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How do you know they need money to release this boardgame? Because they started a KS? How do you know they don't have 10 million in the bank right now? Using that standard, I need money, insaniak. Can you pretty please send me a fiver? Hey, there's even a website for that, right? I'll send you a plastic Ork arm In the mail. Maybe.
Kickstarter is corporate, professional panhandling, and it seems to be perfectly acceptable to a lot of people. It's fascinating.
the_Armyman wrote: How do you know they need money to release this boardgame? Because they started a KS? How do you know they don't have 10 million in the bank right now?
Why would I care?
Is your desire for a product directly linked to the bank balance of that product's creator?
Using that standard, I need money, insaniak. Can you pretty please send me a fiver? Hey, there's even a website for that, right? I'll send you a plastic Ork arm In the mail. Maybe.
That's not the standard. The standard is 'They are offering a product I want, at a price I'm prepared to pay'.
Whether or not they actually need the money is as relevant to me as which brand of coffee they have in their lunch room. I tend to assume that if they're running a business, they're trying to make money.
Kickstarter is corporate, professional panhandling, and it seems to be perfectly acceptable to a lot of people. It's fascinating.
So long as they ultimately get what they paid for, why wouldn't it be acceptable?
KS grants access to stuff I like, therefore it's okay.
It could be a Fortune 500 company with a billionaire owner, and as long as they offer something you want, they can head on over to KS and you'll front the money for them? It doesn't feel slimey or create any ethical questions in your mind?
the_Armyman wrote: It's just plain silly to borrow money when you don't need it, and in my mind, it's silly to give money to someone who doesn't need it in the hopes for a few extra baubles that you may or may not receive a couple years down the road. Thanks for the replies. We'll just have to agree to disagree
Businesses do it all the time. Many times companies can invest cash on hand in more profitable ventures. Rather than only fund one venture, they fund one with cash on hand and borrow to pay for the other. The riskier, but higher return venture takes the cash, while the less risky one gets the loan as it is more likely to generate revenue to pay back the loan.
Though I don't see this being the case for PP. I suspect is simply a cash grab to maximize profits by bypassing retailers.
@the_armyman - for me, the issue isn't really how much money they have; it's why such a company or individual would go the kickstarter route.
It just doesn't make sense to have to put your project on hold while you look for funding for it, when the amount of funding you could potentially get is tiny compared to your wealth. I mean, kickstarter in its entire history has funded less money than Apple maikes in a quarter (in profit), so it just doesn't make sense, since time is almost always of the essence.
For Games Workshop, it's a little different. A million bucks is still significant to them, and a lot of their releases are not multimillion dollar super-hits. We're still a pretty small niche, and even the biggest fish in the pond isn't really a huge company. More importantly, like insaniak said, GW is plagued with never knowing how much stuff to make. Make too much, and they're doomed to fire sale it later on in some crazy priced bundle; make too little, and people scream murder that they're incompetent. There also aren't many huge trade secrets. Like, "New Space Marine versus Eldar boardgame!" is not something that someone else is going to run with and steal your idea; as opposed to a company like Apple, whose top secret pipeline is very important to keep a secret.
On the other hand, I would hope that if it were a company the size of Games Workshop (where the money isn't the only driver, and where they are pretty experienced at estimating project costs), they would have some type of risk-free guarantee to the person making the pledge, and also make clear to people why they're using Kickstarter. It's implied, anyhow, because if a company like PP or GW failed at a KS project, it would be a terrible PR nightmare for them, potentially causing them to lose customers of far greater value than the KS project.
I do, however, understand where you're coming from. The whole idea of Kickstarter is for the community to help fund projects that otherwise wouldn't be able to be realized -- often by artist-types or DIY engineer/inventor types; and by giving money to a company that doesn't really need it, you're taking away from the money that could potentially be used to fund a project that couldn't otherwise continue. It's a slightly flawed logic, though: just because I gave money to company A doesn't mean I can't also give money to company B; and just because I don't give money to company A doesn't mean that I am going to look harder to give money to company B. Mostly, because the amounts of money we're talking about usually aren't huge, from an individual perspective.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/21 06:24:56
Talys wrote: The whole idea of Kickstarter is for the community to help fund projects that otherwise wouldn't be able to be realized -- often by artist-types or DIY engineer/inventor types
Sure. And the whole idea of eBay is for regular people to sell stuff they don't want anymore.
Or, at least, it used to be. The platform has gradually evolved into something quite different, because money.
Since I didn't see any of this when I skimmed the last couple of pages here is what PP themselves had to say about their use of KS in the latest No Quarter.
This February 16th, Widower’s Wood will become the first
board game Privateer Press ever crowdfunds—a big first
after fifteen years of producing great games. After careful
consideration and great discussion, we concluded Kickstarter
was the best choice because it would give us the opportunity
to raise awareness for our board games and hopefully
reach more gamers than we’ve been able to previously with
traditional marketing.
Kickstarter is unique because it will let us accurately gauge
our audience’s interest in a project. This means we can pack
our board games with every last thing we know gamers
want, without the risks associated with traditional publishing
methods. While we have no intentions or plans to use
Kickstarter for our miniatures wargames, our drive to create
new games and load them with extra content is something we
can’t contain. We can’t wait to use Kickstarter as a platform to
bring this project to life.
In short, we picked Kickstarter because it gives us a chance
to give our gamers what they want: tons of extra miniatures,
extra scenarios, extra tiles, extra everything!
And boy, do we have some extras in the works.
More reading for those interested about the actual rewards structure.
Spoiler:
Rewards!
Backers, or people who support our Kickstarter project, will
have their choice of three ways to pledge for Widower’s Wood:
Core Game, Deluxe Edition, or Premium Collector’s Edition.
These three rewards give you a variety of ways to support the
project and get exactly what you want for your gaming needs.
At the base level, there is the Widower’s Wood Core Game
reward. This is the game as it will be available to everyone in
the second half of 2016. It’s the simple, no-frills version of the
game. But if you’re looking to Kickstarter for extras, the next
two rewards are going to have your attention.
If you opt for the Widower’s Wood Deluxe Edition, you’ll
get the core game, the Dead Men Walking expansion—which
includes content for both Widower’s Wood and The Undercity—
and most importantly, all the extra stretch goal content
that’s unlocked during the campaign. Many of these stretch
goal extras will be Kickstarter Exclusives that will never be
available again! While we can’t yet reveal what these items
will be, we can say they will include dozens of miniatures,
extra tiles, extra missions, extra heroes, and a ton of amazing
stuff that will make Widower’s Wood a game you can play
for years to come. This extra content will be revealed as the
campaign meets its stretch goals.
The last of our three rewards is for the ultimate collector,
the gamer who needs to have not just everything for the
game but also a way to display it with pride. The Widower’s
Wood Premium Collector’s Edition comes with everything
in the Deluxe Edition (the core game, the Dead Men Walking
expansion, and all the stretch goal content) housed within
a specially designed luxurious case with a set of beautiful
Q-Workshop dice. We are hard at work on a truly unique box
set with internal trays to hold all the contents of Widower’s
Wood, the Dead Men Walking expansion, and all of the stretch
goal extras. We’re aiming for it to look like we skinned a bull
snapper to complete the look.
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
Talys wrote: In my opinion, it wouldn't be a bad thing for GW to engage in a Kickstarter type of prepaid deal, but not for cash reasons. GW could actually do it much more intelligently: Here is our planned products and stretch goals; this is the price if you buy into it now. We guarantee you will get X at Y dollar investment, or your money back.
Like you said, they'd be able to avoid epic failures in over and underproduction, but also gauge how much interest there is for the product line in general. And it would build up excitement for a product line.
An idea that predates Kickstarter by decades (Eureka MIniatures had their "300 club" range for ages - once 300 units are pre-sold, they go into production), and is still a viable idea. That's how North Star funded Frostgrave, as far as I remember.
Talys wrote: The whole idea of Kickstarter is for the community to help fund projects that otherwise wouldn't be able to be realized
And this is true regardless of the money whoever does have.
Kickstarter does allow people with no capital to realize their ideas, but it also allows traditional companies to try things they would not normally do because they would not want to commit to the risk of trying something so out of their comfort zone.
I see nothing wrong with PP doing this and I do not care about their product, so I cannot be chunked in the "I want it so I do not care" category.
They want to breach to the boardgaming scene, they have several unsuccessful attempts, they try kickstarter to gauge interest and not endanger their core company which is good for their consumers really.
I would not they do not kickstart their omega protocol line new game, they know they did that right, they kickstart their "rpg/ dungeon crawl" line who they did not do well.
And as a consumer one can potentially influence their creation with the comments.
jonolikespie wrote: Since I didn't see any of this when I skimmed the last couple of pages here is what PP themselves had to say about their use of KS in the latest No Quarter.
Spoiler:
This February 16th, Widower’s Wood will become the first
board game Privateer Press ever crowdfunds—a big first
after fifteen years of producing great games. After careful
consideration and great discussion, we concluded Kickstarter
was the best choice because it would give us the opportunity
to raise awareness for our board games and hopefully
reach more gamers than we’ve been able to previously with
traditional marketing.
Kickstarter is unique because it will let us accurately gauge
our audience’s interest in a project. This means we can pack
our board games with every last thing we know gamers
want, without the risks associated with traditional publishing
methods. While we have no intentions or plans to use
Kickstarter for our miniatures wargames, our drive to create
new games and load them with extra content is something we
can’t contain. We can’t wait to use Kickstarter as a platform to
bring this project to life.
In short, we picked Kickstarter because it gives us a chance
to give our gamers what they want: tons of extra miniatures,
extra scenarios, extra tiles, extra everything!
And boy, do we have some extras in the works.
More reading for those interested about the actual rewards structure.
[spoiler]
Rewards!
Backers, or people who support our Kickstarter project, will
have their choice of three ways to pledge for Widower’s Wood:
Core Game, Deluxe Edition, or Premium Collector’s Edition.
These three rewards give you a variety of ways to support the
project and get exactly what you want for your gaming needs.
At the base level, there is the Widower’s Wood Core Game
reward. This is the game as it will be available to everyone in
the second half of 2016. It’s the simple, no-frills version of the
game. But if you’re looking to Kickstarter for extras, the next
two rewards are going to have your attention.
If you opt for the Widower’s Wood Deluxe Edition, you’ll
get the core game, the Dead Men Walking expansion—which
includes content for both Widower’s Wood and The Undercity—
and most importantly, all the extra stretch goal content
that’s unlocked during the campaign. Many of these stretch
goal extras will be Kickstarter Exclusives that will never be
available again! While we can’t yet reveal what these items
will be, we can say they will include dozens of miniatures,
extra tiles, extra missions, extra heroes, and a ton of amazing
stuff that will make Widower’s Wood a game you can play
for years to come. This extra content will be revealed as the
campaign meets its stretch goals.
The last of our three rewards is for the ultimate collector,
the gamer who needs to have not just everything for the
game but also a way to display it with pride. The Widower’s
Wood Premium Collector’s Edition comes with everything
in the Deluxe Edition (the core game, the Dead Men Walking
expansion, and all the stretch goal content) housed within
a specially designed luxurious case with a set of beautiful
Q-Workshop dice. We are hard at work on a truly unique box
set with internal trays to hold all the contents of Widower’s
Wood, the Dead Men Walking expansion, and all of the stretch
goal extras. We’re aiming for it to look like we skinned a bull
snapper to complete the look.
[/spoiler]
Sigh they could be a bit more humble and not overhype what they try to do, they come as arrogant.
The board game market has probably become so heavily intertwined with Kickstarter, that unless you are one one of the established companies like Fantasy Flight, you need some discounted stretch goal infused product to get your foot in the door.
I'm all for companies using Kickstarter to make a product happen that wouldn't otherwise. Still...I think It has a some bad consequences for gamer and game companies.
First, gamers come to expect a certain value for their money that effectively locks companies into Kickstarter to have enough sure fire capital along with manageable risk.
It also creates a false economy on Kickstarter when you have established companies like Privateer asking for money along side some dude with zero experience working out of his garage. It brings PP down a little, and the random dude up a lot. Caveat emptor, but unlike real investing were there are regulations, reporting laws, and accountability, it's still the wild west for backers. We all know who PP is, but to the audience you get on Kickstarter, they couldn't tell Privateer from Palladium. Or Defiance.
Finally, Kickstarters fail in public. Palladium, Battlefront, and Dust Studios all did irrevocable damage to their brands by mismanaging their Kickstarters. Contract disputes and cost overruns are pretty common except when you have thousands of people that put down money in advance. In a niche market you can't afford to disappoint that many people. If 5000 people tell their 5 friends and then they each tell 5 more friends, suddenly no one at Gencon is going to buy your stuff anymore.
jonolikespie wrote: Since I didn't see any of this when I skimmed the last couple of pages here is what PP themselves had to say about their use of KS in the latest No Quarter.
Spoiler:
This February 16th, Widower’s Wood will become the first
board game Privateer Press ever crowdfunds—a big first
after fifteen years of producing great games. After careful
consideration and great discussion, we concluded Kickstarter
was the best choice because it would give us the opportunity
to raise awareness for our board games and hopefully
reach more gamers than we’ve been able to previously with
traditional marketing.
Kickstarter is unique because it will let us accurately gauge
our audience’s interest in a project. This means we can pack
our board games with every last thing we know gamers
want, without the risks associated with traditional publishing
methods. While we have no intentions or plans to use
Kickstarter for our miniatures wargames, our drive to create
new games and load them with extra content is something we
can’t contain. We can’t wait to use Kickstarter as a platform to
bring this project to life.
In short, we picked Kickstarter because it gives us a chance
to give our gamers what they want: tons of extra miniatures,
extra scenarios, extra tiles, extra everything!
And boy, do we have some extras in the works.
More reading for those interested about the actual rewards structure.
[spoiler]
Rewards!
Backers, or people who support our Kickstarter project, will
have their choice of three ways to pledge for Widower’s Wood:
Core Game, Deluxe Edition, or Premium Collector’s Edition.
These three rewards give you a variety of ways to support the
project and get exactly what you want for your gaming needs.
At the base level, there is the Widower’s Wood Core Game
reward. This is the game as it will be available to everyone in
the second half of 2016. It’s the simple, no-frills version of the
game. But if you’re looking to Kickstarter for extras, the next
two rewards are going to have your attention.
If you opt for the Widower’s Wood Deluxe Edition, you’ll
get the core game, the Dead Men Walking expansion—which
includes content for both Widower’s Wood and The Undercity—
and most importantly, all the extra stretch goal content
that’s unlocked during the campaign. Many of these stretch
goal extras will be Kickstarter Exclusives that will never be
available again! While we can’t yet reveal what these items
will be, we can say they will include dozens of miniatures,
extra tiles, extra missions, extra heroes, and a ton of amazing
stuff that will make Widower’s Wood a game you can play
for years to come. This extra content will be revealed as the
campaign meets its stretch goals.
The last of our three rewards is for the ultimate collector,
the gamer who needs to have not just everything for the
game but also a way to display it with pride. The Widower’s
Wood Premium Collector’s Edition comes with everything
in the Deluxe Edition (the core game, the Dead Men Walking
expansion, and all the stretch goal content) housed within
a specially designed luxurious case with a set of beautiful
Q-Workshop dice. We are hard at work on a truly unique box
set with internal trays to hold all the contents of Widower’s
Wood, the Dead Men Walking expansion, and all of the stretch
goal extras. We’re aiming for it to look like we skinned a bull
snapper to complete the look.
[/spoiler]
Sigh they could be a bit more humble and not overhype what they try to do, they come as arrogant.
It's almost like they are trying to generate excitement for a new product
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.
This is how I view KickStarter. Maybe you don't. This is why established companies using it as a platform for capital bothers me.
Pledge: $5
Reward: Good feels.
Situation #1: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Dirty clothes, unkempt hair, obviously down on his luck. Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Homeless guy ecstatic. Runs across the street and buys a package of hot dogs and a gallon of water. Yeah, the feels!
Situation #2: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Guy is dressed a lot like me and appears pretty clean cut. Maybe having a rough time? Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Stands up, walks across the street to Starbuck's, and buys a Vente decaf latte with extra foam. Um, feels?
Situation #3: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Three-piece suit, on his iPhone, talking to his assistant. Um, okay? Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Stands up, puts the fiver in his stacked billfold, points his key fob at a Beamer that chirps obediently, and gets in while still talking on his phone, never even bothering to say thanks. FEELS PLOX?!
jonolikespie wrote: Since I didn't see any of this when I skimmed the last couple of pages here is what PP themselves had to say about their use of KS in the latest No Quarter.
Spoiler:
This February 16th, Widower’s Wood will become the first
board game Privateer Press ever crowdfunds—a big first
after fifteen years of producing great games. After careful
consideration and great discussion, we concluded Kickstarter
was the best choice because it would give us the opportunity
to raise awareness for our board games and hopefully
reach more gamers than we’ve been able to previously with
traditional marketing.
Kickstarter is unique because it will let us accurately gauge
our audience’s interest in a project. This means we can pack
our board games with every last thing we know gamers
want, without the risks associated with traditional publishing
methods. While we have no intentions or plans to use
Kickstarter for our miniatures wargames, our drive to create
new games and load them with extra content is something we
can’t contain. We can’t wait to use Kickstarter as a platform to
bring this project to life.
In short, we picked Kickstarter because it gives us a chance
to give our gamers what they want: tons of extra miniatures,
extra scenarios, extra tiles, extra everything!
And boy, do we have some extras in the works.
More reading for those interested about the actual rewards structure.
[spoiler]
Rewards!
Backers, or people who support our Kickstarter project, will
have their choice of three ways to pledge for Widower’s Wood:
Core Game, Deluxe Edition, or Premium Collector’s Edition.
These three rewards give you a variety of ways to support the
project and get exactly what you want for your gaming needs.
At the base level, there is the Widower’s Wood Core Game
reward. This is the game as it will be available to everyone in
the second half of 2016. It’s the simple, no-frills version of the
game. But if you’re looking to Kickstarter for extras, the next
two rewards are going to have your attention.
If you opt for the Widower’s Wood Deluxe Edition, you’ll
get the core game, the Dead Men Walking expansion—which
includes content for both Widower’s Wood and The Undercity—
and most importantly, all the extra stretch goal content
that’s unlocked during the campaign. Many of these stretch
goal extras will be Kickstarter Exclusives that will never be
available again! While we can’t yet reveal what these items
will be, we can say they will include dozens of miniatures,
extra tiles, extra missions, extra heroes, and a ton of amazing
stuff that will make Widower’s Wood a game you can play
for years to come. This extra content will be revealed as the
campaign meets its stretch goals.
The last of our three rewards is for the ultimate collector,
the gamer who needs to have not just everything for the
game but also a way to display it with pride. The Widower’s
Wood Premium Collector’s Edition comes with everything
in the Deluxe Edition (the core game, the Dead Men Walking
expansion, and all the stretch goal content) housed within
a specially designed luxurious case with a set of beautiful
Q-Workshop dice. We are hard at work on a truly unique box
set with internal trays to hold all the contents of Widower’s
Wood, the Dead Men Walking expansion, and all of the stretch
goal extras. We’re aiming for it to look like we skinned a bull
snapper to complete the look.
[/spoiler]
Sigh they could be a bit more humble and not overhype what they try to do, they come as arrogant.
It's almost like they are trying to generate excitement for a new product
the_Armyman wrote: This is how I view KickStarter. Maybe you don't. This is why established companies using it as a platform for capital bothers me.
Pledge: $5
Reward: Good feels.
Situation #1: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Dirty clothes, unkempt hair, obviously down on his luck. Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Homeless guy ecstatic. Runs across the street and buys a package of hot dogs and a gallon of water. Yeah, the feels!
Situation #2: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Guy is dressed a lot like me and appears pretty clean cut. Maybe having a rough time? Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Stands up, walks across the street to Starbuck's, and buys a Vente decaf latte with extra foam. Um, feels?
Situation #3: Walking down the street, see a homeless guy with a cup sitting on the sidewalk. Three-piece suit, on his iPhone, talking to his assistant. Um, okay? Smile, drop a fiver in his cup, and wish him the best. Stands up, puts the fiver in his stacked billfold, points his key fob at a Beamer that chirps obediently, and gets in while still talking on his phone, never even bothering to say thanks. FEELS PLOX?!
#1 Legit need, #2 Mantic, #3 Privateer Press
As Talys was pointing out, PP isn't exactly a Fortune 500 here. They aren't even the biggest fish in their niche. PP are still small potatoes, and Kickstarter gives them the cash they need to create a game that might otherwise sink them if it flopped.
Do you have a problem with Reaper running kickstarters? They're quite open how they could slowly trickle out Bones releases, but they would rather kickstart to really get the line fleshed out. It's a very good comparison in my mind- PP could eventually fund this new board game themselves, but Kickstarter allows them to get it to the audience faster while also gauging interest.
In that light, do you still have a problem with this situation?
Reaper would be Situation #2. I would stilll not pledge. In the case of Bones 1, it's risk avoidance on the part of Reaper, rather than pure pre-order. Bones 2 and 3 is pre-order.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/21 14:41:03
the_Armyman wrote: Reaper would be Situation #2. I would stilll not pledge. In the case of Bones 1, it's risk avoidance on the part of Reaper, rather than pure pre-order. Bones 2 and 3 is pre-order.
Their second and third kickstarters allowed them to expand the range far more quickly than their more traditional method.
This is one of those debates that essentially turns on personal preference. When one person says "I don't like this" you can't really convince them that they should.
Now, the polite thing to do is not keep repeating how much you don't like it, either.
Polonius wrote: This is one of those debates that essentially turns on personal preference. When one person says "I don't like this" you can't really convince them that they should.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's about critically thinking through a purchase. Rewarding a behavior that doesn't pass the sniff test. Light your money on fire, flush it down a toilet, or wipe your arse with it, it's not my money. But I can still point out that I think it's foolish.
Now, the polite thing to do is not keep repeating how much you don't like it, either.
Polonius wrote: This is one of those debates that essentially turns on personal preference. When one person says "I don't like this" you can't really convince them that they should.
Perhaps. Or maybe it's about critically thinking through a purchase. Rewarding a behavior that doesn't pass the sniff test. Light your money on fire, flush it down a toilet, or wipe your arse with it, it's not my money. But I can still point out that I think it's foolish.
I think there's plenty of critical thinking in this thread. People have pointed PP's lackluster track record with board games, they've mentioned that Boardgame kickstarters can be highly successful, but require either innovation or a bunch of free stuff, and there has been some discussion on the nature of Kickstarter. At least one person has pointed out that they'd rather wait for the game to deliver, fail at retail, and be available at steep discount.
What you're doing isn't critical thinking. It's simply asserting that it's "foolish" to back a kickstarter from an established company. Which, as you put it, doesn't meet the sniff test for critical thinking. If a person wanted to ensure that the game was made, and wanted to essentially preorder, than why not back the kickstarter? The odds of it failing to deliver drop to nearly zero, and there are plenty of people with the liquidity to loan PP $100, especially if they sweeten the pot. Which, given that they did in the last Kickstarter (with KS exclusive sculpts), there could be real value in it for fanboys.
Now, the polite thing to do is not keep repeating how much you don't like it, either.
At what point does a company become too big to ethically use Kickstarter? Is it a specific amount of profit they have to make, cash on hand, or based upon amount of previous releases?
If the latter, just because a company could release a board game two years ago doesn't mean they could still afford to release another one today.
I'd imagine that finances, not ethics, would stop companies above a certain size from using Kickstarter.
Companies borrow all the time, either with preferred stock, bonds, or notes secured by assets. A company with enough value to do so would likely raise funds with those models, as they are more efficient than Kickstarter. Don't forget, that while interest free, Kickstarter has a 10% fee, and requires substantial investment of time and human resources to be successful.
And borrowing can be very wise, if you think that the return on your investment will be higher than the rate you owe on the loan.
That PP is willing to run a kickstarter shows either that they're unable to self fund or borrow the funds to produce a boardgame, they are unsure about market demand and don't want to take a risk, or it's simply a pet project.
the_Armyman wrote: So, a rhetorical question here: what if Games Workshop had started a KS for its new Specialist Games Studios and wanted to produce a board game? Would that have been okay, too?
I'd have been 100% fine with it. In fact, I think that's how they should have approached it.
At what point does a company become too big to ethically use Kickstarter? Is it a specific amount of profit they have to make, cash on hand, or based upon amount of previous releases?
If the latter, just because a company could release a board game two years ago doesn't mean they could still afford to release another one today.
Do I have to know how much money they have on hand? Are you looking for a quantifiable net profitability or a certain number of employees? Do they have to have an HR department? Those numbers aren't public knowledge for a privately held company, so I have no answer for you. It's also irrelevant to the discussion. If you're an established company with employees and product and machinery and a warehouse, I'm not inclined to give you free money. Those are my totally subjective standards.
I'm kinda getting burned out on replying to three to four people. If what I've said so far makes no sense or you're inclined to go down the road of "stop liking what I don't like," that's cool. I won't give PP my money. If you do, I think you're dumb (but no hard feelings).
What exactly is the problem with an established company using Kickstarter?
I honestly don't get it, it's not exclusively for new or independent groups/businesses.
If a company wants to attempt to crowdfund the investment in a new product directly from their fanbase why is that a bad thing? Even if there were no doubt that they could pay for it out of their own pocket right now, the people who invest in the KS know what they are doing and are doing so of their own free will... where is the problem?
Fafnir wrote: Oh, I certainly vote with my dollar, but the problem is that that is not enough. The problem with the 'vote with your dollar' response is that it doesn't take into account why we're not buying the product. I want to enjoy 40k enough to buy back in. It was my introduction to traditional games, and there was a time when I enjoyed it very much. I want to buy 40k, but Gamesworkshop is doing their very best to push me away, and simply not buying their product won't tell them that.