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Davor wrote: Can someone please next time they say how awesome 3D printing is going to be, please put a price for it. Put how much hydro it is going to cost, how much the resin or what ever you need to use to be sculpted with is going to cost, how much time it will take to make one mini, and what the wear and tear will be.
Can you say make 20, 30 minis non stop without something burning out?
For the Form 1+ you can pick one up for about $2500 reconditioned. The media is about $150 per Liter, though how many marines this translates into I'm unsure, as it would depend on how much sprue, etc you have. I optimistically figure about $15 for 20 marines. As far as wear, it has few moving parts, it's more a matter of keeping it clean to ensure the accuracy of the lasers. The time intensive part isn't so much producing the piece as it is ensuring that the printer is properly maintained between uses.
Ideally, again, you'd produce a laser master and then spincast etc the rest from that mold, which makes it much more cost effective.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/19 10:08:05
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Stormonu wrote: The easier 3D printing gets, the more restrictions will spring up around WHAT you can print. Everyone's gotta eat somehow, and when the balancing point tips that something occurs to make 3D printing "affordable", it will throw the manufacturing world into chaos.
We saw something similar with music and movies. The DRM technology was created so that people could only play the songs they purchased. While illegal downloading will never stop, providing a method for legal downloading models to print will ensure profit it still had.
We can see examples of this today though services such as Amazon Prime. I buy all my kids movies off that service, as the ease of queing up a movie to play instead of fiddling with a DVD or chromecast file makes it effective. I'm also willing to throw down 15-20 bucks for a good movie, and most people are willing to do the same.
If you want to watch a insightful video from Discovery News on piracy, check this out. The most interesting part links studies that show people who pirate movies tend to spend 30% more on media than people who do not.
Stormonu wrote: We're not yet at the point and I believe it will be at least another 10-20 years unless something revolutionary springs up (The Ted video is showing some nice advances, but it isn't quite the catalyst to springboard 3D printing forward in leaps and bounds).
10-20 years seems pretty far out there, but as has been stated by industry professionals it's impossible to predict.
Stormonu wrote: I can see down the road proprietary GW "chips" being issued for proprietary GW 3D printers that contained DRM'ed "official" designs for printing - like the one you can buy for devices like the kricut.
Meanwhile, there will be knockoffs where folks have unraveled the DRM and you can print off your minis in lower-cost, lower resolution printers - but that will be a time when practically everyone already has some form of 3D printer in their home.
It's possible they might go a hardware route. If they did that, they could sell them to FLGS who could print out your models for you. Imagine going to your FLGS and asking for a few squads of models. Instead of them being 'out of stock', they tell you to wait 20 minutes and they will be ready. In a perfect would, GW would pass some of the savings onto the consumer, since they will not need to worry about the cost of inventory, packaging, or even shipping -- though the raw materials would need to still be shipped. I somehow doubt that though
Ideally, again, you'd produce a laser master and then spincast etc the rest from that mold, which makes it much more cost effective.
This was said before,we can do that right now. Maybe a few handful of people are doing it, but most of us are not. So I can't see why getting a 3D printer to print out minis or a master and then spin cast is going to be a deal breaker because we are not doing it now.
Agies Grimm:The "Learn to play, bro" mentality is mostly just a way for someone to try to shame you by implying that their metaphorical nerd-wiener is bigger than yours. Which, ironically, I think nerds do even more vehemently than jocks.
Everything is made up and the points don't matter. 40K or Who's Line is it Anyway?
Auticus wrote: Or in summation: its ok to exploit shoddy points because those are rules and gamers exist to find rules loopholes (they are still "legal"), but if the same force can be composed without structure, it emotionally feels "wrong".
Lets go trough my "if all players where like me would 3D printing ruin GW (unless they are adapting to it soon) or not, " quiz.
1 Do you already have a 3d printer and are currently enjoying your printed army ?
Yes A
No go to 2
2. Do you play magic, or have you ever played magic.
Yes go to 3
No go to 4
3 Are the last decks you played 100% proxied with your own printed cards
Yes go to 5
No go to B
4 Are you sick of paying full price for GW stuff and looking for alternatives even if they involve some "creative" activities.
Or are you looking for or do you enjoy making alternative models & bits.
Yes go to 5
No go to B
5 Are you a 3d modeller.
Yes go to 9
No go to 6
6 Do you mold and cast models for your own usage
Yes go to 9
No go to 7
7 Is a large part of your army scratch build
yes go to 9
no go to 8
8 Would you enjoy 3d printing your own models so much that you would be willing to spend huge amounts of time and money into it and learn lots of new skills for it ?
yes go to 9
No go to B
9 Are you willing to spend an army worth of money on a 3d printer before you got any models out of it, and spend more time and money on it to make the models you would like to make?
Or do you have acces to a 3d printer that you can use for free. Or are you willing to pay a steep price for each model you print even if this turned out to be more expensive then some of the cheaper GW models / bits sites.
yes go to 10
no go to B
10 Would you still be willing to spend that money if it produced flawed miniatures that you had to spend a serious amount of time on to make them look decent ?
If yes go to 11
if no go to B
11 would you still be willing to spend that money if even after fixing it up, it clearly showed that you army was 3d printed to a degree that GW store owners would spot it, and would ban you from using it in his store?
If yes go to A
If no go to B
A
Spoiler:
YES THE SKY IS FALLING GET INTO 3D PRINTING NOW !!
B
Spoiler:
Nope you are just too lazy, cheap or reasonable for pioneer 3d printing. 3d printing will only change something if it became REALLY mainstream and ordering 3d printed models was simpler then ordering a pizza.
This message was edited 8 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 04:59:43
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With the rise of Tabletop Simulator, there has been high demand for .obj files for 40k armies, so scarcity of models no longer exists. Hell, Tabletop Simulator had a highly accurate Stormsurge model before people got their hands on the real thing.
While expensive at the moment, the Wasp Delta printer is very accurate for an enthusiasts printer, and after installing an upgraded controller from their Big Delta (which prints clay building) it kicked it's speed up to 350mm/s.
This video demos the printer from minimum speed, 30mm/s, up to max speed of 350mm/s.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 05:25:04
Nilok wrote: With the rise of Tabletop Simulator, there has been high demand for .obj files for 40k armies, so scarcity of models no longer exists.
I really doubt it. Models for digital use are much more tolerant of things that can make a 3d printing model a pile of mangled garbage in the printer. If you want your results to be at all decent you have to build the model specifically for printing.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Lets go trough my "if all players where like me would 3D printing ruin GW (unless they are adapting to it soon) or not, " quiz.
Caution, this quiz contains more than 60% inaccuracy.
Question 3 is hilarious and erroneous (because land)
Questions 10 and 11 are dependent on your 3d skills. Or if you download pre existing models.
Davor wrote: This was said before,we can do that right now. Maybe a few handful of people are doing it, but most of us are not. So I can't see why getting a 3D printer to print out minis or a master and then spin cast is going to be a deal breaker because we are not doing it now.
Actually this is more or less the process that every small figure company is using atm, notably Raging Heroes. They're just not using it to copy GW. The 3d printer in this case allows you to get around the issue of trying to find (and pay) a good sculptor.
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Peregrine wrote: If you want your results to be at all decent you have to build the model specifically for printing.
Not necessarily. You just have ot be sure that the model does not depend on texture effects to get the job done as opposed to actual geometry.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 13:45:24
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Question 3 is hilarious and erroneous (because land)
Questions 10 and 11 are dependent on your 3d skills. Or if you download pre existing models.
Land is a technicality you know what was intended if you don't print cards you are not likely to print models.
(On top of that lands could be the most expensive parts of your deck. )
On question 10 and 11 It isn't about your 3d skills. Well it is if you suck at it it is really going to suck but that was not what I was hinting at.
Ever seen a 3d printed model with mold lines or a plastic model with resin casting pattern air bubbles no of course not .Each technique has its own traces and you will need to hide those if you don't want to show off your love for 3d print piracy.
Depending on the 3d printing technique you used you will have to remove support beams, clean up holes, remove addition lines and or fill the model with a solid. On top of that there is the issue of model weight and the issue of getting a "perfect" 3d model.
It will be almost impossible for the trained eye not to spot a 3d printed version even if you used a perfect scan and a printer that isnt in your budget range.
Peregrine wrote: If you want your results to be at all decent you have to build the model specifically for printing.
Not necessarily. You just have ot be sure that the model does not depend on texture effects to get the job done as opposed to actual geometry.
Lol I would love to see you trying to print a 3d model that isn't made for 3d printing but for 3d animations or the gaming industry.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Suppose you feed this model into a 3d printer without any adaptations. What would you expect to be the result of your print job assuming that the printer would accept the file in the first place.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 14:40:25
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Land is a technicality you know what was intended if you don't print cards you are not likely to print models.
(On top of that lands could be the most expensive parts of your deck. )
Well, I will admit that Library of Alexandria does have a proxy. However, your point is still (mostly) comparing apples and oranges. The number of cards in a deck that it's worthwhile to proxy is pretty minimal these days, as, prices overall in competitive decks have been decreasing. I can put together one under the cost of a single pack of marines.
oldzoggy wrote: Each technique has its own traces and you will need to hide those if you don't want to show off your love for 3d print piracy.
Or, much like the mold lines and resin voids, if you intend to paint your models.
It will be almost impossible for the trained eye not to spot a 3d printed version even if you used a perfect scan and a printer that isnt in your budget range.
Again, depends on the printer.
I think if this guy was so much as base-coated, the incredibly fine print lines would likely not be visible.
Lol I would love to see you trying to print a 3d model that isn't made for 3d printing but for 3d animations or the gaming industry.
Misleading as there are intermediate steps between taking any 3d model from file to physical that would allow you to claim that it's been 'made for 3d printing'. Your example, for example, would have to be gone over to ensure that all the various parts were actually welded together to avoid errors printing.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
The general consensus is that GW would adapt to this technology. Do you agree with that?
If you mean - switch to use 3D printing techniques to create the minis? Of course, if it's cheaper (see finecast).
If you mean - start selling the digital models? Not until it's so much the industry standard that they have absolutely no choice. DRM doesn't work and there is absolutely no way around that so they will put it off until everyone else is already doing it.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 19:23:59
Peregrine wrote: If you want your results to be at all decent you have to build the model specifically for printing.
Not necessarily. You just have ot be sure that the model does not depend on texture effects to get the job done as opposed to actual geometry.
No, even if you ignore format compatibility issues you almost certainly have to make major changes. Intersecting geometry, parts that aren't watertight, etc, will not print correctly. Parts will probably need to be broken up to fit the size of the printer, give places for support structures to attach, etc. Unless you've deliberately made the model for 3d printing you're probably going to be spending a lot of time and effort getting it ready to print, possibly so much time that it's questionable whether it's even worth salvaging instead of building a new model from scratch.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Sersi wrote: This guy gets it. Home printers may never reach the quality we want at an speed fast enough to print and army. But...why would you when you can print a "master" with the spues and vent already in place. Then make a very simple silicon mold and cast as many resin copies as you want. Each of those "masters" may take a day each to print. But when I was resin casting up my true scale marines I could cast 50-60 and 2-3 hours. A gallon of silicon and resin cost around $150-200, but you can literally cast thousands of 28 mm miniatures with that much.
You can already do this by buying a single copy of a kit and recasting it to make a whole army (and armies for your friends, etc). And yet very few people actually do it because it's a ton of work, and most people would rather just buy the finished product from a store.
They initial startup takes some work true. But once your up and running its vastly cheaper in the long run. Never mind getting the models you want the way you want them. Its not even that expensive of difficult either. Most of what you need can be purchased at a Harbor fright store for cheap. I even have an old article on getting started casting on Dakka somewhere.
Peregrine wrote: No, even if you ignore format compatibility issues you almost certainly have to make major changes. Intersecting geometry, parts that aren't watertight, etc, will not print correctly. Parts will probably need to be broken up to fit the size of the printer, give places for support structures to attach, etc. Unless you've deliberately made the model for 3d printing you're probably going to be spending a lot of time and effort getting it ready to print, possibly so much time that it's questionable whether it's even worth salvaging instead of building a new model from scratch.
In fairness, you could probably 3D print many GW components that come off a sprue, because most components friendly to a 2-part mold will also work for 3D printing. However, digitizing the 200 pieces that comes in a typical GW model box, keeping it all straight afterwards, and checking each piece for defects and reprinting them? Ai Carumba.... you are definitely right in that the time and effort can't possibly be worthwhile; you'd be better off making a model (from scratch) that is more friendly to 3D printing.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:25:31
Sersi wrote: They initial startup takes some work true. But once your up and running its vastly cheaper in the long run. Never mind getting the models you want the way you want them. Its not even that expensive of difficult either. Most of what you need can be purchased at a Harbor fright store for cheap. I even have an old article on getting started casting on Dakka somewhere.
Sure, but it's still work. Legality aside, recasting a whole army is a lot of work. A lot of people would rather just pay the extra money, skip the work, and buy a model from the store. That's why very few people bother to recast their own models. If they're using recasts at all it's almost always ones they buy, with the only difference between their purchases and buying legally from GW being the name on the credit card transaction. And I seriously doubt the ability to 3d print a master for recasting is going to change anything for people who don't think it's worth it to buy one copy of a tactical squad box and recast a dozen more.
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Talys wrote: In fairness, you could probably 3D print many GW components that come off a sprue, because most components friendly to a 2-part mold will also work for 3D printing.
Oh, sure, the actual part designs would print just fine. The issue is how the model is constructed. For example, if I'm doing a purely digital sculpt to make a space marine movie and I want to have a skull on the marine's armor I can make a separate skull and place it on the armor wherever I want. It doesn't matter if the skull model intersects the armor. But if I'm making that same model for printing I have to actually attach the skull to the armor, delete the armor underneath it, seal all of the connection points, and make sure I don't have any invisible polygons behind the surface of the model. The end result looks the same, but how it is constructed can be very different.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:33:58
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Sure, but it's still work. Legality aside, recasting a whole army is a lot of work. A lot of people would rather just pay the extra money, skip the work, and buy a model from the store. That's why very few people bother to recast their own models. If they're using recasts at all it's almost always ones they buy, with the only difference between their purchases and buying legally from GW being the name on the credit card transaction. And I seriously doubt the ability to 3d print a master for recasting is going to change anything for people who don't think it's worth it to buy one copy of a tactical squad box and recast a dozen more.
I don't dispute what your saying. I'm just pointing out for those who were saying that it is impossible or super expensive that its not. Whether its worth it to you, is something else all together. I'm also a finescale modeler and we us cast and recast model parts all the time, because every model is a custom job anyway. I use 3D printing and photo-etching for parts. You assembling and painting up a $800 army anyway, that's the hobby. So why not do a bit more work to get what you want? That said I have over 300 true-scale marines each comparable in size to a Terminator, do the math $50 for 5X Terminators, multiplied by 60 and it would cost you $3,000 USD. The resin, silicon, air compressor and pressure pot didn't even cost a $500; and I still had 3/4 or the resin remaining. Casting miniatures doesn't actually take much material at all.
Peregrine wrote: No, even if you ignore format compatibility issues you almost certainly have to make major changes. Intersecting geometry, parts that aren't watertight, etc, will not print correctly. Parts will probably need to be broken up to fit the size of the printer, give places for support structures to attach, etc. Unless you've deliberately made the model for 3d printing you're probably going to be spending a lot of time and effort getting it ready to print, possibly so much time that it's questionable whether it's even worth salvaging instead of building a new model from scratch.
I think you did not get as far as my response to Zoggy where I mentioned geometry welding, etc. (Not) Surprisingly, there are companies that offer programs that do most of this automatically (Daz3D springs to mind), though you'll still want to check their work.
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
Sersi wrote: So why not do a bit more work to get what you want?
I think you're confusing two separate groups here:
The people like you, who want quality of the finished product at all costs and are willing to invest tons of time and effort into customizing every model, are going to love 3d printing. It's an amazing tool for small-volume production of custom parts. But this is a tiny minority of GW's market.
The majority of GW's market just want normal models at a cheaper price. They build most of their stuff by the standard instructions, with customization limited to maybe swapping a weapon or head here and there. If 3d printing is easier and cheaper for building a generic tactical squad they'll take the 3d printed models. If not, they'll buy another box off the shelf from their local GW store. Right now 3d printing is just not an appealing option to this group, and this is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It won't be as effective for mass production as injection molded plastic, and this group is not going to screw around with printing masters and casting copies of them.
There is no such thing as a hobby without politics. "Leave politics at the door" is itself a political statement, an endorsement of the status quo and an attempt to silence dissenting voices.
Sersi wrote: So why not do a bit more work to get what you want?
I think you're confusing two separate groups here:
The people like you, who want quality of the finished product at all costs and are willing to invest tons of time and effort into customizing every model, are going to love 3d printing. It's an amazing tool for small-volume production of custom parts. But this is a tiny minority of GW's market.
The majority of GW's market just want normal models at a cheaper price. They build most of their stuff by the standard instructions, with customization limited to maybe swapping a weapon or head here and there. If 3d printing is easier and cheaper for building a generic tactical squad they'll take the 3d printed models. If not, they'll buy another box off the shelf from their local GW store. Right now 3d printing is just not an appealing option to this group, and this is unlikely to change in the foreseeable future. It won't be as effective for mass production as injection molded plastic, and this group is not going to screw around with printing masters and casting copies of them.
This.
There are roughly a few kind of players.
Those who love to model and get their hands dirty. Most of us do so already use molding techniques and other newer methods. For those affordable 3d printing could be really cool.
But this is not the group the pro 3d printer league is talking about. Nor the group GW should really care about. GW's sales are totally unaffected by me changing from sculting and then casting my own stuff to me printing and then casting my own stuff. On top even if it replaced my need to buy some of the harder to sculpt parts we are really the minority.
Now the other group of players. They consist of roughly 3 groups.
Those who like anything simple and legit. -> GW should never fear this group.
Those who are willing to buy alternative models if it is cheaper but would never get their hands dirty themselves and don't care if their models don't look the same. 3d printing might be worth it for this group in the future. As for now it is just not simple enough not affordable enough for whole models if you don't own a printer. Bits sites might have to worry in the near future.
And then there is the last group.
I have the feeling that his is really the group the most of the vocal pro 3d printing league consists of.
This is the group of players who don't want any model they want GW's model and they want it as cheap as possible.
This is the group who orders Chinese recasts and wants to play with them at GW stores and tournaments.
For this group 3d printing is totally unfit. 3d printing will just not create the same models. There is no way on earth that you guys are ever going to get a printed model that can not be distinguished from an original GW model with ease.
If you belong to this group and don't agree with me that is fine. I don't care. Just know that anybody who actually works with these materials knows when someone is using models that are made with the wrong technique or material even if you painted them or printed them with way to costy high res printers. If 3d printing ever became a risk for GW all GW would have to do is educate its (store) staff and support the tournaments scene in order to enforce the use of GW models they are done. It is this simple.
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I think you've nailed it. There is definitely a contingent who think that once they can afford a decent 3D printer that they'll just download a few files from piratebay, press a button and a free army will fall out of the machine.
Scott-S6 wrote: I think you've nailed it. There is definitely a contingent who think that once they can afford a decent 3D printer that they'll just download a few files from piratebay, press a button and a free army will fall out of the machine.
Well, we are starting to develop 3d printers that can print fine metal structures at microscopic scales, and a printer with a thousand of those print heads would make a wicked Desktop Forge, which players of Shadowrun know is awesome. But ya, both the cost of hardware and material needs to be low enough to make it cost effective.
The most efficient long term setup would be a high quality PLA 3d printer, a PLA filament extruder, and PLA beads to be extruded into filament.
Putting this together, you are looking at a cost of $1,850 from a 20 micron PLA printer, $299 for a PLA filament extruder, and $9.99 per 2lb of PLA beads, which is a little less than a solid 9x9x9 inch cube of PLA. This means you need an initial investment of $2,158.99, with a resupply of $9.99 for another 9x9x9 inch cube of PLA material.
Simply put, actually owning the 3d printer you print on would be a cost so high you would need to look into actually selling the models you produce in order for it to be worth while. For a outsourced 3d printer, like Shapeways, you are looking at about $12 per miniature, depending on size and material.
In other words, the technology still needs a several more years of miniaturization and cost optimization before it can really cut into classic injection molding like what GW uses, and maybe a decade off from what Bandai Japan does (assuming Gunpla doesn't keep improving).
This is the group who orders Chinese recasts and wants to play with them at GW stores and tournaments.
In all fairness, the only time I've ever done this was after getting three terrible GW failcast copies in a row. The recasters did a much better job, with nice, crisp detail.
Ironically, it was not spotted, but the use of 3rd party heads on some IG was....
Fate is in heaven, armor is on the chest, accomplishment is in the feet. - Nagao Kagetora
