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 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

A guy can come up and play a pure IG list and still win the day.

You lost a lot of plausibility when you said this. Given that the IG army is at, if maybe ever so slightly above, the level of Chaos Marines then by your standards a pure CSM list should be able to take all comers and win, which it cant.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

FREE drop pod you mean

 Formosa wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

A delivery system that costs a fair chunk more than a drop pod, has the potential to eat the models inside, and then has flyer rules tacked on.

It is totally better than a 35pt drop pod

FREE drop pod you mean

Free/35pts, basically the same thing in comparison to the dreadclaw

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Slayer le boucher wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
So it's okay for IoM to ally but not Chaos? That's a silly attitude at best. Eldar ally with DE and Harlequins. It's the game now.

A guy can come up and play a pure IG list and still win the day.

You lost a lot of plausibility when you said this. Given that the IG army is at, if maybe ever so slightly above, the level of Chaos Marines then by your standards a pure CSM list should be able to take all comers and win, which it cant.

Yeah dunno why i said IG honestly..., at the time it cam up my mind.

I just work with what I have available. I enjoy playing Chaos too which I think is really the main thing.

I think it depends on what you like about chaos. Some people see chaos demons as a natural part of the chaos space marines, while others see them as entirely separate factions. A lot of us is due to legions...obviously if you play a cult or word bearers you are probably more open to demons than a iron warriors or alpha legion player.

Really, a legion dex would be best if it was stand alone with an option to ally in the demons book. It would probably make the largest percent of chaos players happy.

Demons don't make a lot for about half the the traitor legions. Alpha and Iron warriors arn't the biggest fan and Nightlords don't have much love for them either. Thats not to say they would never, but thematically it makes sense that they would prefer to be pure marine.

Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.


Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Man, all these people that want to play legions should just use a 30k list.

Legion specific rules, no Daemons unless they're included in your legion specific rules, standard legion organization, the works. Drop pods, even!

If you want to play a legion, use the Legion list.

If you want to play the fragmented, disconcerted, and unravelled mess of a legion that is the 40k Chaos Space Marines, then I'm sorry, but your warband probably needs allies.


Fortunately, everywhere I've played allows 30k vs 40k.

Not the first time i've heard this, and while i do like the traitement FW gave fotr Legions, they are SPACE MARINES LEGIONS rules and lists, not CHAOS SPACE MARINES LEGIONS.

We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

3.5 dex delivered this and we where happy, so its not impossible to do, just that the Studio lacks any guy that is a CSM fan, because lets be honest here, each codex is made by guys that play, or like the said army/race to begin with, the latest guys who where CSM players at GW studio did leave the boat a decade ago.

That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

But again that's 30k, not codex CSM.

Don't get me wrong I love 30k, I love all the idea of all the additional things (from dataslate to Black Legion supplement and allies etc [ not a fan of the implementation, but that's another topic]).

But it would be nice to just use things from codex CSM, like how Eldar can practically use any unit, or have something akin to chapter tactics like marines have that makes things variable. Rather than 2 nurgle marked units and daemons + IA3 units + KDK. Which is just the CSM label slapped on the top of a box where the original label is crossed out.

Word Bearers are knowed for their use of Deamons, but its not the only thing they did/do, they are much more then that.

Just like Nightlords are not only about Raptors.

Maybe i always look at the dark sides of things, but you sure focus on the one or two good things of things( even though the other 65 things are bad).

Now to be clear, You have fun and think its okay how you use your list and how CSM are, wich is perfectly your right.

But for the others like us who played 3.5dex and are jaded, things as they are now, are not good and they look rather bleak.

I'm actively using deepstrike of solo daemon models like obliterators and mutilators.

Ally in a squad of daemons with a banner.
Deep strike our own daemon units and they only scatter d6 when within 6" of the banner.

I take daemonettes for this role. They also bring in masque to lock down strong melee and weaken shooty units but that's another story.

Tried using dimensional key but it generally activates only on the 2-d turn. Difterrain within 12 is quite cool though.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That is not true - just look at the rules for Word Bearers... they can summon daemons. Wow you always look on the dark side of everything.

But again that's 30k, not codex CSM.

Don't get me wrong I love 30k, I love all the idea of all the additional things (from dataslate to Black Legion supplement and allies etc [ not a fan of the implementation, but that's another topic]).

But it would be nice to just use things from codex CSM, like how Eldar can practically use any unit, or have something akin to chapter tactics like marines have that makes things variable. Rather than 2 nurgle marked units and daemons + IA3 units + KDK. Which is just the CSM label slapped on the top of a box where the original label is crossed out.

Put this in your signature so you can stop repeating yourself.

Maybe one day it will happen but then again maybe not any time soon. I used to lament over BA but eventually learnt to move along.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
Word Bearers are knowed for their use of Deamons, but its not the only thing they did/do, they are much more then that.

Just like Nightlords are not only about Raptors.

Maybe i always look at the dark sides of things, but you sure focus on the one or two good things of things( even though the other 65 things are bad).

Now to be clear, You have fun and think its okay how you use your list and how CSM are, wich is perfectly your right.

But for the others like us who played 3.5dex and are jaded, things as they are now, are not good and they look rather bleak.

I played CSM when they were a power house as well as BA. Like I said above I eventually found other things.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

No, we do not have an excellent delivery system, as shown by loads of Gladius Strike Forces at tournaments, but I've never heard of a CSM drop pod list.

 Slayer le boucher wrote:
We want to play the Legions how they currently are, not how they where 10kyears ago.

The CSM dex is supposed to represent the legions as they currently are. And if it doesn't have no fear - GW will happily change all the fluff to make it so!

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

You forgot something important in pros: it is objective secured if taken by csm or sometimes also chosen. That can be huge in maelstrom games. It has won me games.
Also, being a flyer and not a drop pod, we can keep our guys hidden inside rather than being forced to disembark, should we so choose.
And as for the cons: yes the fast attack slot is crowded, but the fire raptor and heldrake are completely different units. Nobody in their right mind would take a dreadclaw with the express intent of causing damage. Comparing to a storm eagle would be more fair and that isn't in the same slot. Not saying your wrong or anything though. I'd only ever take it as a dedicated myself.

Still, overall I agree. I like the claw but I would prefer if it had guidance (read: it really needs guidance). I mean...it' sentient enough to eat your guys, why not sentient enough to crash into enemy units and eat those? I could live with the claw instead of drop pods if we got some shenanigans of our own. Its a cool idea but it needs refining. As it is currently, it can't hope to compete with drop pods. That said though, if you treat it as a drop pod it sucks. Treat it as as an assault vehicle valkyrie and it fares much better. I enjoy it and it has done good things for me. Just...don't you dare stick a dread in there.

Same goes for the kharybdis really. It's really cool and I want to love it, but it just doesn't live up to the fluff at all. Wayy wayyyy too expensive. But really satisfying to use when it goes right lol.
By itself though the Dreadclaw works ok. It needs some further tuning but yea, comparing it the formation buffs loyalists get isn't quite fair. On it own its comparable. If it had guidance and costed more like 80ish points it would be good...different...but still good. The fact that these don't become paperweight can make a huge difference and the pseudo flamer is heaps better than the droppod bolter.

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw is a delivery system... Check out its rules. Like I said it's much better than a drop pod.

Let's do a pros and cons

Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway.
Heat blast attack
Can move
Frag launchers

Cons:
100 points, so you get almost three Loyalist pods for the same price - if you're paying at all.
Can only be taken as a DT by Chosen, Dreads and CSMs. Chosen are incredibly overpriced, and very few take CSMs. If you need Troops, Tournament Lists always go for the cheap Cultists. CSM dreads cost the same as their Loyalist counterparts... but have 2 A less.
Takes a Fast Attack slot. CSMs do have two other good units in that slot, which are far better - the Fire Raptor and the Heldrake.
No inertial guidance system

No, we do not have an excellent delivery system, as shown by loads of Gladius Strike Forces at tournaments, but I've never heard of a CSM drop pod list.

So what transport can you assault out of the first turn besides the Khybardis ?

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

The Fire Raptor is really good but the Heldrake anymore... do you really need three Fire Raptors ?

CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor.

"CSM dreads suck but we have the awesome Chaos Contemptor" ...if you like playing with fire that is lol. For infantry units the whole eating thing isn't a deal breaker, you lose 1 guy out of ten..maybe. But with a dread, you lose everything. You roll that 1 and you lose 200 some points right there and then.

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

You can't assault out of a Dreadclaw or Khyribdis (outside of the formation) the turn they arrive either because you just came from reserves.

I believe it was in response to Chaz:
"Pros:
Assault vehicle, but still arrives from Deep Strike, so units inside can't assault anyway"

 kronk wrote:
Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

He started playing wargames from 1971

 loki old fart wrote:

 kronk wrote:
Be kind, guys. Dozer Blades is only 12, I think.

He started playing wargames from 1971

Well he got lost in time

I may not agree with him, but personal insults do nothing to benefit your argument.

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

You can't assault out of a Dreadclaw or Khyribdis (outside of the formation) the turn they arrive either because you just came from reserves.

You can never assault out of a drop pod.

That's because everyone is forced to disembark from a Drop Pod now.

If they weren't they'd be able to because it's Open Topped (which is what BT players could do before the 6th Ed SM 'dex).

 Dozer Blades wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:

You cannot assault out of drop pods the turn they arrive.

You can't assault out of a Dreadclaw or Khyribdis (outside of the formation) the turn they arrive either because you just came from reserves.

You can never assault out of a drop pod.

So? neither unit is making an assault until turn 2 giving your opponent ample time to counter respond thus making it ineffective delivery tactic for assault for Drop Pods and Dreadclaws

The dreadclaw obviously is the better choice to launch an assault. Drop pods are primarily for alpha strikes.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The dreadclaw obviously is the better choice to launch an assault. Drop pods are primarily for alpha strikes.

At least drops are good at something