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Hi, I'm sure there is a clear answer to this in the BRB but for the life of me I can't find it. Can the Coldstar (or by extension some other flying critter that is a character) join units (such as a bunch of Crisis Bodyguards) if he is in Gliding mode?

Thanks guys.

There's nothing that says you can't, but the mechanics of coherency get really, really interesting. Also you don't benefit from Hard to Hit, so that's a downer.

Ah OK, thanks. I was thinking of putting him in there and having him take to the air on an opportunity basis.

There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Depends on whether you consider the wording "... If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding..." as applying to a unit of Drones or only those that the Commander has via his unit options.

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Depends on whether you consider the wording "... If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding..." as applying to a unit of Drones or only those that the Commander has via his unit options.

Like I said, it's an odd interaction as IC rules do make the Drones he could join part of his unit for all rules purposes.

SJ

Does he changes its type to FMC?
Have you seen any fmc in unit?

 Mr.T wrote:
Does he changes its type to FMC?
Have you seen any fmc in unit?

No and yes

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Depends on whether you consider the wording "... If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding..." as applying to a unit of Drones or only those that the Commander has via his unit options.

Like I said, it's an odd interaction as IC rules do make the Drones he could join part of his unit for all rules purposes.

SJ

That's your interpretation. Its not mine (and most likely many others as well) since a unit he joins is not 'his' (he counts as a part of their unit, they don't count as a part of his).

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Depends on whether you consider the wording "... If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding..." as applying to a unit of Drones or only those that the Commander has via his unit options.

Like I said, it's an odd interaction as IC rules do make the Drones he could join part of his unit for all rules purposes.

SJ

That's your interpretation. Its not mine (and most likely many others as well) since a unit he joins is not 'his' (he counts as a part of their unit, they don't count as a part of his).

That would be your opinion, sure. Not sure why "an odd interaction" seems to get such negative feed back.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 Ghaz wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Depends on whether you consider the wording "... If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding..." as applying to a unit of Drones or only those that the Commander has via his unit options.

Like I said, it's an odd interaction as IC rules do make the Drones he could join part of his unit for all rules purposes.

SJ

That's your interpretation. Its not mine (and most likely many others as well) since a unit he joins is not 'his' (he counts as a part of their unit, they don't count as a part of his).

That would be your opinion, sure. Not sure why "an odd interaction" seems to get such negative feed back.

SJ

What negative feedback did he give?

Fairly obvious the Commander's Drones are the ones purchased with his options list. Nothing else can qualify for him to have. Unless you can provide a rules point that would make another unit "his"?

From a Tactics perspective it would be stupid and leaving yourself open to being Out of Coherency when switching from Swooping to Gliding.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

There are 2 slight issues with the post. Firstly he doesn't drag the drone squadron with him. They are not his drones.

Secondly you can't make a Coldstar Buffmander as he can't take signature systems...

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

There are 2 slight issues with the post. Firstly he doesn't drag the drone squadron with him. They are not his drones.

Secondly you can't make a Coldstar Buffmander as he can't take signature systems...

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Hence the "odd interaction".

As to the second part, buffmamber as probably the wrong term to use, as todays interwebz doesn't understand the concept of a metaphor. I should have called him a tank, as he can bring a better saves via Shield Drones and his own 3+. From my point of view, a buff is a buff, hence the incorrect term used ironically.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

There are 2 slight issues with the post. Firstly he doesn't drag the drone squadron with him. They are not his drones.

Secondly you can't make a Coldstar Buffmander as he can't take signature systems...

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Hence the "odd interaction".

As to the second part, buffmamber as probably the wrong term to use, as todays interwebz doesn't understand the concept of a metaphor. I should have called him a tank, as he can bring a better saves via Shield Drones and his own 3+. From my point of view, a buff is a buff, hence the incorrect term used ironically.

SJ

Has nothing to do with the "interwebz" ability to understand a metaphor. A buff is a buff, but a Buffmander is a relatively specific Commander loadout with almost all of the Signature Systems and no weapons (other than maybe a flamer). You simply used the wrong term.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

There are 2 slight issues with the post. Firstly he doesn't drag the drone squadron with him. They are not his drones.

Secondly you can't make a Coldstar Buffmander as he can't take signature systems...

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Hence the "odd interaction".

The odd interaction is only in your head. No Drones not purchased as an Upgrade by the the Commander would be able to be "dragged along". There is no permission to "drag along" any other Drones, whether a Drone Squad on their own or upgrades to another Commander or Battlesuit.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
There is this odd rules interaction with a Coldstar attached to a Drone squad which allows the Coldstar to drag the Drones with him while swooping, deploying the Drones back on the table while gliding. Makes for some interesting repositioning tactics.

Another good interaction is as a buffmamber to Vespid Stingwings (if you for some odd reason take Vespids), due to Vespids being Jump Infantry.

SJ

There are 2 slight issues with the post. Firstly he doesn't drag the drone squadron with him. They are not his drones.

Secondly you can't make a Coldstar Buffmander as he can't take signature systems...

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Hence the "odd interaction".

As to the second part, buffmamber as probably the wrong term to use, as todays interwebz doesn't understand the concept of a metaphor. I should have called him a tank, as he can bring a better saves via Shield Drones and his own 3+. From my point of view, a buff is a buff, hence the incorrect term used ironically.

SJ

So how does your quote in any way shape or form support your bizarre drones that aren't his drones can get dragged along with him swooping? Literally nothing supports or even hints at that claim.

The Buffmander is a specific term. You either forgot that he can't be used in conjunction with Coldstar and are failing to admit that. Or you used a term you clearly didn't understand and are failing to admit that...

I've already explained the odd interaction twice, and admited to using the term buffmander incorrectly. At this point it's a failure to read on your part.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

SJ

The bolded shows there is no odd interaction. If the Comm. joins a drone unit, it clearly shows that his drones and the drone unit are separate.

Fragile wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

SJ

The bolded shows there is no odd interaction. If the Comm. joins a drone unit, it clearly shows that his drones and the drone unit are separate.

Pretty sure the BRB says otherwise:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).”

Yep, there it is.

SJ

I would say that a Coldstar Commander wouldn't "drag" any drones that weren't bought for him specifically away with him, as the codex consistently differentiates between drones bought for a character and a separate unit (they always refer to drones bought for a character as "his drones"). No where else in the rules dictate which models "belong" to him other than the ones bought for his upgrades, and even the BRB doesn't say that if he joins a squad, all members suddenly become "his".

However, if he can indeed drag drones away with him, it brings up a comical image of the drones just magnetically humping on him and forming a katamari-ball of drones around him as they roll around in the air.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

SJ

The bolded shows there is no odd interaction. If the Comm. joins a drone unit, it clearly shows that his drones and the drone unit are separate.

Pretty sure the BRB says otherwise:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).”

Yep, there it is.

SJ

While Fragile implies a mistiming of the separation, the fact is that the Commander and HIS Drones become a separate unit when the Commander leaves and cannot just replace those Drones with Drones from a Drone Squad, just like they are a separate unit before they join.

So, no odd interactions, just some paperwork to address to keep the Drones straight.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

Fragile wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:

First part is supported by:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTERSAND DRONES
Independent Characters who have taken Drones as upgrades are still permitted to join units, in which case both the character and his Drones join the unit. If the Independent Character then leaves the unit, all his surviving Drones also leave the unit, forming a separate unit with him.
If the Independent Character is killed whilst part of a unit, his surviving Drones are thereafter part of that unit and cannot leave it; the Independent Character’s unit has, for the purposes of Victory Points, been destroyed.

SJ

The bolded shows there is no odd interaction. If the Comm. joins a drone unit, it clearly shows that his drones and the drone unit are separate.

Pretty sure the BRB says otherwise:

INDEPENDENT CHARACTER
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Warhammer 40,000 (eBook Edition).”

Yep, there it is.

SJ

Where exactly in your quote does it say that the Drones belong to the Commander? Where in ANYTHING you posted is there ANY support for your bizarre claim?

The issue you have is you've made a rules claim then repeatedly posted rules that underline the claim is not correct, but refuse to share with us why you think what has lead you to believe your interpretation is correct. Please explain why the drones would get dragged along with him despite the IC rules and Coldstar rules explicitly saying they don't.

Sorry, for some odd reason I still expect people to read. My bad, I'll explain:

1. An IC that joins a unit is counted as a member of that unit for all rules purposes per the BRB. The IC has additional rules on how they interact with the unit as well as how to leave.

2. A Tau IC with Drones may still join a unit, with rules defining how any Drones the IC brings with it are part of the unit until the IC leaves, per the TE codex. Even if the IC dies, the Drones the IC brought remain with the unit the IC joined.

3. Coldstar is an IC that may take Drones, and has a rule that states that while swooping the Drones with it are removed from the table, but while gliding the Drones are returned to the table and continue to form a unit with the Coldstar.

4. A Coldstar joined to a unit of Drones will cause the Drones to be removed from the table while swooping, and returned to the table while gliding, due to the "odd interaction" of it's rules, the TE Drone rules, and the IC rules.

5. This topic was heavily discused when the Coldstar rules leaked, discused again when the WDW article was published, and no one mentioned it when the TE codex came out beyond confirming that yep, the rules didn't change between WDW and the codex.

6. It mystifies me that people are now arguing against a combo that was noted monthes ago as not only legal, but of dubious tactical worth. It's one thing to argue that its a bad idea due to the Coldstar being a fragile platform, it's another thing to deny the ability at all when it's clearly written to do so.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Sorry, for some odd reason I still expect people to read. My bad, I'll explain:

1. An IC that joins a unit is counted as a member of that unit for all rules purposes per the BRB. The IC has additional rules on how they interact with the unit as well as how to leave.

Correct.

2. A Tau IC with Drones may still join a unit, with rules defining how any Drones the IC brings with it are part of the unit until the IC leaves, per the TE codex. Even if the IC dies, the Drones the IC brought remain with the unit the IC joined.

Not even but ONLY when the IC dies do the drones become permanent members of the unit.

3. Coldstar is an IC that may take Drones, and has a rule that states that while swooping the Drones with it are removed from the table, but while gliding the Drones are returned to the table and continue to form a unit with the Coldstar.

Is that a lie or did you not bother reading the rules you quoted because that is not true according to the rules you posted.

4. A Coldstar joined to a unit of Drones will cause the Drones to be removed from the table while swooping, and returned to the table while gliding, due to the "odd interaction" of it's rules, the TE Drone rules, and the IC rules.

Nope only the Drones that the rules say get removed. This has been highlighted to you by others or you could just read the rules you posted?

5. This topic was heavily discused when the Coldstar rules leaked, discused again when the WDW article was published, and no one mentioned it when the TE codex came out beyond confirming that yep, the rules didn't change between WDW and the codex.

Cool the rules haven't changed. The interaction didn't happen in the WD rules and still doesn't now.

6. It mystifies me that people are now arguing against a combo that was noted monthes ago as not only legal, but of dubious tactical worth. It's one thing to argue that its a bad idea due to the Coldstar being a fragile platform, it's another thing to deny the ability at all when it's clearly written to do so.
SJ

Well as you rules you've posted clearly indicate this isn't legal unless you completely make up your own rules to make it legal like you did with point 3...

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Sorry, for some odd reason I still expect people to read. My bad, I'll explain:
4. A Coldstar joined to a unit of Drones will cause the Drones to be removed from the table while swooping, and returned to the table while gliding, due to the "odd interaction" of it's rules, the TE Drone rules, and the IC rules.

Ah, it is an out of context sentense use which causes this.

The paragraph starts with the part about the Drones the IC has being part of his unit while Gliding. The next sentence then states that THE Drones are removed from the field while Swooping.

If taken alone, this sentence would lead to the odd interaction that you are describing. However, with the sentence before it providing a context of what "the Drones" are, we can easily dismiss interaction as nothing more than a misread.

The Coldstar's rules do not specify that the only Drones it can carry are the ones purchased for it. The Coldstar's rules do state that ANY Drones with him are carried:

“XV86 COLDSTARBATTLESUIT
A Commander equipped with an XV86 Coldstar battlesuit has the Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) unit type, but does not have the Fear, Smash, or Vector Strike special rules. They also have a multi-tracker and blacksun filter.
If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding. When he is Swooping, the Drones are removed from the battlefield. If he is slain whilst Swooping, his Drones are destroyed. If a Swooping Commander changes flight mode (or is grounded), his surviving Drones are immediately placed on the battlefield in unit coherency with him”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Any Drones. Any.

Per the IC rules and the TE Drone rules, a Coldstar attached to a unit of Drones is a single unit, regardless of whether or not the Coldstar purchased Drones of its own. If GW wanted to exclude Drones from an attached unit, they would specified just the Coldstar's Drones. GW did not. What they did do is state that "any" Drones accompanying the Coldstar are effected.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Coldstar's rules do not specify that the only Drones it can carry are the ones purchased for it. The Coldstar's rules do state that ANY Drones with him are carried:

“XV86 COLDSTARBATTLESUIT
A Commander equipped with an XV86 Coldstar battlesuit has the Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) unit type, but does not have the Fear, Smash, or Vector Strike special rules. They also have a multi-tracker and blacksun filter.
If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding. When he is Swooping, the Drones are removed from the battlefield. If he is slain whilst Swooping, his Drones are destroyed. If a Swooping Commander changes flight mode (or is grounded), his surviving Drones are immediately placed on the battlefield in unit coherency with him”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Any Drones. Any.

Per the IC rules and the TE Drone rules, a Coldstar attached to a unit of Drones is a single unit, regardless of whether or not the Coldstar purchased Drones of its own. If GW wanted to exclude Drones from an attached unit, they would specified just the Coldstar's Drones. GW did not. What they did do is state that "any" Drones accompanying the Coldstar are effected.

SJ

"If the Commander has any Drones" would indicate otherwise. Since there is no other way for a Commander to actually HAVE Drones other than those purchased from its options.

The rule is not "Any Drones in the unit with the Commander" or "all Drones in the unit with the Commander".

Epic context failure.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
The Coldstar's rules do not specify that the only Drones it can carry are the ones purchased for it. The Coldstar's rules do state that ANY Drones with him are carried:

“XV86 COLDSTARBATTLESUIT
A Commander equipped with an XV86 Coldstar battlesuit has the Flying Monstrous Creature (Character) unit type, but does not have the Fear, Smash, or Vector Strike special rules. They also have a multi-tracker and blacksun filter.
If the Commander has any Drones, they form a unit with him while he is Gliding. When he is Swooping, the Drones are removed from the battlefield. If he is slain whilst Swooping, his Drones are destroyed. If a Swooping Commander changes flight mode (or is grounded), his surviving Drones are immediately placed on the battlefield in unit coherency with him”

Excerpt From: Workshop, Games. “Codex: Tau Empire (Mobile Edition).”

Any Drones. Any.

Per the IC rules and the TE Drone rules, a Coldstar attached to a unit of Drones is a single unit, regardless of whether or not the Coldstar purchased Drones of its own. If GW wanted to exclude Drones from an attached unit, they would specified just the Coldstar's Drones. GW did not. What they did do is state that "any" Drones accompanying the Coldstar are effected.

SJ

Not sure if you're just trolling, lying and hoping we don't notice or insane? It most certainly does not say any drones accompanying the Commander. Do rescind that claim as your own quote proves it is incorrect. Heck you even highlighted the part that proves you wrong. Now do you have ANY rules that actually support your claims or are going to continue posting stuff that destroys your argument?

"Any drones" is putting the emphasis on the wrong part of the sentence(or rather ignoring part of the context).

You bolded what it is. If the Commander has any drones. That would mean if the commander takes any upgrade drones; those are the drones the commander has. Joining a unit of drones makes the commander part of a drone unit having nothing at all to do with the IC and upgrade drones rules(whether or not he has drones).

So now we move to the third sentence after the bolded bit; what happens if he dies while swooping: "...his drones are destroyed." So if your assertion is correct; what happens to the drone unit he joined?

The Drone unit je joins are not drones he has any more than the drones posessed by a Firewarrior shas'ui are hids drones, or drones he has.

The third line tells use that an attacked unit of Drone will die if the Coldstar dies while swooping.

SJ