Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I'm sick of this debate and the poor sports that go along with it. I will capitalize highlighted phrases - its not me yelling.

BRB Page 17, subheading "The Start and End of the Turn"
- " During your game, you may encounter rules that say that an action or event happens 'AT THE START OF YOUR TURN'. These are always resolved BEFORE YOUR MOVEMENT PHASE."

BRB Page 135, subheading "Reserves" - "Arriving from Reserve"
- "AT THE START OF YOUR TURN, roll a D6 for each unit that is being held in reserve - these are know as reserve rolls. If the roll is 3 or more, that unit arrives this turn. If the roll is less than 3 it remains in Reserves and is rolled for again next turn."
" When Reserves arrive, pick on of your arrive units and deploy it."

- the way its worded, this entire phase happens BEFORE your movement phase. Once it is done, then you go onto your movement phase.

BRB, Page 68, subheading "Deployment"
- A flying monstrous creature that is deployed at the start of the game starts in gliding mode. If a flying monstrous creature is kept in reserves then, as soon as it enters play, you must declare whether it is swooping or gliding. If a flying monstrous creature arrives via deep strike reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode."

- Now the issue with this passage isn't in what it says, its what it DOES NOT SAY. Meaning, it does NOT say "If a flying monstrous creature arrives via deep strike reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode, UNTIL THE START OF ITS NEXT TURN." It does not say that last part. People are adding that in.

Subheading "Changing flight mode" same page.
- "AT THE START OF ITS MOVE, a flying monstrous creature must declare whether it is swooping or gliding UNTIL THE STAR OF ITS NEXT TURN. If a flying monstrous creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."

BRB, Page 162 subheading "Arriving by deep strike."

- "IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE deep striking units may not not move any further.

- once again, this does not say "count as having moved and do not receive a movement phase. It specifically says they get a movement phase.

so, logic dictates reserves and arriving from reserves happen BEFORE MOVEMENT PHASE. (See pg 17 & 135) then on to movement phase where a flying monstrous creature that deep struck cannot move any further, per the deepstrike rule, but they still get a movement phase, in which they can change their flying mode DOWN TO GLIDING.

Well what is the point of swooping in then? i hear you ask? To protect your FMC from interceptor units so you can jink.

So, order of play reserves, if successful place units. THEN go onto movement phase. The reason i think this is right, is when played the 3 turn way, swoop, glide, then finally charge, players lose almost 100% of the time. But when played with the above interpretation, players win 50% of the time. I think this reading of the rules is far more balanced and actually has precedents in the rest of the game, while the other one is a dramatic shift and based off faulty wording, or adding words

Uh oh, is this a continuation of that other 11 page monster?

haha no never read that one, this is just a plain reading of the BRB

Or because, y'know, a bunch of lowly humans have more time to react to a Flyrant showing up in the combat area, and dropping down right next to them, than they do to react to a bunch of Warp Talons or TH//SS Termies that materialize right next to them.

Of course, that's just a fluff reason.

You do realize you can jink regardless of which flight mode you are in right?

Also FMCs change flight modes when they MOVE not just in the movement phase. So if they deep struck and can't move they can't declare a flight mode (regardless of having a moving phase or not)

That's not what it says. It says "at the start of your movement phase"

Your quoted rule says "AT THE START OF ITS MOVE"

So you're saying it takes three turns to charge

 Crimson Willy wrote:
So you're saying it takes three turns to charge

It does if you are a FMC that uses the Deep Strike rules to enter play.

They don't start their "move" until the movement phase. The previous deepstrike is deepstrike reserve, NOT movement. All it says is the creature cannot move any further, NOT the unit counts as having moved already

 Crimson Willy wrote:
They don't start their "move" until the movement phase. The previous deepstrike is deepstrike reserve, NOT movement. All it says is the creature cannot move any further, NOT the unit counts as having moved already

If you can't move how can you change flight modes?

Can't they run after the DS ?

because changing flight modes is done at a certain time, at the start of your movement phase, not by whether or not you've actually moved any distance. They're two different processes



Automatically Appended Next Post:
because changing flight modes is done at a certain time, at the start of your movement phase, not by whether or not you've actually moved any distance. They're two different things. Once again your confusing "may not move any further" with "counts as having moved already." The rulebook does not say the latter

 Crimson Willy wrote:
because changing flight modes is done at a certain time, at the start of your movement phase, not by whether or not you've actually moved any distance. They're two different processes

You just misquoted your own quote again. It doesn't say they change flight modes at the start of the movement phase. It says "At the start of its move".

Now, there is an opportunity in the shooting phase where you can run... and a run is a move. So technically you can change your flight mode when you run. Usually this doesn't mean anything because the full rule for changing flight mode says "Until the start of its next turn." but that clause hasn't been triggered yet in this circumstance.

Looks like this is not solved so easily ... hmmm

Perhaps you could requote the change wording?

If its the Start of Movement, you have a RAW argument. If its the Start of their Move, you probably don't.

Look we can go round and round on this all day. Even though Deepstriking means you can't move any further it doesn't count as a move, or it would say "You can't as having moved" thats not what it says. The interpretation that reserves happen before movement is right there. Then when the army gets to movement phase the units move. deepstruck unit is stuck in place, but it is not denied a move phase.

This interpretation make FMC follow the same precedent that every other deep striking unit follows for what three rule books now? it also balances the game correctly. AND it is the interpretation 60% of ITC players chose. Your saying GW completely changed the way FMC operate and didn't make it clear?

 Crimson Willy wrote:
Look we can go round and round on this all day. Even though Deepstriking means you can't move any further it doesn't count as a move, or it would say "You can't as having moved" thats not what it says. The interpretation that reserves happen before movement is right there. Then when the army gets to movement phase the units move. deepstruck unit is stuck in place, but it is not denied a move phase.

This interpretation make FMC follow the same precedent that every other deep striking unit follows for what three rule books now? it also balances the game correctly. AND it is the interpretation 60% of ITC players chose. Your saying GW completely changed the way FMC operate and didn't make it clear?

So you're saying it's not RAW but HIWPI.

And that's fine.

I just gave you a RAW solution above to make it work the same way.

oh i got ya

Some people like to make things way too difficult. I think in a very practical sense which is what really matters it's all quite clear.

You should be able to mouse over the acronyms and see what they are. But RAW = Rules as Written and HIWPI = How I Would Play It. This section of the forum mostly discusses RAW and the forum rules ask that you differentiate when you're talking RAW vs HIWPI.

really the big debate is when reserves happen, and people are clouding the issue from words written in 6th edition, that are now different, or misquoted, or not there in 7th

It sounds like you've already made up your mind and don't need us to tell you if you're wrong or right.

not true, but if i'm wrong i want a definitive answer, with a quote, that comes from 7th edition, not vague recollections of previous editions and different wording

 Crimson Willy wrote:
not true, but if i'm wrong i want a definitive answer, with a quote, that comes from 7th edition, not vague recollections of previous editions and different wording

No one has mentioned previous editions except you. You're arguing against ghosts. You've quoted all the relevant rules in the OP (Original Post).

As you say, Deep Strike happens first.

Then this rules triggers.

BRB, Page 68, subheading "Deployment"
- If a flying monstrous creature arrives via deep strike reserve, it always counts as being in swooping mode."

So it's Swooping.

Now the movement phase happens. "IN THE MOVEMENT PHASE deep striking units may not not move any further." And the FMC doesn't get to move during the Movement Phase, thus the next rule doesn't trigger.

"AT THE START OF ITS MOVE, a flying monstrous creature must declare whether it is swooping or gliding UNTIL THE STAR OF ITS NEXT TURN. If a flying monstrous creature changes flight modes during its turn, it cannot declare a charge during the same turn."

But... in the shooting phase, you may still run. A run is a move. Thus the above rule WILL trigger and you get to change to Gliding. Thus allowing you to charge on the following turn (usually turn 3 or 4).

So you see, if you actually read what I posted earlier, instead of just attacking arguments that nobody is making (I believe that's called a strawman?), then you would see that what you want is allowed by RAW (Rules as Written).

i'm not attacking, i was just talking. I'm not doing it in an angry tone, your projecting that onto my words.I appreciate your inpute. But then we reach the inevitable conclusion that running is running, not technically "Moving" right?

 Crimson Willy wrote:
i'm not attacking, i was just talking. I'm not doing it in an angry tone, your projecting that onto my words.I appreciate your inpute. But then we reach the inevitable conclusion that running is running, not technically "Moving" right?

Negative, it's described as a move. It's just done in a different phase from the movement phase. I did project an angry tone since the literal first words of your post was "I'm sick of this debate".

See it's shenanigans like this that makes me wish for a return to the old simplicity that was 3rd edition.

Where having wings just means you got an extra 6" and deepstrike explicitly happened at the end of the movement phase.

You were referring to my attacking arguments no one was making, not my original OP

besides that being sick of something is not the same thing as being mad about something.

and its not attacking arguments no one was making, i wasn't attacking anything, and i was preempting any problems with vague answers. I was just asking for clear wording from 7th edition. It seems you have gotten a little sensitive about this thread

Yes all reserves happen before the movement phase. In fact that common misunderstanding is what people think makes Blood Tithe Summoned FMCs special flowers when they aren't.

You've quote all the relevant rules and you're stuck in Swooping until the start of your next turn and are unable to move and thus change flight mode in your movement phase.

This really is cut and dry. As you say there are plenty of bad sports out there that are trying to cheat with their FMCs but the rules are abundantly clear.