Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

The Empire doesn't do it because its not reusable and a non-reusable planet buster isn't much of a terror weapon. The Imperium doesn't do it because destroying entire planets with a one-use weapon isn't an efficient use of their resources. In this case, if either side wanted to destroy a single planet with a non-interceptable relativistic munition, I can think of little else that would create that level of destruction for as little cost (time and money).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient.

How is it inefficient? It only needs to destroy one thing. Who cares if it is not reusable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Seriously? It's not like such a superweapon would be inaccurate either... All it needs is propulsion and astrogation.

At the highest levels, calcs place exterminatus weapons at the low 100's petaton yield. You need to bring said weapon into the star system past the enemy's defenses to bring them to bear. A normal asteroid strike is 0.1 petatons. A moon travelling at lightspeed has 6.6e39J energy. That's 1.5e15 petatons.

Also, let me know why it needs to be reusable when a single use weapon is sufficient to shatter the Imperium as a cohesive fighting force. The Empire would be outgunned at the start of such a fictional conflict, so time is of the essence. A hyperdrive equipped moon uses existing technology. Moving such a large object with hyperdrive is also not unprecedented. Is there some other less clunky but equally effective weapon that you suggest might be quickly developed from off the shelf parts, speedily built for immediate deployment (i.e. as soon as a hyperspace route to Terra is mapped)? If they are "fighting" (i.e. LOSING against) the Imperium, the Empire doesn't have 30 years to build Starkiller Base.

Because Terra isn't the only place you have to worry about

Plus how would the star wars universe reach the 40k universe? Warp Drives can go over the entirety of the galaxy where star wars has to keep their jumps short.Even if they were able to get into the terran system or go to a nearby plantiod system (Which is in no doubt guarded by the imperium) Even then the likilhood of it getting past the sol systems defenses. Because you would have to have the asteriod or meteroid have engines on the back of it propel it through space to get their reasonable quick.

The amount of time it would take for the asteriod to get there would be extremely slow and even then the simple fact is that it would be very difficult to even get there. Two what if they miss. Three cost efficiency. The cost of having to do this and then having to secure one and then being able to propel it would be astronomically high. Four the empire wouldn't be able to do so without their forces being significantly reduced. The plants defenses known as Star Fortresses have a gravitional pull to their own or you know the imperium uses their own defense system that would devastate and shatter the entirety of the moon that was thrown at them because of lance batteries and nova cannons which can shatter and break apart planets.

You would also have to account for the fact that the Empire would have to deal with not only the imperial navy at the same time, but their own captial world be destroyed and brought into ruin their commanders and leaders can easily be dealt with while the imperium not so much.

Lets give this impossible scenario (All though already in a seriously doubtful scenario of 40k vs star wars fight) You take out terra, What then?

The imperium still lives? Will the Empire really think it would be able to conquer the entirety of the Imperium with little support?

You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

Destroying terra would ultimately be for the betterment of the entire imperium.

All the chaos gods care about is having the emperor die so they can retreat back to their realms.

The chaos god's interest in the material world is superficial. With no enemy to fight other than the necrons. The Chaos Gods would withdraw much of their effort to destroy the imperium. Because their greatest enemy is gone. What need would there be?

And even then we don't know what other unforeseen consequences destroying terra would bring. For all we know, The Emperor could remanifiest himself and the entirety of the imperium reborn anew.

We ultimately don't know what would happen.

But it is completely unreasonable to believe that even with the empire's victory over the imperium by destroying its capital that the imperium wouldn't find a way to get back at them. Even the Star Wars Empire couldn't conquer the imperium. Conquering every single world would be difficult and would take many years to complete if not eternity. You know.... If the imperium didn't have mars, and several other places that could be established as human core worlds. The only way to destroy the imperium would be to destroy its heart. Which is destroying the entirety of the sol system.

Just re: Death Star on Pg 1, the Imperium has a Death Star on every ship, and they regularly face things that are worse than Death Stars like Blackstone Forgresses and Abaddon's Planetkiller (which is comparable to Starkiller Base of the First Order except it shoots the star to wipe a system instead of blowing up each planet by sucking up the star). If you mean a prime target that would break the opponent's war effort, that's Terra. And you DO NOT get near Terra. Abaddon has billions of troops and 13 crusades and hasn't got close, and his warriors are all more powerful than Stormtoopers. Terra has Asteroid Belt defences, the Ad Mech, the local fleet which would make the Imperial fleet seem like a rowing boat next to the Spanish Armada, the Grey Knights are in system who can also see the future, Terra's void shields which withstood months of bombardment, the palace itself, trillions of civilians who would gladly die in defence of the Emperor, 300 Custodes, plus 2 Titans in the throne room (and even Knights or Warhounds would anihilate AT-ATs in a fight due to massive mobility and firepower.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

I hope you are kidding. Its obvious that the Imperium isn't beaten, however, three things will occur with Terra gone, Chaos Gods nonwithstanding (since this is a IoM vs Empire fight after all). I think your assessment of Terra's loss to the IoM is grossly underestimated.

1. Most importantly, the Astronomicon will be gone, meaning that organized resistance will be gone until the Imperium can figure out an alternate way of warp navigation. IoM Fleets can't be coordinated. Fleets in transit will be LOST. Planets can't be resupplied!
2. With the Emperor dead: Imperial Cult will collapse and there is a great possibility that the IoM will fragment into civil war, since the IoM functioned on oppression and since the Astronomicon is gone and there will be no repercussions for insurrection. Considering the standard of living in the Empire is significantly better than in the IoM, it is not unthinkable that entire worlds, cut off from their supplying agri-worlds on the brink of starvation might go over to the Empire.
3. The longer their worlds are isolated, the greater the chance that the IoM will need to "Great Crusade" its own worlds before embarking on a counter offensive.

Regarding asteroid delivery: Clarification: Hyperspace bypasses realspace when the equipped vessel (or rock) accelerates to lightspeed. Sol system's defenses can't attack something not in realspace. On top of that, the firepower needed to vaporize a moon is in the 10000's petatons, and the moon would be exiting Hyperspace at light speed - if Terra's defenses extend out to 100 million km in each direction, response time for intercept would be 1 minute.

Given response time to Starkiller Base's startup time, and the distance from Starkiller Base to the Resistance's stronghold, distances of half a galactic diameter can be travelled in under a day, so I fail to see how this weapon would be slow. The main issue would be mapping the hyperspace route, but as indicated before, using a probe droid swarm and a modicum of espionage to point them in the right direction, this shouldn't take long either. (Maybe a few months).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
Just re: Death Star on Pg 1, the Imperium has a Death Star on every ship

None of the ships in the IoM's regular arsenal have output to vaporize a planet. The planet killer is not a part of the Imperial fleet.

Re: Blackstone Fortress: It is believed that all but one of the Blackstone Fortresses has been destroyed, and that fortress has been possessed by the essence of the Chaos God Slaanesh since the end of the 13th Black Crusade in 999.M41.

 keezus wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
You destroyed Terra, You have painted a giant X on your back. The Imperium is in shamables but the sleeping giant awakens, technology thought lost is brough back to life, the warp dimension connecting to the webway gone forever, the chaos gods finally appeased, withdraw from the warp.

I hope you are kidding. Its obvious that the Imperium isn't beaten, however, three things will occur with Terra gone, Chaos Gods nonwithstanding (since this is a IoM vs Empire fight after all). I think your assessment of Terra's loss to the IoM is grossly underestimated.

1. Most importantly, the Astronomicon will be gone, meaning that organized resistance will be gone until the Imperium can figure out an alternate way of warp navigation. IoM Fleets can't be coordinated. Fleets in transit will be LOST. Planets can't be resupplied!
2. With the Emperor dead: Imperial Cult will collapse and there is a great possibility that the IoM will fragment into civil war, since the IoM functioned on oppression and since the Astronomicon is gone and there will be no repercussions for insurrection. Considering the standard of living in the Empire is significantly better than in the IoM, it is not unthinkable that entire worlds, cut off from their supplying agri-worlds on the brink of starvation might go over to the Empire.
3. The longer their worlds are isolated, the greater the chance that the IoM will need to "Great Crusade" its own worlds before embarking on a counter offensive.

Regarding asteroid delivery: Clarification: Hyperspace bypasses realspace when the equipped vessel (or rock) accelerates to lightspeed. Sol system's defenses can't attack something not in realspace. On top of that, the firepower needed to vaporize a moon is in the 10000's petatons, and the moon would be exiting Hyperspace at light speed - if Terra's defenses extend out to 100 million km in each direction, response time for intercept would be 1 minute.

Given response time to Starkiller Base's startup time, and the distance from Starkiller Base to the Resistance's stronghold, distances of half a galactic diameter can be travelled in under a day, so I fail to see how this weapon would be slow. The main issue would be mapping the hyperspace route, but as indicated before, using a probe droid swarm and a modicum of espionage to point them in the right direction, this shouldn't take long either. (Maybe a few months).

Considering my optimism, in a Scenario where the Adeptus Astartes or hell the people who could predict the future would probably see this coming a mile away.

All this science is thrown out the window once a pysker gets involved, if say the emperor just blinked and it phased from existence. Then the problem would be gone. It has happened many times where all of a sudden something happened protecting sol/terra.

CConsidering the expense and the possiblity of lugging a giant rock with a hyper drive it would put that tiny ship into considerable problems and the calculations would have to be extremely accurate to the point of maddening.

As the Empire has NEVER EVER. Done this in any of its material or even thought of this. Then no I don't think it is reasonable to conclude. That the empire. The idiots who lost to a bunch of Ewoks and Rebellious teenagers would win again one of the most compentent military minded empire in the entirety of science fiction. (Baring that of a few other science fiction organizations)

The idea they would have to specifically tailor a hyper drive, a lugging vechile, and also calculating the distance and power required to do so.

So for example from the wiki:

Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at lightspeed or faster.[1] By entering hyperspace, a starship could take advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace to reduce journey time significantly, "jumping" from a specific point to another point without having to travel directly between them.[2] However, large objects in realspace cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps necessitated very precise calculations.[1] Without those, a vessel could fly right through a star or another celestial body.[2] Because of the danger, there existed predetermined hyperspace routes which interstellar travellers could take. Sometimes, the discovery of new safe hyperspace routes could play a pivotal role in a war, as it would allow naval forces to move faster unbeknownst to their adversaries.[3] A vessel's ability to travel through hyperspace depended on its being equipped with a hyperdrive engine.[4] Quick jumps into hyperspace could be unsettling to even experienced pilots, but those with the proper stamina and training could overcome this.[5] The Galactic Empire employed Interdictor cruisers to disable hyperspace capabilities in other vessels, both to pull them from hyperspace and to prevent them from making the jump to it.[6]

It was technically possible for a vessel, such as a shuttle, to disembark from another vessel while in hyperspace, but the procedure carried extreme risk. Such a move would tear the disembarking vessel violently out of hyperspace.[7]

Hyperspace travel was mastered as early as four millennia before the First Order–Resistance conflict, as demonstrated by the existence of hyperspace sextants from that era.[8] At the time of the First Order–Resistance conflict, the First Order discovered sub-hyperspace, which they utilized by their superweapon, the Starkiller Base.[9]

A substintially sized object would cast a shadow within hyper space, that and the calculations have to have according to my calculations a .0001% calculation against error.

Which is inhuman and almost impossible to do with any type of technology.

Few months? Try a couple decades at best.

The man power, the resources, the management, that and also having to deal with the imperium at the same time would spell certain doom for the operation in general.

You are being holly optimistic if you believe they could pull it off without the Imperium knowing something is up. This isn't star trek or stargate where there are characters so damn near perfect or intelligent that they could calculate basically anything, taking them twenty minutes to fix some of hte most complicated objects known to man.

It would take alot more resources than that. Even if the Imperials could pull this off, which is astronomically low. Then what then? all their resources were spent on one action. While the imperium is conquering their worlds, and blasting apart the Empire's fleets. They would have no fleets to get there. At best the Empire would slow the imperium by destroying the Imperium's heart, but once the imperium gets their hands on a hyper drive, that will be mass produced to the point of hilarity. Which would be very common if every single Starwars ship has one.

It would take the admech less than a year to figure it out, by the time the Empire had that super weapon of a meteor done, the Imperial navy would have as a bystead on their new advanced ships hyperdrives and ships that would decimate the Star Wars Universe.

Its not assumption on my part, but known fact from every single battle the Imperium gains technological achievement and reverse engineering that equals that of star trek.

 Asherian Command wrote:
All this science is thrown out the window once a pysker gets involved, if say the emperor just blinked and it phased from existence. Then the problem would be gone. It has happened many times where all of a sudden something happened protecting sol/terra.

You should have opened with this argument. It would have saved everyone a lot of time.

 Asherian Command wrote:
As the Empire has NEVER EVER. Done this in any of its material or even thought of this. Then no I don't think it is reasonable to conclude. That the empire. The idiots who lost to a bunch of Ewoks and Rebellious teenagers would win again one of the most compentent military minded empire in the entirety of science fiction. (Baring that of a few other science fiction organizations)The idea they would have to specifically tailor a hyper drive, a lugging vechile, and also calculating the distance and power required to do so.

Considering the Death Star is Moon Sized and is equipped with a hyperdrive, I don't think it is the stretch that you suggest it to be, since you don't need to build the structure of the moon. Still... Your argument is irrefutable... since it's never been done before in Star Wars... it can clearly NEVER be done ever. Because, Ewoks and all that.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Hyperspace was an alternate dimension that could only be reached by traveling at lightspeed or faster.[1] By entering hyperspace, a starship could take advantage of the wrinkles in the fabric of realspace to reduce journey time significantly, "jumping" from a specific point to another point without having to travel directly between them.[2] However, large objects in realspace cast "mass shadows" in hyperspace, so hyperspace jumps necessitated very precise calculations.[1] Without those, a vessel could fly right through a star or another celestial body.[2] Because of the danger, there existed predetermined hyperspace routes which interstellar travellers could take. Sometimes, the discovery of new safe hyperspace routes could play a pivotal role in a war, as it would allow naval forces to move faster unbeknownst to their adversaries.[3] A vessel's ability to travel through hyperspace depended on its being equipped with a hyperdrive engine.[4] Quick jumps into hyperspace could be unsettling to even experienced pilots, but those with the proper stamina and training could overcome this.[5] The Galactic Empire employed Interdictor cruisers to disable hyperspace capabilities in other vessels, both to pull them from hyperspace and to prevent them from making the jump to it.[6]

It was technically possible for a vessel, such as a shuttle, to disembark from another vessel while in hyperspace, but the procedure carried extreme risk. Such a move would tear the disembarking vessel violently out of hyperspace.[7]

Hyperspace travel was mastered as early as four millennia before the First Order–Resistance conflict, as demonstrated by the existence of hyperspace sextants from that era.[8] At the time of the First Order–Resistance conflict, the First Order discovered sub-hyperspace, which they utilized by their superweapon, the Starkiller Base.[9]

You are correct that multiple jumps would be necessary. However, considering that most of the galaxy is empty space, this is more an issue once you get towards Sol. However, this is also an overestimated problem as planets have this thing called an orbit, and aren't going to be lined up in blocking formation from all directions. When the Imperials arrived in Hoth, they arrived very close to the planet to "surprise" them. The fact that their ships didn't all die from proximity to other planets in the system suggests that while proximity is an issue, flying through them is the bigger problem.

 Asherian Command wrote:
A substintially sized object would cast a shadow within hyper space, that and the calculations have to have according to my calculations a .0001% calculation against error.

You should have opened with this argument as well... anyone who can calculate hyperspace jump coordinates and margin of error can't be argued with... considering its a non-existent technology. Hats off to you sir. I stand corrected.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Few months? Try a couple decades at best.

Again, I doff my hat to your unshakable argument. Its clearly impossible to map space rapidly with hyperdrive equipped droid ships. This has never been done in Star Wars, so clearly, it can never be done - ever... even though it is a combination of existing technologies. Clearly.

 Asherian Command wrote:
You are being holly optimistic if you believe they could pull it off without the Imperium knowing something is up. This isn't star trek or stargate where there are characters so damn near perfect or intelligent that they could calculate basically anything, taking them twenty minutes to fix some of hte most complicated objects known to man.

I think you missed the part where I stated that this would occur while the Imperium is smashing the living feth out of the Empire. Hence the need for out of the box thinking, and speed. But hey... I'm not the guy who can calculate hyperdrive margin of error.

 Asherian Command wrote:
It would take alot more resources than that. Even if the Imperials could pull this off, which is astronomically low. Then what then? all their resources were spent on one action. While the imperium is conquering their worlds, and blasting apart the Empire's fleets. They would have no fleets to get there. At best the Empire would slow the imperium by destroying the Imperium's heart, but once the imperium gets their hands on a hyper drive, that will be mass produced to the point of hilarity. Which would be very common if every single Starwars ship has one. It would take the admech less than a year to figure it out, by the time the Empire had that super weapon of a meteor done, the Imperial navy would have as a bystead on their new advanced ships hyperdrives and ships that would decimate the Star Wars Universe. Its not assumption on my part, but known fact from every single battle the Imperium gains technological achievement and reverse engineering that equals that of star trek.

Man. I have to give it to you. This is such a strong argument I can't even begin to fathom my response... I had never even CONSIDERED that the Admech would speedily reverse engineer all the Star Wars tech... I had assumed that because they were so super powerful that after each engagement they'd only have dust from Imperial ships to research. I forgot about their amazing reverse engineering pedigree too... They certainly have come up with a lot of awesome stuff in the last 1000 years of conflict, like holofield equipped, brightlance wieleding space marines with living metal armor, and molecule flaying bolter rounds, operating from vast fleets of reverse engineered blackstone fortresses, striking their foes at will from the Webway. The Empire doesn't stand a chance.

Thanks again for enlightening. Next time though, just open with the Emperor is Magic argument so we can get to this outcome right away.

Let's assume that hyperspace exists in the 40k universe.

However, it will not be mapped out. It took the Star Wars universe thousands and thousands of years to map out hyperspace, and billions of lost lives in the process. Making an unguided hyperspace jump is almost as dangerous as a warp jump. The Empire would be slow and flailing about blindly in the Milky Way, losing lots of ships due to jumping poorly, like into a star or an asteroid field.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Let's assume that hyperspace exists in the 40k universe.

However, it will not be mapped out. It took the Star Wars universe thousands and thousands of years to map out hyperspace, and billions of lost lives in the process.

Is there a reference for this? I only find references that it is difficult and dangerous... but no references as to how time consuming.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic_Republic/Legends

The Old Republic was actively encouraging the mapping of hyperspace, yet it still took them tens of thousands of years to get to the present state of galaxy mapping. And while there were wars interspersed which might have slowed progress, there were also much larger periods of peace which would have allowed for exploration.

The Republic essentially expanded at the rate of exploration more or less.

The Estimation of: .0001% for margin of error would be needed to calculate the exact distance, while also incoporating, speed, velocity, density of object (for how much yield damage it could do), how much resources have to be spent getting it there, and also managing all those resources to even get there and ensure that your ships have enough fuel to pull or lunge that meteoroid.

Now why did I get the number of .0001 is because I divide by 10 for every single occurence you would have to account for (Rough estimation at best.) I do not know how fast a Hyper drive can go, but it is faster than light, so I estimated it to be around... oh well.. 6.706 * 10 ^ 12 the speed of light being around 6.706e+8 (two tenths faster. Which is quite a bit) Then calculating the length and size for an Asteriod or moon to destroy all life and the entire planet is around 100 Miles. From this we can determine whether or not the distance required is greater or less than the speed that hyperspace can go. (Depending we are talking about a planetiod the size of earth)

So lets see:

Alpha Centauri is around 4.24211 10^16 light years away. is it greater or less than 10^9 power? It is greater. So lets calculate how many light years it would take to get there with a hyper drive..... 4.24211*10^16 / 6.706*10^12 (Still in light speed converted so that it is faster)= 6324.336415 Wait what???? This means that even with that it would take 6324.336415 Light years to get there. So in essence it would take. So from this speed we can deduce because it take that long to get there. Easily enough we just divide 6324.336415 by 6.706* 10^12 which is 9.43 * 10 ^ -10 which in seconds is.... 3.395 * 10 ^-6 or to nano seconds which is.... 3395 nanoseconds. So Taking this into account the margin of error would be pretty wide and would need to be almost perfect. As 3395 Nanoseconds means that from alpha centauri it would be like shooting a giant cannon and trying to hit a tiny little red dot on a leaf with a cannon ball. Except your blindfolded.

A simple miscalculation of a hyperdrive jump could make them end up missing the entirety of terra. I highly doubt the empire would devote all of their top scientists, and all their major minds into one hollistic impossible scenario.

Now if it was the Starkiller base that would be a completely different matter. No doubt terra would be phased out of existence by the star killer base along with all the imperial core worlds.

But we have no idea of its range or how long it took to build, and is probably less resource expensive compared to hurling a meteriod through space.

 keezus wrote:

 Grey Templar wrote:
If turning moons into ships was practical, both the Imperium and Empire would have done so a long time ago.

The Empire doesn't do it because its not reusable and a non-reusable planet buster isn't much of a terror weapon. The Imperium doesn't do it because destroying entire planets with a one-use weapon isn't an efficient use of their resources. In this case, if either side wanted to destroy a single planet with a non-interceptable relativistic munition, I can think of little else that would create that level of destruction for as little cost (time and money).

 Grey Templar wrote:
Using asteroids as guided bombs is actually woefully inefficient.

How is it inefficient? It only needs to destroy one thing. Who cares if it is not reusable.

 Grey Templar wrote:
And if you have the technology to do this reliably than you also probably have technology letting you build weapons which are just as good as an asteroid impact, but reusable and much less clunky to use.

Seriously? It's not like such a superweapon would be inaccurate either... All it needs is propulsion and astrogation.

At the highest levels, calcs place exterminatus weapons at the low 100's petaton yield. You need to bring said weapon into the star system past the enemy's defenses to bring them to bear. A normal asteroid strike is 0.1 petatons. A moon travelling at lightspeed has 6.6e39J energy. That's 1.5e15 petatons.

Also, let me know why it needs to be reusable when a single use weapon is sufficient to shatter the Imperium as a cohesive fighting force. The Empire would be outgunned at the start of such a fictional conflict, so time is of the essence. A hyperdrive equipped moon uses existing technology. Moving such a large object with hyperdrive is also not unprecedented. Is there some other less clunky but equally effective weapon that you suggest might be quickly developed from off the shelf parts, speedily built for immediate deployment (i.e. as soon as a hyperspace route to Terra is mapped)? If they are "fighting" (i.e. LOSING against) the Imperium, the Empire doesn't have 30 years to build Starkiller Base.

A moon traveling at lightspeed has no mass.

And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

 Wyzilla wrote:
A moon traveling at lightspeed [i]has no mass.

I believe you may be incorrect about this. Can you help me with a citation?

 Wyzilla wrote:
And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

Uh ok. I'm no more at the helm of the Empire than you are Ursarkar Creed, the High Lords of Terra or the God Emperor of Mankind. I'm merely stating a possibility based on megastructures already constructed in canon, using the framework of technology already demonstrated in the canon. Has the Empire built a moon sized thing? YES. Does it move? YES. Is it Hyperdrive equipped? YES. Can the Empire search the galaxy using probe droids? YES. Granted, Grey Templar has brought up an issue regarding scouting the hyperspace lane - but, theoretically, should a lane be found, I don't see any reason why this plan can't be carried out. You say that my proposed solution is not within their character to do so - Strange things happen when your EXISTENCE is threatened. Starving people don't eat their dead compatriots because they it is within their character to do so, it is out of necessity. You suggest that if something has not been done before, it will never occur in the future. Respectfully, that's hardly an argument.

At least Grey Templar is coming back with actual logistical problems with my idea (backed with citation I might add!). I concede that hyperspace mapping IS a problem - possibly solvable by means not shown in canon, but much more likely not solvable with technology currently shown in the Star Wars canon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Now if it was the Starkiller base that would be a completely different matter. No doubt terra would be phased out of existence by the star killer base along with all the imperial core worlds.

Starkiller Base was constructed sometime in the 30 odd years between ROTJ and TFA - which suggests construction time <30 years. In the other IoM vs Star Wars thread, it was noted: the base was hidden in the unknown regions on the edge of the Star Wars galaxy, and fired at a star system in the core worlds, so it has range of at least half a galactic diameter.

@Grey Templar: Since Starkiller Base was outside of the normal hyperspace routes... and the Rebellion managed to hyperspace their arses out there in under a day... could this be considered evidence that hyperspace navigation into uncharted zones is much improved from the time of the old republic? I would posit that the Star Wars canon is a mess - the heroes having too much plot armor (hyperspace hax, force powers etc), and the Empire will always have that weakness against Ewoks. If the New Republic would have just placed Ewoks everywhere, the New Order would never have managed to become a thing.

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
A moon traveling at lightspeed [i]has no mass.

I believe you may be incorrect about this. Can you help me with a citation?

Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

 Wyzilla wrote:
And you still haven't posted any relevant data proving that the Empire is capable, that they have demonstrated the ability to use this tactic, and if it is even within their character to do so. You are not at the helm of the Galactic Empire- Palpatine is.

Uh ok. I'm no more at the helm of the Empire than you are Ursarkar Creed, the High Lords of Terra or the God Emperor of Mankind. I'm merely stating a possibility based on megastructures already constructed in canon, using the framework of technology already demonstrated in the canon. Has the Empire built a moon sized thing? YES. Does it move? YES. Is it Hyperdrive equipped? YES. Can the Empire search the galaxy using probe droids? YES. Granted, Grey Templar has brought up an issue regarding scouting the hyperspace lane - but, theoretically, should a lane be found, I don't see any reason why this plan can't be carried out. You say that my proposed solution is not within their character to do so - Strange things happen when your EXISTENCE is threatened. Starving people don't eat their dead compatriots because they it is within their character to do so, it is out of necessity. You suggest that if something has not been done before, it will never occur in the future. Respectfully, that's hardly an argument.

The one thing that keeps echoing in my mind with every post i read in this thread is Why?

Why would the two be fighting? What benefit would be gained. With everything in the Warhammer galaxy, that is a door best left welded and painted shut buy the SW Empire. The only scenario that makes any sense would be the Imperium fleeing into the SW galaxy to escape their own. Any other scenario, the costs and problems presents make a war unfeasible to sustain for any length of time, and would outweigh any benefit categorically. I think this is a valid question, because the goals of each faction would dictate is target, which would predict success. Neither could effectively conquer the other, the SW empire is just too small, force wise, to contend with the IOM, and the IOM lacks the ability, need, or forces to execute a sustained conflict on an extra galactic level, while maintaining the stated peace in their own galaxy. Even fanatical Imperial creed nonsense doesn't stand up to this, because the other galaxy is outside of the light of the Astronomicon. Warp travel wouldn't be possible outside of the IOM galaxy, and the emperor's presence couldn't be felt there. the SW empire would take one look at the 40k milky way and take a hard pass.

 GKTiberius wrote:
The one thing that keeps echoing in my mind with every post i read in this thread is Why?

Why would the two be fighting? What benefit would be gained. With everything in the Warhammer galaxy, that is a door best left welded and painted shut buy the SW Empire. The only scenario that makes any sense would be the Imperium fleeing into the SW galaxy to escape their own. Any other scenario, the costs and problems presents make a war unfeasible to sustain for any length of time, and would outweigh any benefit categorically. I think this is a valid question, because the goals of each faction would dictate is target, which would predict success. Neither could effectively conquer the other, the SW empire is just too small, force wise, to contend with the IOM, and the IOM lacks the ability, need, or forces to execute a sustained conflict on an extra galactic level, while maintaining the stated peace in their own galaxy. Even fanatical Imperial creed nonsense doesn't stand up to this, because the other galaxy is outside of the light of the Astronomicon. Warp travel wouldn't be possible outside of the IOM galaxy, and the emperor's presence couldn't be felt there. the SW empire would take one look at the 40k milky way and take a hard pass.

Sensibility and Reason what are you doing here?

It is something that often comes up as an argument down through for any of these discussions. I mean I myself believe that as well. Its why when I made a thread of a similar nature I gave a contextual narrative layer to it so that it was more of a freak accident more than anything. Such as a grand exploration fleet with an entire segemuntum set out and arrived in the star wars universe and had been there for a while before engaging the star wars universe races.

So the Imperium's remnants want to conquer the stars in this scenario. Where a small contigent of the Imperium arrived with massive support and supply lines to worlds they had captured years prior and only began to move when they knew the time was right to do so.


But eh I can dream all I want of nurgle storm troopers facing jedi with an exterminatus going on.

I am a writer though so I could make it happen with my own personal fan history of how the Imperium came into the star wars universe and became a bunch of badasses. I mean Not all fan history is terrible.


But anyway. Debates like this are so common it is quite laughable. The most famous being one of my own. WHich was Spartans vs Space Marines.

It usually ends with a "NO MINES BETTER!" "NUUH MINE IS!"

1. Please, just chill out. We're talking about Star Wars and a tabletop war game, no need for "Your argument is worthless," or anything of the sort.

2. Not saying it's enough to go toe-to-toe with the Imperium, but I know for fact the Empire has done plenty of effective, nasty things, but not in films/when the plot-armored main characters are about. I've hardly dipped my toes into the EU, so I'm not the expert to interrogate for sources, but they're out there.

3. Star Wars (hell, even 40k and other fantasy/sci-fi universes) has very sketchy science. I don't think we actually know scat about realistic FTL travel. It's hard to argue the physics when the universes throw it out for us

4. Doesn't matter who's better. By meshing the two galaxies, we have accidentally created the most powerful monstrosities to prowl any galaxy: the Ewok Genestealer cult. All shall fall before them.

Storm Troopers are like imperial guardsmens with less ballistics skills but with essentially super high powered laser rifles that are like s6 ap3 and still shoot 36".

That alone will dump on Astra Militarum.

They also have droid soldiers with mass production clones.

 Filch wrote:
Storm Troopers are like imperial guardsmens with less ballistics skills but with essentially super high powered laser rifles that are like s6 ap3 and still shoot 36".

That alone will dump on Astra Militarum.

They also have droid soldiers with mass production clones.

Source other than your own beliefs?

Not to be a stickler, but.... Read other threads about them, and actually give us identifable information that doesn't look like you pulled it out of nowhere.

3. Star Wars (hell, even 40k and other fantasy/sci-fi universes) has very sketchy science. I don't think we actually know scat about realistic FTL travel. It's hard to argue the physics when the universes throw it out for us

We kind of do. We know mileage and physics which could translate, but again we are translating real facts to a hobbyist game and a good movie series.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading your original comment, it sounds like you were suggesting that something travelling at lightspeed becomes "zero mass". I was sure this is wrong. I have to thank you for clearing things up. I was lso unaware that the laws of physics were going to trump feats demonstrated in canon. Good to know. Well... that changes everything, since the Empire could conceivably fight the Imperium on an even level ship to ship if that's the case. This changes everything.

 Wyzilla wrote:
What about "if they had the intelligence or ability to use it, they would use it" that you do not understand? Being possible means nothing. What matters is feats and actual demonstrated willingness to weaponize an asteroid. It doesn't matter if the Empire even does posses the ability to weaponize a moon or asteroid in such a manner unless they have already DONE SO. This is a fight between FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, and thus these CHARACTERS must remain IN-CHARACTER. You're no more arguing that Batman would totally use his l33t skills and technology to snipe a guy from two kilometers away with a railgun. He wouldn't do that, and he would never do that because it completely breaks his character rule of not taking lives. Likewise the Galactic Empire has never shown itself to be so competent as to weaponize asteroids or moons- it would have invalidated the need of the Death Star and allowed them to destroy the Rebellion overnight. Considering they did not simply wipe all Rebel sympathizer worlds out, they quite clearly are either too stupid (not that surprising considering tactical blunders and ridiculous idiocy is a trait among Star Wars villains) or simply unwilling to go down that route.

Ah... in character! This is like how Superman doesn't kill people... until he does right?

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

That's great professor. There seems to be a deceleration portion since every time they do it, the streaks which are the stars turn back into stars AFTER they exit... suggesting that the slowdown is an applied effect and not an effect of exiting hyperspace... It's all moot though, since the laws of physics dictate, so hyperspace isn't even a thing, since they can't get the ships moving that fast.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your argument is worthless to begin with because it breaks the character of the Empire. You are coming up with an idea as if YOU were at the helm of the Empire again- you are instilling competency they lack. It only matters if the characters themselves have actually demonstrated the even the idea to do so. Not to mention that it also breaks the universe, because were you to weaponize asteroids in Star Wars, you could have won the Clone Wars overnight. It is quite easy to see this is not a valid tactic because were it possible in Star Wars, everybody is a drooling mental incompetent too stupid to see a method of war that would have won them every conflict overnight. It breaks the characters of Star Wars, and it breaks the entire setting. "They can do this!!!" means nothing, what matter is what they have actually done in the canon.

Woah... calm your tits. And here I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Well... that settles it then... if each side is constrained entirely by their previous actions, there can be no winner in this contest. The Imperium can't even beat the Tau. They'll invade a few Imperial worlds and then bugger off to do something more important.

I await your next enlightening response.

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

That's great professor. There seems to be a deceleration portion since every time they do it, the streaks which are the stars turn back into stars AFTER they exit... suggesting that the slowdown is an applied effect and not an effect of exiting hyperspace... It's all moot though, since the laws of physics dictate, so hyperspace isn't even a thing, since they can't get the ships moving that fast.

That is wrong. The streaks don't turn back into stars at all. Instead you see normal stars as soon as they exit hyperspace. It is a sudden flash, not a 'turning into'.
Also, when they exit hyperspace, they are still going very fast, but nowhere near lightspeed. You also do not see them take any kind of action at all, suggesting that the slowdown after leaving hyperspace is an automatic process.
(Jump to 0:55)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 keezus wrote:

Woah... calm your tits. And here I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Well... that settles it then... if each side is constrained entirely by their previous actions, there can be no winner in this contest. The Imperium can't even beat the Tau. They'll invade a few Imperial worlds and then bugger off to do something more important.

Actually, that is by far the most likely thing the Imperium would do. The Imperium would have much better things to do than invading and destroying the Empire. Like making sure not to get eaten by Tyranids, consumed by Chaos or purged by Necrons for example.
Likewise, the Empire is quite busy horribly losing a war to a group of rebel scum.
Both probably would not even have the resources to destroy each other.


One final thing about the asteroid though. Something like that has never been done in Star Wars, so we can't really know if that is even technologically possible for the Empire. Also, it'd make a lot of sense that the Imperium had some defense against such attacks, since ramming asteroids into planets is one of the favourite tactics of the Orks; doubtlessly the Imperium has prepared for the chance that an ambitious Ork Warboss should ever decide to make the jump to Terra.

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading your original comment, it sounds like you were suggesting that something travelling at lightspeed becomes "zero mass". I was sure this is wrong. I have to thank you for clearing things up. I was lso unaware that the laws of physics were going to trump feats demonstrated in canon. Good to know. Well... that changes everything, since the Empire could conceivably fight the Imperium on an even level ship to ship if that's the case. This changes everything.
Citations please.

 Wyzilla wrote:
What about "if they had the intelligence or ability to use it, they would use it" that you do not understand? Being possible means nothing. What matters is feats and actual demonstrated willingness to weaponize an asteroid. It doesn't matter if the Empire even does posses the ability to weaponize a moon or asteroid in such a manner unless they have already DONE SO. This is a fight between FICTIONAL CHARACTERS, and thus these CHARACTERS must remain IN-CHARACTER. You're no more arguing that Batman would totally use his l33t skills and technology to snipe a guy from two kilometers away with a railgun. He wouldn't do that, and he would never do that because it completely breaks his character rule of not taking lives. Likewise the Galactic Empire has never shown itself to be so competent as to weaponize asteroids or moons- it would have invalidated the need of the Death Star and allowed them to destroy the Rebellion overnight. Considering they did not simply wipe all Rebel sympathizer worlds out, they quite clearly are either too stupid (not that surprising considering tactical blunders and ridiculous idiocy is a trait among Star Wars villains) or simply unwilling to go down that route.

Ah... in character! This is like how Superman doesn't kill people... until he does right?

 Wyzilla wrote:
You also don't understand hyperspace, because striking an object while in hyperspace does nothing, and will instead have you torn apart by a gravity well. Momentum is also not preserved when existing hyperspace, which is an alternate dimension.

That's great professor. There seems to be a deceleration portion since every time they do it, the streaks which are the stars turn back into stars AFTER they exit... suggesting that the slowdown is an applied effect and not an effect of exiting hyperspace... It's all moot though, since the laws of physics dictate, so hyperspace isn't even a thing, since they can't get the ships moving that fast.

 Wyzilla wrote:
Your argument is worthless to begin with because it breaks the character of the Empire. You are coming up with an idea as if YOU were at the helm of the Empire again- you are instilling competency they lack. It only matters if the characters themselves have actually demonstrated the even the idea to do so. Not to mention that it also breaks the universe, because were you to weaponize asteroids in Star Wars, you could have won the Clone Wars overnight. It is quite easy to see this is not a valid tactic because were it possible in Star Wars, everybody is a drooling mental incompetent too stupid to see a method of war that would have won them every conflict overnight. It breaks the characters of Star Wars, and it breaks the entire setting. "They can do this!!!" means nothing, what matter is what they have actually done in the canon.

Woah... calm your tits. And here I thought we were having a civilized conversation. Well... that settles it then... if each side is constrained entirely by their previous actions, there can be no winner in this contest. The Imperium can't even beat the Tau. They'll invade a few Imperial worlds and then bugger off to do something more important.

I await your next enlightening response.

Dripping with condescension, and even half justified in being so. Seriously, though, any citations? Mayhap they mentioned the Millenium Falcon entering a deceleration phase in one of the books? Perhaps they mention a Star Destroyer making a Jump into another dimension?

something I was wondering about this, especially now that it has decended into the minute details:

With Disney wiping the slate clean, how much of the old EU is being used in this argument? Without it we have to go on the Movies/Clone Wars/Rebels, none of which paint a very cheery picture of the Empire's competence (my finest legion of stormtroopers my arse).

Mudrat wrote:
something I was wondering about this, especially now that it has decended into the minute details:

With Disney wiping the slate clean, how much of the old EU is being used in this argument? Without it we have to go on the Movies/Clone Wars/Rebels, none of which paint a very cheery picture of the Empire's competence (my finest legion of stormtroopers my arse).

If we weren't, then it would make it so that the Tau could defeat the entire Star Wars Universe without any of their auxiliaries' support, so it really wouldn't make sense not to.

@Murdat: I'm using none. Its very restrictive.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iron_Captain wrote:

Also, when they exit hyperspace, they are still going very fast, but nowhere near lightspeed. You also do not see them take any kind of action at all, suggesting that the slowdown after leaving hyperspace is an automatic process.
(Jump to 0:55)

Spoiler:

I can dig that... I was using the scene from a New Hope and it looked like the exit speed is determined by pilot control:

As I recall, a ship exiting Hyperspace actually does have momentum. Specifically the same it had when it entered hyperspace. So a stationary object entering hyperspace will be stationary when it leaves.

However, it would be incredibly stupid to leave hyperspace with any motion as you still can't be sure that the area directly in front of you will be clear of debris. You don't want to come out of hyperspace and run into another object you can't avoid in time, thus I believe most of the time you will enter and exit hyperspace relatively stationary, though you could change that if needed(that would involve overriding the safety protocols on the hyperdrive though, as I recall they deliberately protect against doing that as a standard procedure).

This doesn't solve the Empire acting out of character by strapping a massive hyperdrive to a planet or moon sized object in the first place, or knowing where to send it.

Terra is also protected by a massive battlefleet, because its Terra. They'd definitely have planet killing weaponry available. They also have faced Death Star-esk weaponry before, like the Necron World Engine(which was basically a Death Star). As Necrons are also the only notable threat to actually invade the Sol system since the Heresy their potential threats would also likely be in the system and have countermeasures implemented.

 dusara217 wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading your original comment, it sounds like you were suggesting that something travelling at lightspeed becomes "zero mass". I was sure this is wrong. I have to thank you for clearing things up. I was also unaware that the laws of physics were going to trump feats demonstrated in canon. Good to know. Well... that changes everything, since the Empire could conceivably fight the Imperium on an even level ship to ship if that's the case. This changes everything.
Citations please.

In an effort to save everyone some time - Lets say the IoM ship's defense is predicated on the kind of offense it's likely to encounter. If the defense is proportionally too weak to the expected attack, there would be no point in defense. If it is too strong, its own weapons are worthless (as its enemies have weapons of the same class!). So you have the situation where the feats and descriptions suggest that a regular ship's guns are exterminatus level. That suggests that shielding needs to be on par, otherwise, you'd die in the first exchange with ships of similar class. But then you have things like Ork Roks and Tyranid ships (the latter of which often use teeth or claws on enemy ships). None of these would survive an exterminatus effect, and not only that, they are supposedly legitimate threats! So basically, you end up having to adjust all the calcs downwards. When they say gun batteries fire at an appreciable fraction of light speed... you revise downwards. This is usually a problem reconciling all the different described effects, but if descriptive feats don't matter, just calcs, one can recalibrate against something in that universe of less uncertain durability.

Imperial ship firepower is pretty much universally calculated from the Empire Strikes Back asteroid scene. To put everything in perspective, since the IoM considers a hollow asteroid a threat (and you can calculate asteroid cratering energy), and requires capital weaponry that doesn't instantly defeat it to combat it, I'd say the sides are pretty even on firepower.

Tyranid ships have roughly equivalent defenses to a mechanical ship 40k. They have shields and ranged weaponry of similar damage output, though they are noted as being slightly less ranged and powerful, but not significantly so.

Orks also do put shields on their Roks.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Tyranid ships have roughly equivalent defenses to a mechanical ship 40k. They have shields and ranged weaponry of similar damage output, though they are noted as being slightly less ranged and powerful, but not significantly so.

Orks also do put shields on their Roks.

This is always the argument. Ok. So how powerful do you think the shields are? The answer is always AS POWERFUL AS THE ORKS WANT THEM TO BE. Do the Orks ALWAYS put shields on their Roks? The wiki entry doesn't mention shields at all, so it might be possible that some roks could be unshielded?

Are you suggesting that Tyranid ships are able to fire bio constructs that inflict 100x gigatons damage per shot? What about the ones that just claw at their enemies?

In defense of the "you are decelerating long before you leave hyperspace" argument, if you think back to--

WARNING: POTENTIAL SPOILERS (You can never be too careful )


So yeah, ships decelerate before they leave hyperspace, in order for anything to be remotely sensible.

 keezus wrote:

 dusara217 wrote:

 keezus wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:
Citation on what, how physics works? E=mc2. Mass increases infinitely when you reach lightspeed- thereby demanding infinite force to accelerate. You can't send a moon at lightspeed without completely eliminating its mass and thereby making it mass-less and allowing it to reach C.

Thanks for clearing that up. Reading your original comment, it sounds like you were suggesting that something travelling at lightspeed becomes "zero mass". I was sure this is wrong. I have to thank you for clearing things up. I was also unaware that the laws of physics were going to trump feats demonstrated in canon. Good to know. Well... that changes everything, since the Empire could conceivably fight the Imperium on an even level ship to ship if that's the case. This changes everything.
Citations please.

In an effort to save everyone some time - Lets say the IoM ship's defense is predicated on the kind of offense it's likely to encounter. If the defense is proportionally too weak to the expected attack, there would be no point in defense. If it is too strong, its own weapons are worthless (as its enemies have weapons of the same class!). So you have the situation where the feats and descriptions suggest that a regular ship's guns are exterminatus level. That suggests that shielding needs to be on par, otherwise, you'd die in the first exchange with ships of similar class. But then you have things like Ork Roks and Tyranid ships (the latter of which often use teeth or claws on enemy ships). None of these would survive an exterminatus effect, and not only that, they are supposedly legitimate threats! So basically, you end up having to adjust all the calcs downwards. When they say gun batteries fire at an appreciable fraction of light speed... you revise downwards. This is usually a problem reconciling all the different described effects, but if descriptive feats don't matter, just calcs, one can recalibrate against something in that universe of less uncertain durability.

Imperial ship firepower is pretty much universally calculated from the Empire Strikes Back asteroid scene. To put everything in perspective, since the IoM considers a hollow asteroid a threat (and you can calculate asteroid cratering energy), and requires capital weaponry that doesn't instantly defeat it to combat it, I'd say the sides are pretty even on firepower.

Orks loot the technology of their foes, and those ships that are purely of Ork designed do, in fact, have shielding (consult Battlefleet Gothic for reference), Tyranids have powerful shielding, as well. Standard weaponry has never stated to be exterminatus-level weaponry, there are weapons specifically designated as exterminatus weapons, the fact that Lance batteries and Nova Cannons can crack open a planet after a few months of shelling doesn't really say much, all things considered. Even with an entire battlefleet's combined wrath (Sanguinius's entire Blood Angels fleet), it took several minutes to break open the planet, and that's with thousands upon thousands of ships all firing upon said planet.

Asherian Command <--this guy, exalted.

Honestly I think we should leave the weaponised astreoids theme behind. The IoM has already considered such tactics and found them innefficient (ref: rocks are not free citizen) since prolonged bombardment could achieve the same results with far less resources poured into it. The Empire has most likely come to the same conclussion for similiar or diffrent reasons, though I have no citation or reference to support this with.

For the sake of argument I'd like put forward some hastily collected thoughts.

IoM runs on two sets of physics laws, with a thrid seldom mentioned one thrown in there. First is our plane (E=mc2), then there's the warp and then it's C'tan plane (for lak of a better name since it's so unexplored). Mankind first made official contact with the warp sometime during the golden age of mankind and since then it has been incorporated into their technology. Void Shields, for instances, is not a energy based shield but a gateway that transfer incomming fire to the warp and drops it there (hence "void". Other examples are the Psy-foci and the Vortex grenades. Why bring this up?

The Warp serves roughly the same purpouse as the Force in star wars. In fact the Empyrian (old, non messed up warp) sounds very much like the same thing. An omnipresent force that surrounds all living beings and "Controls your actions yet also obeys your commands". In the star wars universe those sensitive to the force are often destined to great things, whenever they train to become Jedi or not. They are often able to sence disaster and pain like the destruction of a planet for instance. Dark side users have similar abilities but seems to care less about suffering, but for our purpouses they're roughly the same.

Now if a war between the two factions broke out and the IoM use warp based technology and weapons don't you think that this would be pretty much a weaponised Force? Hence it stands to reason that this should have a profound inpact on the Jedi and sith. More so however is the effect the Emperor and the astronomican would have on the sensetive ones. Lets put aside the psychological effects and just assume that the Jedi and Sith would all notice the huge "light" all the IoM operates under. Do you not think it would stand to reason that they'd desperatly want to find out what it is and probably put all of their efforts into NOT going to war with the huge force of light? If they would not and did decide that the Imperium is wrong and needs to be fought then do you belive their high Tech weaponry or Shields would be prepared to deal with warp based weaponry/Shields? Barring the fact that their religion gets r@#£ by the invaders they will have no frame of reference on how to deal with it. The IoM on the other hand has great ammounts of experience dealing with sci-fi tech Shields and weaponry. On a complete side note they ate far more adapt at teleportation technology.

Now all this is only works assuming the Imperiums warp tech would still work in the Star wars galaxy but for the sake of the argument lets say it doesen't. The Imperium would invade and get horribly murdered due to having to re-work their travel and shield techonology as well as several important weapons. If the Empire where to invade the Imperium much of their ruling caste of force sensetives would quickly be rendered all but useless. Once Vortex weaponry gets employed and they "feel" the deamons presence I highly doubt they'll be very keen on using any of their Force abilities.

Now let's say the Empire under Sith leadership invades the IoM, sooner or later you'll have demonic possesion settling in. This would without a doubt throw the Empire into dissarray (much like it did the IoM during the age of strife) and they would either be forced to go to war without the aid of force users or call of their engagements. It's of course possible that the warp would help the invaders to destroy the IoM but this would undoubtebly spell disaster for the Empire in the long run.

The point I'm trying to make is that the setting itself becomes a great enemy for both factions. It's like a land based army trying to make war on the sea and on the Empire side of things you also have the the threat of previously unidentified huge sharks. That's not taking into account the possibility of a few other of the 40k factions catching wind of the Empire. Just imagine their ships catching a few ork spores drifting around in space