Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Last night, gangs of men sexually assaulted two women in the areas of the estate where my girlfriend lives whilst she's at University. Upon checking the police figures, sexual and violent crimes have tripled there in the last year. Naturally, she's quite concerned about all this, and really wants some way of protecting herself.

Unfortunately, British laws are exceptionally tight on personal defence. No guns (obviously), no edged weapons, in fact, no weapons, period. Carrying anything the police judge to be a weapon (which is a very wide range of things) is enough to get arrested. Chemical sprays are also illegal, so no mace or suchlike. About the only designated self-defence items that are legal are a non-toxic staining spray (to later identify people with), and 'rape alarms' which emit a loud noise.

Naturally, I'm trying to find her something a bit more effective than a paint spray and pseudo-car alarm. But the catch is to try and keep it legal. So far, the best I've come up with is a very high powered metal torch (for blinding, 200 lumens plus) that can be used as a club in a pinch, and one of those long combs with a spike on the end.

Any other suggestions Dakka?

I am not a lawyer.

Do you have wasp spray in the UK? Wasp Spray is not illegal to have on your person.

"I just happened to be carrying this legal spray when I was attacked. What else could I do?"

/I am not a lawyer.

Sharks with freaking lasers on their heards!

Wait... Is she near a body of salt water? Drat...

How about a hair pin? Good long one of a sturdy material could make a good stabbing weapon in a pinch (go for the groin), but it sounds like your cops have a lot of leeway in their ability to define something as a weapon so I don't know XD

Like this;



Fashionable and potentially painful XD

Another thing to review is her habits and routine for safety. You can go a long way to improving one's safety by ensuring you don't travel alone, or at dark areas at night. College campuses are generally dangerous for females to be alone at during the late hours.

Have you ever sprayed perfume/aftershave in your eye accidentally?

There's no reason why a woman wouldn't be carrying perfume in her handbag.

Basic safety precautions to aid prevention not resolution, stay out of dodgy areas, avoid night time, dont go alone, use taxis if possible, stay in touch with family as to whereabouts etc etc. seem more pertinent imo.

 Ratius wrote:
Basic safety precautions to aid prevention not resolution, stay out of dodgy areas, avoid night time, dont go alone, use taxis if possible, stay in touch with family as to whereabouts etc etc. seem more pertinent imo.

Very much this. Everything should be done to ensure that she isn't in that situation before you go looking for ways to skirt weapon laws.

Well many things can be used as weapons effectively.
I don't think the police would have issues with her carrying a bunch of keys attached to a sling. I (as student) have a small padlock for the library attached as well. This is a nasty flail in case of need.
Or a screwdriver can potentially be used as a weapon as well. No one should have problems with that since it is a tool.

Basically any sharp object can be used to cut and pierce and any heavy hard object can be thrown or used to hit in order to cause concussion.
Maybe one of each so she has one for medium range and one for close range.

A roll of coins (that you would get from a bank). Wrap your fist around that sucker and start wailing away.

 Ratius wrote:
Basic safety precautions to aid prevention not resolution, stay out of dodgy areas, avoid night time, dont go alone, use taxis if possible, stay in touch with family as to whereabouts etc etc. seem more pertinent imo.

She works late (she's a bit of an insomniac) and so regularly travels through this estate in the early hours. Unfortunately, the estate is generally not that well lit, and the public transport cuts off late at night. So whilst prevention is all very well and good, I have to deal with the situation as is to an extent.

Wasp spray sounds promising at first, but some quick online search shows that odds are it probably doesn't actually incapacitate an attacker. I suppose it could distract them though, One to consider. Keep 'em coming!

Hmm...that is a bit tougher, then. It's not a good situation for her.

In that case, I would focus on tools that are easy to use or make a racket. Don't listen to this stuff about throwing anything, she's going to have one throw, in the dark and she'll be panicked. That is going to be a guaranteed miss.

A fistful of keys (held to make something of a claw) is good, especially if she goes for eyes and noses. And her other option is sound and a lot of it. Attackers are usually after someone because they believe they are easy or quick prey, the harder she makes it for them, and the more likely she makes it for them to be noticed, the less likely it is for the attack to go on for long.

A good solid torch like a maglite is probably the best bet if she really wants something that can be used as a weapon if need be but isn't likely to get her arrested. She should definitely also carry a rape alarm though.

She doesn't necessarily need to incapacitate an attacker - just make them decide it's not worth the bother.

Go splits on a taxi. The best self defense and peace of mind is removing yourself from the situation.

If that's not an option, you want done thing that will draw attention. Think air horn, rape alarm, sonic devices. In all honesty making an attacker realise they will be seen is a better bet than trying to hit them in a panic if you're unprepared.

Call the local taxi company and arrange a nightly pickup. If you can guarantee them regular business they will provide a cab for you no problem.
Sure theres a cost but infinitely less than 6 months in hospital (or heaven forbid worse).

I suppose if the chances of being sexually assaulted or being maimed are great enough, she ought to weigh that against the disadvantages of being arrested. I should think it is on the whole better to have a record but also to have avoided being raped, maimed, etc, than to be a sexual assault survivor (in the best scenario) with a clean record. And while she is forced to transgress these (as Thomas Aquinas would say) crooked laws, denuding the people of their natural right to defend their own lives, I would suggest perhaps organizing a petition and/or contacting your MP to get the ball rolling on allowing UK citizens some modicum of liberty in protecting themselves.

I've looked into the legal weapon laws in the UK previously, and realised that carrying a multitool in my backpack (lots of things can break, it's useful to have something which can screw your laptop/camera/phone back together) is actually technically illegal thanks to the locking blade. Of course, whether anyone cares about this is another matter, but I imagine that plenty of people break these laws every day without realising it.

However, having an item on your person for the specific purpose of causing harm to someone does appear to be illegal, and I believe the courts can count anything as an offensive weapon if it fits that criterion. Unfortunately, that does mean that there are very few defensive strategies in these circumstances. I would suggest some sort of spray (gel, paint, or wasp ) as even though these don't incapacitate in the same manner as pepper spray, they're basically the most useful tool available to us here, and in a lot of cases, simply deterring or disorientating the attacker will be adequate. EDIT: a metal torch is actually a very good suggestion. Last I checked, I think those were still legal...

Good luck!

 -Nazdreg- wrote:
Well many things can be used as weapons effectively.
I don't think the police would have issues with her carrying a bunch of keys attached to a sling. I (as student) have a small padlock for the library attached as well. This is a nasty flail in case of need.
Or a screwdriver can potentially be used as a weapon as well. No one should have problems with that since it is a tool.

Basically any sharp object can be used to cut and pierce and any heavy hard object can be thrown or used to hit in order to cause concussion.
Maybe one of each so she has one for medium range and one for close range.

Physical close combat has to be a absolute last resort. If she's fumbling in her bag for something and there's a man twice her size or a group, the odds are that anything she can do like that will probably just make them angrier, even if it hurts. So the emphasis really needs to be on a fast way of incapacitating someone for a few minutes so she can get away.

 Ratius wrote:
Call the local taxi company and arrange a nightly pickup. If you can guarantee them regular business they will provide a cab for you no problem.
Sure theres a cost but infinitely less than 6 months in hospital (or heaven forbid worse).

Students aren't too flush on cash for regular taxi runs unfortunately.

I dont doubt that but between the two of you (give her a few quid) + maybe a friend or two of hers its by far the simplist and safest solutiuon.

 Ketara wrote:

Unfortunately, British laws are exceptionally tight on personal defence. No guns (obviously), no edged weapons, in fact, no weapons, period. Carrying anything the police judge to be a weapon (which is a very wide range of things) is enough to get arrested. Chemical sprays are also illegal, so no mace or suchlike. About the only designated self-defence items that are legal are a non-toxic staining spray (to later identify people with), and 'rape alarms' which emit a loud noise.

I did not know this, I thought you could carry at least mace. That is pretty terrifying honestly.

Somebody said hair spray, do they come in small enough bottle? Does she smoke? I know it is unlikely to do much more than show, but if she has the time she could definitely make it in to a flame thrower. At least it would make a decent show to discourage people. If she is unable to get the lighter/spray going, the stuff does burn the eyes.

Are tazers also illegal?

Honestly, it sounds like your best bet would be self defense classes.

Well see what you...wait you have a girlfriend?

Schutzhund trained German Shepard

On a serious note cell phone, keys, flash light, pen, tell her go for the face and eyes. Fight like a wild person screaming, kicking, scratching, biting, there are no rules

Aside from things people have already mentioned (keeping your head on a swivel to maintain SA, avoiding sketchy areas, stay away from dark alleys, things like that), a very bright flash light can really dazzle people and it's easier to use than something silly like wasp spray.

If you blast someone with a 600 lumen face melter, their night vision will be shot.

A lot of these recommendations are unrealistic...poking a compliant person with a hair pin is hard let alone someone fighting you. Wasp spray, bricks, etc. are all huge and she's not going to carry them on her person. A self defense class? Maybe but unless she trains to the level of a competitive fighter, she's still going to get her ass handed to her by a guy with a 25-100 lb advantage. There's no easy fix - by means of passing silly laws, Britain has put its people in danger and it's sad to see.

My votes are for the hair pin and maglite personally. We have an issue in the US of police "protecting and serving" with their 12-inch friends, and they are effective. If she uses a hair pin make sure she actually wears it once in a while. It'll be easier to pull out of her hair to stab a fool than a bag.

Changing habits is both safe and proven to be effective, but at the end of it all a shady area is still a shady area.

What about a good old brick in the purse? Once you've struck the foe, just drop it in a bush before the police arrive.

 Ketara wrote:
Unfortunately, British laws are exceptionally tight on personal defence. No guns (obviously), no edged weapons, in fact, no weapons, period. Carrying anything the police judge to be a weapon (which is a very wide range of things) is enough to get arrested. Chemical sprays are also illegal, so no mace or suchlike. About the only designated self-defence items that are legal are a non-toxic staining spray (to later identify people with), and 'rape alarms' which emit a loud noise.

Yarg thats tough :/ i understand the gun thing culturally but completely making your citizens helpless is sad.

a Torch wouldn't be a bad idea. especially since the area you say is not well lit. if its heavy enough it could be used to defend your self at the least.

I remember seeing an ad for a mobile phone app that if you activate it when you feel threatened, will basically have some one listen in and if something bad happens they will the police and record everything and your location and stuff.

edit: as others pointed out though alarms and precaution and making sure people know your scheduled is probably the best start.

 Gitzbitah wrote:
What about a good old brick in the purse? Once you've struck the foe, just drop it in a bush before the police arrive.

I second this

-Shrike- wrote:
However, having an item on your person for the specific purpose of causing harm to someone does appear to be illegal, and I believe the courts can count anything as an offensive weapon if it fits that criterion.

Dreadwinter wrote:
I did not know this, I thought you could carry at least mace. That is pretty terrifying honestly.

The general rule of thumb is that anything a policeman wants to count as an offensive weapon is, unless you can produce a legitimate explanation for carrying it. Women have been locked up before for carrying tasers and pepper spray illegally.

Does she smoke? I know it is unlikely to do much more than show, but if she has the time she could definitely make it in to a flame thrower. At least it would make a decent show to discourage people. If she is unable to get the lighter/spray going, the stuff does burn the eyes.

Hi Ragnar Benson, I didn't know you were a member of Dakka.

That's a good suggestion, but potentially dicey.

Honestly, it sounds like your best bet would be self defense classes.

Having just looked into it, her uni offers Muay Thai and MMA classes. Either would give her some experience of grappling with a man trying to get her into a specific angle (to put it delicately). They also have a 'Nin-Jutsu' course which teaches weapon usage, which whilst of dubious usefulness, would give her a legitimate reason for carrying a physical weapon ('I was going to and from practice officer!').

Edit by Manchu

its like all of the people engaging in this thread are playing a game of make-believe, with self-limiting rules. Now gosh how can we get up these stairs? We aren't allowed to use any of our limbs. If you use a limb you might go to jail!

 judgedoug wrote:
Edit by Manchu

its like all of the people engaging in this thread are playing a game of make-believe, with self-limiting rules. Now gosh how can we get up these stairs? We aren't allowed to use any of our limbs. If you use a limb you might go to jail!

To be honest, weapon laws are like this not only in Britain, but also many other countries in Europe. If I remember correctly, Germany also has this line in the law where you are not allowed to carry anything for the purpose of causing harm to another person, even if it is in self-defense. So if you carry a small knife, you also better carry an apple and a kiwi so that you can argue that you need your knife to cut up your morning snack!

Did a little research and a Schutzhund trained German Shepard cost around 60k if you want a protection dog. Be cheaper to buy her a car.

But this would be so much fun

http://youtu.be/4cW0vigD6EE