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Oh come on Martel, don't buy into that Mutilators/Warp Talon garbage.

It's too late, he already has.

It 'confirms' his belief that BA with their grav weapons are actually worse than us...

"Oh, but you've got Daemon allies! Look at how Allies fixes everything for the Imperium and l2p"

Yeah, that's nice and all, but all the broken ally shenanigans comes from putting characters into units and allowing rules interactions where they were never intended. You can't do that with CSM and daemons because of daemonic instability and you can't do that with KDK unless you're just allying more khorne or undivided since marked units can't join other differently marked units.

What other codex actively punishes you for taking options in the dex? Crap like the Tzeentch table being utter trash bar doombolt, paying 10 points for the nurgle icon (handing out fear) on a unit with the daemon special rule already like possessed, or paying for an icon of vengance on a fearless unit, or paying points for mark of slaanesh on oblits who can only ever have powerfist attacks and can't take the FNP icon, or making the banner of blood the same price for berserkers who already get half the bonuses, the examples of basic crap like this just don't end.

Where I play, forgeworld is a no-on unless it's Apoc, and even then there's a limit on how much is acceptable, so no IA13 for me.

So no, when the outcome of a game is determined not by player skill, not by dice luck, not even by list advantage but purely and utterly by what codex my opponent is bringing? Yeah, nah, CSM is not relevant to anything anymore unless you're playing against BA, Guard or non-MC spam 'nids.

CSM don't have delivery options? Dakka please, CSM don't have options for anything except for sucking and losing.

Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res. You're not paying 10 points for absolutely nothing. Also on a per squad basis MoS is cheap for obliterators, even if it doesn't allow for much other than better running away success (and blinding avoidance?).

I'm not saying these upgrades are priced right, but they aren't completely tax for no reason.

If people are making arbitrary rules in games against you that you feel badly effect your army, perhaps you should do the same to them?

I guess banner of blood is a KDK thing? otherwise, if by banner of blood you mean icon of wrath, well then Zerker's do get a discount on that one, and the bonuses they do get are decent (improved charges, improvements to attached characters, combat resolution bonus).

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

 Homeskillet wrote:


I already said I acknowledge the Codex isn't good. However, that doesn't mean people want to hear all the internet uber-Generals complain. Work with what you have, get creative, and practice to become a better player. You want to play Tzeentch? Get creative and come up with some combos that play off that. My Alpha Legion isn't "shoehorned into playing Nurgle". I don't have a single marked unit in my list. I wanted to make a competitive list that fit within my vision for my Alpha Legion, and I did; the units synergize well and I play it well, and therefore I win more than I lose.

Out of curiosity, what is your list?

Synergy doesn't help when you get wiped from the board first turn. Cover be damned.

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

Because they aren't a significant counter to losing combat. Since CSM aren't durable they often lose by more then a few wounds against units that are actually going to be assaulting them (unlike necrons who are so durable that they barely lose combat if at all)

 CrownAxe wrote:

Yoyoyo wrote:

nareik wrote:
Oh come on, lets be honest the 10 points for fear on a fear causing unit isn't really for fear, but is for the +1 combat res.

I routinely hear about the constant dangers of CSM losing in assault without ATSKNF (at LD9). I routinely hear about the difficulty in sweeping Necrons in assault (at LD10).

I can't say I ever hear about Icons though.

Because they aren't a significant counter to losing combat. Since CSM aren't durable they often lose by more then a few wounds against units that are actually going to be assaulting them (unlike necrons who are so durable that they barely lose combat if at all)

Then there's also the fact that the Icons are almost entirely useless for you actual assault specialists... The only one of any worth is the Slaanesh FnP icon.

And then you get stupidity like Tzeentch Possessed who have 0 shooting weapons, having the option to pay for an Icon who's bonus is to give Soul Blaze to all their non-existant Bolt pistols/Bolters/Heavy bolters!
Or Nurgle units causing Fear - easily the single most useless USR in the game, since over half the armies in the game outright ignore it.

Plus the Crimson Slaughter hands out Fear. For free.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Plus the Crimson Slaughter hands out Fear. For free.

And Nurgle Slaughter, (Snotty Slaughter?! Mucus Murderers!?), can pay for double the pointlessness!

You don't understand! +1 to combat resolution is SOOOO worth the points!

CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

Is that code word for "terrible internal and external balance"?

What are you talking about? Khorne trucks no salt.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

But your lists have virtually no csm in them, so how is that a challenge?

It's still possible to do good with mostly csm. Khornate or Slaaneshits. Nurgle's just too expensive for current meta imo.

It's not so much Nurgle's too expensive, it just too expensive to spam on everything.

You're not going to convince me that t4 Cultists or t5 Basic CSM are worth two more points with all the Mid to high power shots nowadays

But on a Spawn squad/ Biker Blob, stuff like that...


TBH I tend to go mostly Undivided. I can get just about another Marine or another squad of cultists for the cost of Marks and most of the bonuses just aren't worth putting on every unit.

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:

TBH I tend to go mostly Undivided. I can get just about another Marine or another squad of cultists for the cost of Marks and most of the bonuses just aren't worth putting on every unit.

That's the thing, marks aren't / weren't / shouldn't be about making a unit objectively better than it was for the points than an unmarked unit, as then it's a case of punishing 1/2 the legion players for playing Undivided legions as well as punishing the 3 gods whose mark isn't as good. They're meant to be about giving the unit a theme and a bit of an advantage against some things and a weakness to others.

Unfortunately, the base units are trash for the most part and +1 toughness is so much better than everything else that it's either nurgle (because +1T is great on some units) or nothing (because even +1T doesn't help if you're still wounded on 2's so you might as well get more models). Doesn't help that it's just a stat change instead of modifying how the unit works either, nor that most marks (and upgrades like votlw) are quite overpriced.

 Drasius wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
CSM was the first sixth edition codex... Of course it's very dated and overall not competitive. For some of us it is a fun and challenging codex to use. Comments like using allies or FW is lame is pretty hilarious... Sure we should fight with both hands tied behind our back. It's really easy to point out all the flaws. One thing I really like about CSM is it a true challenge rather than more super cheese.

But your lists have virtually no csm in them, so how is that a challenge?

Exactly. Denial isn't just a river in Egypt .

 Homeskillet wrote:

 Battlesong wrote:
Basically as a CSM player, I ask for a level of parity. No, in a game like this there is no way to have perfect parity and I wouldn't want that anyway, but all of the codices should be able to at least compete on their own against other codices without having to add any other books. The CSM codex cannot stand on its own against a good portion of the other armies that are out there and that's the crux of the issue.

With help from Forgeworld, I feel like it can at least hang out in the shallower end of the big kids pool, lol.

And that's my point, the 'dex needs outside help to even start to stand on its own

That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

Except that the book was generally not very good even when it was new. My playgroup at that point laughingly dubbed it "Codex: Heldrake Delivery System" as that's pretty much all it had. So, you're argument holds much less weight because its age is not why it's bad, it just exacerbates the situation......

It is so good to see so many people point out how weak CSM is. Finaly people know my pain. Its like watching newbies play dark souls and getting curb stomped by the tutorial boss.

Most people move on and start a different army. I did that and regret not choosing Eldar... I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

 Filch wrote:
I wasted my money yet again. If I wanted to win, I should have bought eldar net list or necron decurion, or SM gladius, or tau tide wing.

Chaos won TSHFT with "renegades, chaos knight and a smattering of tzeentch daemons. All zombies and Thudd guns with rapiers for the renegades".

Don't you have a bunch of Chaos Knights and Zombies already? Save yourself some money.

Do you have an actual list? I was unable to find one and if CSM won I'd certainly like to see it.

I can't give point-for-point but It apparently had something like this:

ML3 Sorc
Zombies
9 thudd guns
Rapier laser batteries
Daemon knight
Tz Horror and Herald for demon summoning (Grimoire?)
VSG

Copying netlists is overrated, it helps throw people off balance when you show up with something unexpected.

Well, the netlists that you see floating around are harmed a lot by the ITC rules, which this tournament used. Things like the centstar, eldar and their strength D, and the Tau formations are nerfed quite a bit in the ITC format, so you end up seeing other armies cropping up.

That being said, this doesn't really take much from the CSM codex, though it does show the strength of the FW options. Which no one is denying, they are strong. But this isn't what I would call a CSM list...it has 2 units from the CSM dex? Unless the zombies were spammed, and it doesn't look like they could be overly much, the majority of the dex is not CSM.

Which is sad, but about what I expected...

 Dozer Blades wrote:
That's not really a big deal if you want to play Chaos. It's the oldest sixth edition codex so of course it lags behind newer books.

Some of us don't want to play chaos, they want to play csm (ie. No Daemons) and some further still aren't allowed forgeworld in their meta. As others have said, the only really good thing csm had was the heldrake, and even then it got a nerfing and is not worth the points in many matches.

Regardless of age, you have been arguing that the book is fine, but now you've said it lags behind the newer dexes (ie. All of them). So which is it? The CSM codex (and its 2 virtually identical supplements) is just fine on its own with no forgeworld or Daemon Allies, or the CSM codex (and its 2 virtually identical supplements) is so uncompetitive as to be virtually unplayable without forgeworld and Daemon Allies?

CSM is competitive with allies and Forgeworld. I recently went 3-0 at a local RTT not too long ago. Like I've said make due with all the tools you have available. Forgeworld has become much more mainstream so it's not an issue for many of us.