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Well, at least he's not playing a Decurion?
And he's only got 3 ObSec units, none of them in transports, so you shouldn't have to worry too much about being out scored.
I'd say priority one should be the Doomsday Ark. With long range and S10 AP1, best not to let it last past the second turn, if you can manage it.
Next biggest target is the Stalker. It's gonna buff his shooters, so don't let him keep it.
Be wary of the Wraiths. Not because they're all that deadly by themselves. They're fast, fearless and hard to kill. The perfect anvil unit. If I can guess his tactics, I'd say he's attached his HQ to that unit of Lychguard to make one hell of a Hammer unit and plans to Veil them up the table with Obyron to smash into anything the Wraiths have caught.
Don't let him.
Bubble wrap your important stuff if you can, or better yet, get something sacrificial into combat with the Wraiths to waste their time.
The Monoliths should be fine to pretty much ignore. They don't have very far range, so just try to keep your 3+ armor stuff 25" away from them and they won't be much of a worry (or just Melta them so you don't have to worry).
In regards to your own stuff:
• spilt the Marines into four units of 5. Two units hold the mid and back field objectives, two jump in the Rhinos to go capture ones up field. The bikes and Forgefiend go with them. Cultists can stay in the back, too.
• the Raptors and Talons are what you go after the Wraiths with. Yeah, you probably won't be able to kill them, but that's not the point. Their job is to hold the Wraiths up from doing whatever it is he wants to do with them.
• Heldrake goes after the Lychguard if they've got Scythes, or something else if they've got shields (not worth wasting an AP3 flamer if they've got 3++ saves). Probably the Immortals.
• Hellbrute, Terminators and Landraider... *shrug* Can you proxy? Maybe take the Terms as Obliterators? The Hellbrute as a winged Daemon Prince? (or, dare I say, Be'lakor?) Cause if so you'll have a much better list!
With what he has, does that not make decurion? He said with those units he could make the formation, and with me being pretty new I couldn't really tell.
No.
As the poster above me said, he's missing some of the required pieces (3x Tomb Blades, 1x Overlord).
Also, he can't add Obyron and a Lord to a Decurion unless he also adds a Cryptek and an additional Overlord so he can make a Royal Court formation (he should have a couple Overlord models to use, though. They would have come with the Annihilation Barges).
Not only that, but the only way he could play a single Stalker without Praetorians or just 4 Wraiths without an additional Spyder or Scarab unit is in a CAD (only a select few units can be added to a Decurion without needing to take additional required units. eg. if you want to take a unit of Deathmarks, okay, you can add just a unit of Deathmarks. If you want to take a unit of Heavy Destroyers, well, you've gotta take 3 additional units of regular Destroyers, because they can only be added as part of a formation).
Though this part-
Yoyoyo wrote: he can't combine the Immortals into a single squad of 10x models either
- isn't quite true (you can play Immortal in units from 5 to 10 models in a Reclamation Legion).
Basically, I'm guessing because he's new he didn't know... or at least, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Regardless, tell him if he wants to use the rules for the Decurion then he has to follow the requirements for the Decurion, otherwise he has to stick to CAD.
He did have 3 tomb blades, I forgot about those, so Decurion can only be used as a group of formations, some of which he doesn't have, this should help, and yes its because we are new, and had a hard time interpreting it. Thanks all for the great help so far!
Yoyoyo wrote: Look at the original post of the thread.
XvReaperXv wrote: when we play the big games he usually has 2x10 warriors, 10 immortals, 4 wraiths, 2 monoliths, 1 lord and a named character that can ds his squad from the field, 2 anni barges, doomsday ark, stalker, and a squad of 5 lynchguard.
XvReaperXv wrote: I have 20 marines with 2 rhinos, 6 bikes, hellbrute, lord, forgefiend, heldrake, warp talons, raptors, regular termies and lightning claw termies, and a land raider. And a small squad of cultists from the DV set.
Doesn't tell me enough. I need loadouts. Assuming everything is primed for being the best choices:
1. Raptors and Bikers will take Melta. Monoliths are garbage and it is a good way to get rid of 200 point units immediately. Even then, they aren't putting out great firepower. You can be safe almost just ignoring them for the most part.
2. Leave the Warp Talons and Clawed Terminators at home. Without grenades they'll strike before you when in cover, and seeing it is a CAD they'll use cover a little more than usual.
3. The Land Raider will be a lost cause. Don't bother bringing it. They haven't been good for quite a few years. If you wanna splurge for a Spartan, they only have one more HP, so it probably cannot be justified either.
4. Forgefiends are pure garbage. Even targeting the prime dudes for them to kill (Warriors), you'll kill less than 3 a turn. The Immortal squad will be even worse (less than 1 dead).
5. Take Combi-Plasma on the Terminators. They will need to target the Doomsday Ark. I say Plasma because hitting the rear armor will be perfectly fine (it'll only be AV11), and assuming rapid fire with just three Plasma Guns you'll knock off 2 HP, with a 40% chance to destroy. I wouldn't choose to Jink it, but your opponent might. Also, take a Chainfist on a SINGLE Terminator. You won't need multiple just in case the strike fails. All 5 in Rapid Fire gives you a 60% chance to kill it accoridng to the Mathhammer site. Pretty cool stuff.
6. You won't be able to do ANYTHING to Wraiths, even in a more optimized CSM list. Someone suggested the Helbrute/Cultist formation, but this won't do much, seeing that Wraiths can choose their targets for the most part.
7. You need more Rhinos. Two more, specifically.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
Strictly by the rulebook, he needs to take a minimum of 2x troops units outside of his Decurion to make the entire army legal. He can't run an Allied detachment alongside a formation, it needs to be a CAD. That's a very easy point to overlook, frankly I forgot about it myself. So he needs at minimum, 20 Warriors and 15 Immortals in his army to fulfill the minimum unit requirements.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/12 21:40:56
Another solution is to use the helbrute "helcult" formation to make your cultists fearless, and when the helbrute dies, it gives them zealot. Fearless cultists will tie things up longer than you think.
I also second everyone who said get some spawn. The box comes with two torsos, but enough mouths, spikes, claws, tentacles, and "other" to build 4 to 5 spawn pretty easily. Just pick up a box of spawn, some greenstuff, extra bases, and a tube or two of dollar store dinosaurs and sea creatures, With some patience and creative plastic butchery, you can have 3 more unique and very useful spawn.
"Because we couldn't be trusted. The Emperor needed a weapon that would never obey its own desires before those of the Imperium. He needed a weapon that would never bite the hand that feeds. The World Eaters were not that weapon. We've all drawn blades purely for the sake of shedding blood, and we've all felt the exultation of winning a war that never even needed to happen. We are not the tame, reliable pets that the Emperor wanted. The Wolves obey, when we would not. The Wolves can be trusted, when we never could. They have discipline we lack, because their passions are not aflame with the Butcher's Nails buzzing in the back of their skulls.
The Wolves will always come to the heel when called. In that regard, it is a mystery why they name themselves wolves. They are tame, collared by the Emperor, obeying his every whim. But a wolf doesn't behave that way. Only a dog does.
That is why we are the Eaters of Worlds, and the War Hounds no longer."
- Eighth Captain Khârn
Well, at least he's not playing a Decurion?
And he's only got 3 ObSec units, none of them in transports, so you shouldn't have to worry too much about being out scored.
I'd say priority one should be the Doomsday Ark. With long range and S10 AP1, best not to let it last past the second turn, if you can manage it.
Next biggest target is the Stalker. It's gonna buff his shooters, so don't let him keep it.
Be wary of the Wraiths. Not because they're all that deadly by themselves. They're fast, fearless and hard to kill. The perfect anvil unit. If I can guess his tactics, I'd say he's attached his HQ to that unit of Lychguard to make one hell of a Hammer unit and plans to Veil them up the table with Obyron to smash into anything the Wraiths have caught.
Don't let him.
Bubble wrap your important stuff if you can, or better yet, get something sacrificial into combat with the Wraiths to waste their time.
The Monoliths should be fine to pretty much ignore. They don't have very far range, so just try to keep your 3+ armor stuff 25" away from them and they won't be much of a worry (or just Melta them so you don't have to worry).
In regards to your own stuff:
• spilt the Marines into four units of 5. Two units hold the mid and back field objectives, two jump in the Rhinos to go capture ones up field. The bikes and Forgefiend go with them. Cultists can stay in the back, too.
• the Raptors and Talons are what you go after the Wraiths with. Yeah, you probably won't be able to kill them, but that's not the point. Their job is to hold the Wraiths up from doing whatever it is he wants to do with them.
• Heldrake goes after the Lychguard if they've got Scythes, or something else if they've got shields (not worth wasting an AP3 flamer if they've got 3++ saves). Probably the Immortals.
• Hellbrute, Terminators and Landraider... *shrug* Can you proxy? Maybe take the Terms as Obliterators? The Hellbrute as a winged Daemon Prince? (or, dare I say, Be'lakor?) Cause if so you'll have a much better list!
With what he has, does that not make decurion? He said with those units he could make the formation, and with me being pretty new I couldn't really tell.
No.
As the poster above me said, he's missing some of the required pieces (3x Tomb Blades, 1x Overlord).
Also, he can't add Obyron and a Lord to a Decurion unless he also adds a Cryptek and an additional Overlord so he can make a Royal Court formation (he should have a couple Overlord models to use, though. They would have come with the Annihilation Barges).
Not only that, but the only way he could play a single Stalker without Praetorians or just 4 Wraiths without an additional Spyder or Scarab unit is in a CAD (only a select few units can be added to a Decurion without needing to take additional required units. eg. if you want to take a unit of Deathmarks, okay, you can add just a unit of Deathmarks. If you want to take a unit of Heavy Destroyers, well, you've gotta take 3 additional units of regular Destroyers, because they can only be added as part of a formation).
Though this part-
Yoyoyo wrote: he can't combine the Immortals into a single squad of 10x models either
- isn't quite true (you can play Immortal in units from 5 to 10 models in a Reclamation Legion).
Basically, I'm guessing because he's new he didn't know... or at least, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Regardless, tell him if he wants to use the rules for the Decurion then he has to follow the requirements for the Decurion, otherwise he has to stick to CAD.
He did have 3 tomb blades, I forgot about those, so Decurion can only be used as a group of formations, some of which he doesn't have, this should help, and yes its because we are new, and had a hard time interpreting it. Thanks all for the great help so far!
Well, that does change things a bit.
So, yes, he can take a Decurion with the Lychguard and Monoliths (as well as the Doomsday Ark and two Annihilation Barges), but the only way he can take Obyron, the Wraiths and Stalker is if he goes CAD instead (unless, of course, he were to get the rest of the required units to take a Royal Court (+1-3 Cryptek, +1 Overlord), a Canoptek Harvest (+1 Spyder, +3-9 Scarabs), and a Judicator Battalion (+2x 5-10 Praetorians). See Necron codex for more details).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/13 11:55:04
People are going to botch but I have had good success running berserk with chain axes in a land raider. Rush it up toward anything with a 4+ armor and you can put out a ton of ap4 wounds. Rp can suck but you eliminate 1 part of there resistance. You need to rush up with multiple other threats like deep strike termies, raptors, and bikes
AP4 is good if you're trying to kill Warriors... but typically, Warriors will be the least of anyone's worries (most good things in the Necron codec are 3+)
Yoyoyo wrote: I'm guessing they would crush Immortals and Warriors even without upgrades.
You'd think, right?
And yet...
*sigh*
at least they're fearless?
and with WS5 they shouldn't be losing too many in combat (so long as it's not against something like Lychguard or Flayed Ones).
So I did the math. 10x Beserkers charging at full strength, armed with a power sword, produce about ~7W on CAD Warriors and ~5W on Immortals. But only about ~5W on Decurion Warriors and ~4W on Immortals. Obviously Formations make a big difference.
That got me thinking, there's a significant disadvantage in playing an older codex without bonus rules. But every CSM unit here is also playable in the Khorne Daemonkin codex. So if you don't want a Psyker, it's viable to run these models out of the Daemonkin book.
That would be a much stronger army even without any proxy units, the only thing missing is a Divination psyker to help out the Forgefiend. And that's pretty easy to ally in.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/14 01:46:13
Did you count in re-rollable RP, overwatch and return damage? Besides, each berserker is almost 2 times as expensive as a warrior. I think it's much safer to not actually kill warriors but to get stuck in combat with them running fearless ob-sec stuff. And preferably with a small squad cause you're protecting yourself from a counter-charge that'd definitely wipe you out.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/14 10:24:00
koooaei wrote: I think it's much safer to not actually kill warriors but to get stuck in combat with them running fearless ob-sec stuff.
FINALLY!
Somebody gets it!
(the other alternative is, "Don't bother too much with Warriors. They're too tough to kill and aren't exactly the most worrying thing they're probably going to be bringing. Focus on neutralizing* the REAL threats.")
*Note: "neutralizing" does not necessarily mean "kill". Engaging a shooty unit in combat will essentially remove it from the game, as far as usefulness to your opponent goes.
I didn't calculate those factors koooaei, moreso just curious about their odds to break a Necron unit. Long story short:
- Bolt Pistols generally kill about 1x Necron Warrior, 74/55/46% chance to kill an Immortal (CAD, Decurion, Decurion w/rerolls)
- Roughly 50/50 chance of losing a Beserker to Warrior overwatch, 1/3 chance to Immortal overwatch
- Assault damage as above. But if Decurion troops are re-rolling 1's near Overlord, subtract 1W
- If 6x Necron models survive, 50/50 chance to lose a Beserker to return damage
Against CAD Warriors, they are testing at -7. Against Decurion Immortals rerolling RP saves of 1, the Immortals probably test at -2 or -3, for a paltry 28% or 42% to break leadership. So not really worth the risk (unless you can debuff LD or increase their damage).
Now before you all mention opportunity cost:
Obsec: 3x min-sized squads with Rhinos are actually cheaper (and Plague Marines will live longer). That's 6x Obsec units versus 1x
Utility: 10x CSM with a ML1 Sorcerer are almost identical in assault... against WS3 units, their damage is actually better
Assaulting from Land Raider: About 5x Terminators with any loadout you want
Anti-armor: 6x Nurgle Obliterators or 3x5 Havocs w/4x Lascannons each
Anti-infantry: 2x Hedrakes and about 3x Nurgle spawn worth of change
Everything: A fully decked-out FW Chaos Knight is cheaper, with a D-weapon and Stomp
Assaulting a 20-strong Fearless Warrior blob: WHY didn't I take Chainaxes
I take it back, there's not much point in running Beserkers without Chainaxes. Because it's the only way in which they create an advantage against another unit in the codex!
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/15 00:12:49
That's what I was saying. Bring chain axes. I had 26 wounds on a unit. Whiteout armor save you kill enough to sweep or win on there turn and they don't get to shoot at you then rinse and repeat. You still need other threats and something to take out any vechicles, but it takes alot of pressure off other things or it just moves around d assaulting anything in the way or on an objective
NOW we get to opportunity cost. To harm Warriors and Flayed Ones in that manner, 10 Berserker Marines, with Chain Axes, is 230 points. Warriors with a Ghost Ark is 235. Even with a Melta Bomb the Berserker Marines won't realistically harm it due to low speed in the first place.
If you want something to tie up everyone forever, take Plague Zombies. If you grab Huron as well, you can infiltrate them as well (average roll being two squads). In a list like that I take Typhusstar, which is obviously Typhus and Spawn. You use them to help sling him into combat, where he actually does okay.
That said, any list with Scatterbikes will ID the Zombies and Destroyers (a unit in the army we are conversing about) can just hop wherever. Still, 70 Fearless bodies for 300 is good for something that you wish to accomplish.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
WHY IS EVERYONE SO FOCUSED ON TRYING TO KILL WARRIORS??
They are the least worrying thing in the Necron codex!
How about you guys try to figure out how to kill T5 3+ 4+++ effectively?
(yes, there are other variety of toughness/saves available, but the majority of the GOOD things in the codex will share this stat line, eg. Lychguard, Destroyers, Praetorians, Tomb Blades, etc. Immortals get pretty close with T4 3+ 4+++, but they're not really much of a threat).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/15 08:53:08
skoffs wrote: WHY IS EVERYONE SO FOCUSED ON TRYING TO KILL WARRIORS??
Because it's fun!
Want me to look at some of the T5/3+/4+++ units? I'll be so happy not to deal with those rerollable 1's.
Might as well. It'd be a more useful discussion than the other one people seem stuck on.
(though, you might not need to worry about the rerolleable 1s for RP. That only happens when the Decurion Warlord is attached to the unit, which doesn't typically occur with most of those types of infantry (the notable exception being Lychguard... but if their Overlord is in with the Lychguard, they more than likely have Shields. In which case, don't even bother trying to kill that unit, they'll be practically invincible. The amount of effort and resources required to put down a Lychguard-star is completely disproportionate to the amount of damage it can do. Not worth it. Just avoid them. They're slow as all hell, so as long as you play keep-away, they can't really do much, and your opponent will have wasted 300+ points on a glorified objective sitter).)
Ok did the maths. Trying to sweep T5/3+ in Decurion:
- Tomb Blades (5x) - Bolt pistols do ~0.37W, Tomb Blades do ~0.37W in overwatch. Sgt does ~0.83W with Power Sword, 9x Beserkers do ~2W, 2x surviving Tomb Blades will return ~0.17W. Chance to sweep is 42%.
- Destroyers (3x) - Bolt pistols do ~0.37W, Destroyers do ~1.04W in overwatch (corrected w/PE, Shred). Sgt does ~0.83W with Power Sword, 8x surviving Beserkers do ~1.78W, 2x surviving Destroyers return ~0.17W. Chance to sweep is 42%.
- Praetorians w/Rod (5x) - Bolt pistols do ~0.37W, Praetorians do ~0.56W in overwatch. Sgt does ~0.83W with Power Sword, 8x surviving Beserkers do ~1.78W, 2 surviving Praetorians do ~1.33W. Chance to sweep is ~9%. Unit is Fearless
- Lychguard w/Scythes (5x) - Bolt pistols do ~0.37W, no overwatch. Sgt does ~0.83W with Power Sword, 9x Beserkers do ~2W, 2x surviving Lychguard return ~1.67W. Chance to sweep is ~3%.
Beserkers attacks mostly bounce off the 3+ units, you need an enabler like Prescience, Enfeeble, or Rending to inflict 4W. So pretty similar to Immortals. Failure to sweep will result in a slapfight where Beserkers do about ~0.66W a turn, so they can't escape a larger unit and risk losing to Necron CC half their cost. This unit needs Hit and Run like nobody's business.
On a brighter note, against AV11:
- S5 attacks - ~4.44HP
- Krak Grenades - ~2.22 HP
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/17 06:01:31
You said Decurion. So I'm curious if the Destroyer math on Overwatch is correct, seeing they get Shred instead of just PE. Also you can't sweep Praetorians as they're Fearless.
The thing you have to ask yourself, though, is how are Berserker Marines actually catching anything BUT the Lychguard, and I have to ask WHY you aren't comparing similar point values. It is of course going to look better when you give Berserker Marines several more points to use compared to, say, Praetorians. 7-8 is a more accurate number to use, for example. I am also curious if you factored in the bonus from their formation as well.
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
The question I'd be asking is: why Berserkers?
Basically the issue at hand is how to kill T5, 3+, 4+++.
Are Berserkers really the best unit for that job? (doesn't just have to be in combat, after all.)
So the real question to as yourself is,
"What is there in the CSM codex that would work best against T5/3+/4+++ units?"
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/17 08:22:23
Sadly the best way to beat necrons (or pretty much anything) with CSM is to use as few CSM as possible. A kitted-out Sorcerer HQ with a few Chosen as bodyguards, sure. Anything else had better not be CSM. Cultist troops for low cost, then fill up everything with stuff that isn't CSM, like Heldrakes and Maulerfiends.
Or buy overpriced Forgeworld stuff and get refused games when opponents have no idea what the hell you're bringing in. A refused game is at least not a loss.
They won't have no idea what you're bringing if you bring the rules for it. gak argument is gak.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Iur_tae_mont wrote: TBH If someone asked me what the best way to kill t5 3+ was, I'd say a Vindy any day of the week.
That's about the point where Gauss becomes point efficient against vehicles. If the opponent sucks at target prioritizing, it'll work. It sounds like the opponent is becoming more aware though.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/17 05:36:13
CaptainStabby wrote: If Tyberos falls and needs to catch himself it's because the ground needed killing.
jy2 wrote: BTW, I can't wait to run Double-D-thirsters! Man, just thinking about it gets me Khorney.
vipoid wrote: Indeed - what sort of bastard would want to use their codex?
MarsNZ wrote: ITT: SoB players upset that they're receiving the same condescending treatment that they've doled out in every CSM thread ever.
skoffs wrote: The question I'd be asking is: why Berserkers?
Basically the issue at hand is how to kill T5, 3++, 4+++.
Are Berserkers really the best unit for that job?
Obviously not. Was simply curious what it takes to sweep Necron units in CC. The only sensible use for Beserkers is give them Chainaxes and point them at Warriors and AV11 vehicles, because even Immortals have a good chance to tarpit them indefinitely.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: You said Decurion. So I'm curious if the Destroyer math on Overwatch is correct, seeing they get Shred instead of just PE. Also you can't sweep Praetorians as they're Fearless.
Good points, I was only looking at the statline with the 4+ Decurion save. I'll correct it.
EDIT: Ugh... I should have remembered an Icon is an easy +1 to combat resolution
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/19 11:49:58
When in doubt do what seems hardest 
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