as much as it is a confederation of semi autonomous areas. There are some universal laws, like the Imperial Creed and the Tithe requirements, but other than that there is little to no cohesion between different sub sectors. As a result each sub sector or sector is responsible for arming itself. Out there there are ~1000 chapters with ~1000 marines per chapter, that is a million marines with equipment and support from forge worlds. there are single army detachments for battles like Armageddon that entail more guardsman than that. With that being said, power armor is relatively expensive to make, in such a way that the value of the equipment would outweigh the value of the soldiers life many many times over. this would be the same idea as giving every soldier in the American Military their own personal armored assault vehicle (Tank, Apc, Artillary vehicle). Its costs are prohibitive.

Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Standard Guardsman infantry do not have the skills and conditioning on the battlefield that Astartes have. Equipping them all with power armour would be a huge expense and waste of money since the majority of Guardsmen are just expected to die (and do die) like sacrificial lambs in the defense of the imperium.

The Astartes (and I guess the Soritas to a lesser extent) are a precision scalpel in terms of battlefield role, they are worth a lot more to the imperium so are looked after more (plus they are self sustainable as the Lords of Terra let the different chapters fund themselves from income from the worlds they are based on). Rather than spending a fortune on cannon fodder having power armour, it is cheaper for the imperium to just invest in more bodies/meatshields.

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

On the contrary. Many Sisters can do what a Marine can do. :p

Two Sisters are the combat equivalent of a Marine.

Resources given to Marines could be rerouted to the Ast*BLAM!* Guard, but GW would starve to death since majority of their sale revenues are from Space Marines...

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Yeah, like get corrupted and fall to Chaos on a regular basis. *mic drop*

 curran12 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Yeah, like get corrupted and fall to Chaos on a regular basis. *mic drop*

You must be Vulkan, because that was some serious burn.

Equipping normal humans as standard with power armor is a waste, that's why. The Ecclesiarchy can afford to do so because SOBs themselves exist in small numbers like Astartes and they're rolling in money. But it can't be mass produced on the scale to say, equip every single Storm Trooper with power armor. If you're going to create power armor, you might as well equip somebody who will maximize its potential to minimize waste. The idea that Astartes take a long time to recruit is also ridiculous- Neophytes can be exalted in a couple years if need be. The only reason why the Raven Guard and Salamanders struggle to maintain their numbers is due to author incompetence.

The better question is why not pay the Adeptus Mechanicus to mass produce Skitarii and loan them to Imperial forces.

 curran12 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Yeah, like get corrupted and fall to Chaos on a regular basis. *mic drop*

Ironically if the High Lords founded more Dark Angels Chapters, the numbers of Astartes who trickle into heresy (while a very minor number), would hit zero because the First Legion practices an extreme version of hypnotic indoctrination.

Yeah cause mind control and hypnosis are SOOOO effective... *eye roll* Seriously the Imperial doctrines that are drilled almost literally into the Space Marine's life is part of what drives they right into the arms of Chaos anytime adversity that can't be solved by shooting it pops up.

I hate this part of the background which make SM look like they get corrupted often...
Maybe little groups, like a squad, but it is supposed really rare. GW shouldn't have made so many traitors chapters, even for covering 10 millenia of fluff.

 godardc wrote:
I hate this part of the background which make SM look like they get corrupted often...
Maybe little groups, like a squad, but it is supposed really rare. GW shouldn't have made so many traitors chapters, even for covering 10 millenia of fluff.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Traitor_Legions_%26_Renegade_Space_Marine_Warbands (I stopped counting at 20 confirmed previous Loyalist chapters turning wholly to Chaos, ignoring unknown ones)

Also, you need to look at something like the Abyssal Crusade. If Astartes are so uncorruptable, how come almost all of them were corrupted? How come fully HALF of the original Space Marine Legions fell to Chaos?

Bottom line is that Astartes are a powerful force, but they are clearly not infallible, and it is far more than just a squad here and there.

Plus fully half of all astartes turning traitor in the horus heresy.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Yeah cause mind control and hypnosis are SOOOO effective... *eye roll* Seriously the Imperial doctrines that are drilled almost literally into the Space Marine's life is part of what drives they right into the arms of Chaos anytime adversity that can't be solved by shooting it pops up.

lolwut? You do realize that hypno-indoctrination (I have yet to hear of a Chapter that doesn't employ it) is the equivalent of programming a computer, right? The only difference is that this computer happens to be sentient, and biological.

I don't think the Wolves do it. (could be wrong.) but you just pointed it out, you can program a computer, you can not infallibly program a sentient being.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
I don't think the Wolves do it. (could be wrong.) but you just pointed it out, you can program a computer, you can not infallibly program a sentient being.

Wolves literally download the entire Chapter History into the Neophyte's brain. I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't slip a little loyalty and insane devotion while they were at it, idiotic as the concept may seem.

 curran12 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Yeah, like get corrupted and fall to Chaos on a regular basis. *mic drop*

"Regular basis"

Like what, once every hundred years?

Or literally half of the entire numbers of Space Marines in one night?

 Tactical_Spam wrote:

 curran12 wrote:

 Tactical_Spam wrote:
Astartes > Sororitas. Not many SOB can do what a Space marine can

Yeah, like get corrupted and fall to Chaos on a regular basis. *mic drop*

"Regular basis"

Like what, once every hundred years?

As opposed to once in four thousand years, yeah, that's pretty damn regular... and even that once was an ill-advised a third party publisher addition.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Yeah cause mind control and hypnosis are SOOOO effective... *eye roll* Seriously the Imperial doctrines that are drilled almost literally into the Space Marine's life is part of what drives they right into the arms of Chaos anytime adversity that can't be solved by shooting it pops up.

Dark Angels are mentally programmed with hidden commands to ensure they never draw their guns on a brother again. One of the high ranking Chaplains merely has to utter the correct sequence of words to put a Dark Angel into a dazed hypnotized state, in which their memory can be wiped and reprogrammed. It is completely beyond what is normal indoctrination for other Chapters.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 curran12 wrote:

 godardc wrote:
I hate this part of the background which make SM look like they get corrupted often...
Maybe little groups, like a squad, but it is supposed really rare. GW shouldn't have made so many traitors chapters, even for covering 10 millenia of fluff.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_Traitor_Legions_%26_Renegade_Space_Marine_Warbands (I stopped counting at 20 confirmed previous Loyalist chapters turning wholly to Chaos, ignoring unknown ones)

Also, you need to look at something like the Abyssal Crusade. If Astartes are so uncorruptable, how come almost all of them were corrupted? How come fully HALF of the original Space Marine Legions fell to Chaos?

Bottom line is that Astartes are a powerful force, but they are clearly not infallible, and it is far more than just a squad here and there.

This simply shows you have absolutely no comprehension of 40k's scale of time. That's every single renegade Warband in the canon that has formed, over the course of ten thousand years. IIRC last I counted it there was roughly 115 or so non-legoin Warbands formed from traitor Astartes over the course of ten millennia. That's an insanely good track record that goes to show just how good the Codex is.

And of fething course half the number fell during the Abyssal Crusade- they went directly into the Eye of Terror and were almost annihilated. The only force that can dare such a mission is the Grey Knights.

 KingmanHighborn wrote:
Or literally half of the entire numbers of Space Marines in one night?

Because during said era the Astartes were freethinkers loyal foremost to their Primarchs, and their Primarchs in turn were to varying degrees screwed over by the Imperium or simply douchebags themselves?

The Astartes of 40k are quite different in training and indoctrination from the Astartes of 30k.

Also, what Wyzilla said. The time that has passed between 30k and 40k is twice the time of recorded history. That is a very very long time.

One power armour is very expensive and sisters are backed by a very rich patron. They can afford the cost but are also some of finest trained too to make best use if elite weaponry and armour.

Training a sister priobbkly takes years, and years. That in itself is expensive. You can get lots more mooks with las guns for one elite human warrior.

Inqusition can just get what they want, cost is no object if they do need it.

Spacemarines are the true elite spear tip. There the line breaker and hyper trained special forces for the most difficult missions and with augments are practically one with there armours systems, feeling the rain drops on it like there own skin.

Your average human is not to that degree and learning to use it is going to take time and practice.

Why didn't Nazi Germany equip more Panzerdivisions with Tiger tanks?
Because Tiger tanks were expensive and hard to make.
Why doesn't the IoM equip more forces with power armour? Because power armour is expensive and hard to make! There is simply not enough power armour, and making it is too expensive for a large force to be equipped with it. That is why it is restricted to the Imperium's most elite (and politically powerful) special forces.

,,, You know, you really didn't need to include that bracketed comment...

The Emperor had power armour troops, they were effective, but they were expensive.

The Emperor had super soldiers, they were expensive, but they were effective

However, giving all his super soldiers power armour made them so effective that it was worth diverting the power armour supplies away from the more conventional forces.

Just some simple math - say a PA makes a regular soldier 2x as effective. Likewise, imagine a super soldier is 2x as effective as a regular trooper (space marines are probably more than this based on fluff, but I'm keeping the math simple. A PA wearing super soldier would be 4x more effective than a regular soldier for less cost than producing a PA soldier and a Super Solider.

So, if you're gonna have both, might as well go all the way and make them the same unit.

Jefffar wrote:
The Emperor had power armour troops, they were effective, but they were expensive.

The Emperor had super soldiers, they were expensive, but they were effective

However, giving all his super soldiers power armour made them so effective that it was worth diverting the power armour supplies away from the more conventional forces.

Just some simple math - say a PA makes a regular soldier 2x as effective. Likewise, imagine a super soldier is 2x as effective as a regular trooper (space marines are probably more than this based on fluff, but I'm keeping the math simple. A PA wearing super soldier would be 4x more effective than a regular soldier for less cost than producing a PA soldier and a Super Solider.

So, if you're gonna have both, might as well go all the way and make them the same unit.

And just to add to this point, as well as answer the OP, go to town and make twenty legions of the these super soldiers to be the frontline units of the Imperial armed forces. Marines were originally intended to be what the OP suggested, however due to loss of forge worlds, manufacturing capability and overall trust in the loyalties of every human militant force caused by the Heresy, marines were relegated to a special forces role instead.

Also, "Forge World" does not mean "building anything and everything you want". Different Forge Worlds are capable of building different things.

"Tech-Priest! Build a million suits of power armor!"
"... this is a gas refinery. We process gases collected from local nebulae and gas giants. Might I interest you in a can of pure oxygen? Petro-chemicals? Helium? No? Why don't you try the next sector over?"

"Tech-Priest! Build a million suits of power armor!"
"This Forge World produces petro-chemical products. We have a lot of plastics! Can I interest you in a box of Solo-Pattern plastic spoons? Guaranteed not to melt in your soup with an eighty-five percent success rate! How about a Triton-pattern spork? Cups? Plates? Decorative flatware? Wiring insulation? Cogitator casings?"

"Tech-Priest! Build a million suits of power armor!"
"We produce Titans here. Piss off."

 Furyou Miko wrote:
,,, You know, you really didn't need to include that bracketed comment...

No it is important. Just bein an elite force in the Imperium of Man doesn't get you power armour. The groups with access to power armour (Space Marines, Sisters of Battle, Inquisitors etc.) all have significant political influence. Other elite forces like the Tempestus Scions don't get power armour.