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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel






Yeah I was under the impression half your drop pods rounding up arrive turn one. Putting stuff inside them that rolls to deep strike turn one to cheat the other pods in feels wrong. I don't see how their deep strike permission gets around the drop pods rule that only half come in.

That Grey knight power seems like it was balanced around the danger of deep strike mishap. Landing safely between 6 or more units because the pod shunted you to a safe spot then combat squad ding and potentially casting nova cleansing flame 2-4 times is absolutely devastating.

warhammer 40k mmo. If I can drive an ork trukk into the back of a space marine dread and explode in a fireball of epic, I can die happy!

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Charistoph wrote:

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.


Then you are going directly against the rules and how the rules would have you see it. The Grey Knights in the Drop Pod are indisputably a Combined Unit so you are required to treat them as one or you are breaking the rules.

Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.


The Combined Reserve Unit rule is the only rule that comes into play here.

1) The rule requires a single Reserve Roll to be made for the combined unit.
2) The rule does not care whether the embarked unit or the transport make that roll.
3) Indisputably the Grey Knight unit has been granted a turn one reserve roll and is free to make that roll on behalf of the entire combined unit (per the Combined Reserve Unit rule)
4) The result of that roll causes the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod to arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

If the Combined Reserve Unit rule required that the roll be made by the Transport then the rule interaction would be dependent upon whether or not the Special Rule is transferred to the transport.

However, as is plainly stated in the rule, the Combined Reserve Unit accepts the roll from either the embarked unit or the transport unit or even an attached IC.

The only thing that is required of the transport for it to benefit from the turn one reserve roll is that it is forming a combined unit with a unit that makes that roll on its behalf.


This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 19:54:03


 
   
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Astonished of Heck

col_impact wrote:
Charistoph wrote:

I do not see this as a Combined unit. I see it as an Embarked unit on a Transport and the Transport controlling the arrival from Reserves.


Then you are going directly against the rules and how the rules would have you see it. The Grey Knights in the Drop Pod are indisputably a Combined Unit so you are required to treat them as one or you are breaking the rules.

Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.


The Combined Reserve Unit rule is the only rule that comes into play here.

1) The rule requires a single Reserve Roll to be made for the combined unit.
2) The rule does not care whether the embarked unit or the transport make that roll.
3) Indisputably the Grey Knight unit has been granted a turn one reserve roll and is free to make that roll on behalf of the entire combined unit (per the Combined Reserve Unit rule)
4) The result of that roll causes the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod to arrive together from Deep Strike Reserve.

If the Combined Reserve Unit rule required that the roll be made by the Transport then the rule interaction would be dependent upon whether or not the Special Rule is transferred to the transport.

However, as is plainly stated in the rule, the Combined Reserve Unit accepts the roll from either the embarked unit or the transport unit or even an attached IC.

The only thing that is required of the transport for it to benefit from the turn one reserve roll is that it is forming a combined unit with a unit that makes that roll on its behalf.

So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Swampmist wrote:
Actually, you can influence deployment. Dont have rulebook for a few mins still, but if Im not mistaken Infiltrate actually does confer to the vehicle if the unit inside has it, so that may muddy the waters on this one.

I noted that there are exceptions and they are explicit when they apply. This actually provides precedence for the Drop Pod to ignore rules owned by the Embarked that do not address the Transport.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 20:44:48


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Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.


You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 20:52:56


 
   
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Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.


There's no need. That's like saying "Show me sky without stars, except for the part where there are stars. You can't, so therefore, there are no stars."

You only need the one rule to allow this to work. You don't need an additional rule specifying that one unit's rules take precedence over another when that's not the case. I can't show you a rule that doesn't exist. There doesn't need to be any other rules associated with it, because that's the rule. Nothing about the rules needs to know the status of the unit embarked, because there is no rule asking for the status of the embarked unit. A Combined Unit isn't a unit either, it's just the name associated with the status of having two or more units whose entry from reserves is tied together. The problem may be that you're thinking of this as a single object, when in fact it's THREE. There's the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, and the Combined Unit. That's what "and/or" means. It's either Option A, Option B, or Option A&B. The Combined Unit rules state that we can roll for the Drop Pod, the Grey Knights, or for the Drop Pod & Grey Knights, and a successful roll for any of these means that the entire combined unit arrives. Now, the Drop Pod can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. The combined unit of Drop Pod & Grey Knights ALSO can't make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. But the Grey Knights by themselves do indeed have a rule allowing them to make a Reserve Roll on Turn 1. As soon as they pass that, the Combined Unit rule jumps in and requires that both they and the Drop Pod now deploy via Deep Strike. This is the rule that takes precedence.

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col_impact wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

You are correct that they do not care about those questions, as they do not address them. As they do not address them, they are still in force.

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Charistoph wrote:
col_impact wrote:
Charistoph wrote:
So aside from rolling for Reserves at the same time, what other rules are associated with it? What rule says the Embarked unit's rules can take precedence? What rule eliminates the status of Embarked for the unit?

Answer these questions.

You are bringing up issues that the rules don't care about. The rule interaction is not dependent on answers to any of those questions.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll which are normally given out starting on turn two.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll and per the Combined Unit rule that reserve roll can benefit members of the Combined Unit. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined unit.

You will be required to prove that the transport is somehow not part of the Combined Unit which you cannot since it is by definition.

You are correct that they do not care about those questions, as they do not address them. As they do not address them, they are still in force.


You have failed to show anything preventing my clear line of permission. The Drop Pod only requires a reserve roll. The Grey Knight unit provides one per the Combined Unit rule. The Drop Pod then does what Drop Pods do and arrives along with the Grey Knight unit from Deep Strike Reserves, facing no restrictions.

My argument wins unless you show the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit.
   
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Gotta agree with col_impact, the rules tell you what to roll for and that the combined unit is bound by the result. You're allowed to roll for reserves for the GKs on turn 1, there's nothing that removes this permission, and the result of the roll is applied to the combined unit.

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Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:14:07


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As has been explained, the only reason the Drop Pod normally isn't allowed to Deep Strike turn 1 (outside of Drop Pod Assault, obviously) is because it's not allowed to make a reserve roll turn 1. The Grey Knights are, though, and the combined unit uses the result of whichever part of it you roll for, which in this example is the Grey Knights. The Drop Pod never gains the special rule, but it doesn't have to, because the result of the special rule is applied to the combined unit.

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Buffalo, NY

So when do you normally roll for drop pods?

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 EnTyme wrote:
Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.


The only thing preventing the Drop Pod (or anything) from arriving turn one from reserves is the lack of a reserve roll as those rolls are normally handed out starting turn two. The Grey Knight unit provides that reserve roll for the Combined Unit on turn one. If the reserve roll is made the Drop Pod then arrives along with the Grey Knight unit.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Happyjew wrote:
So when do you normally roll for drop pods?


All units in reserve normally receive reserve rolls starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit in the Formation receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

The Grey Knight is permitted to make the roll on behalf of the other members of the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule. The Drop Pod is a member of the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is made, the Grey Knight and the Drop Pod arrive together, facing no restrictions.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:27:09


 
   
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 EnTyme wrote:
Don't have my books with me since I'm at work, but I do remember that the Deep Strike rules do specifically state that a unit with the Deep Strike special rule does not confer this special rule on the transport they are riding in/on. A group of terminators riding in a land raider could not deep strike the land raider onto the battlefield. I see this as a precedent for this statement:

Units do not transfer their special rules to the transports they are using. The drop pod does not have a special rule that allows it to enter play in turn one, therefore unless the rule states that it applies to transports used by units in the formation, it does not.

This is definitely HIWPI, and this is, I believe, RAI.


You are mostly correct, but not entirely. Basically, the reason why Terminators don't allow Land Raiders to Deep Strike is because you cannot place the Land Raider in Deep Strike Reserves, which is where it would need to be to arrive from Deep Strike with the Terminators. If the Terminators are not in Deep Strike Reserves with the Land Raider also being in Deep Strike Reserves, then there is no way to create the Combined Unit. As such, you can only create the combined unit if both are in your normal Reserves. At that point, you can roll Reserve Rolls (normally at the start of Turn 2), but still choose either the Terminators, the Land Raider, or the Terminators & Land Raider to make the Reserve Roll for.

That's not the case here though. The Drop Pod is in Deep Strike Reserves. It can arrive via Deep Strike. It cannot roll for Reserves on Turn 1. The Grey Knights can be embarked onto the Drop Pod, which puts them into Deep Strike Reserves. They, however, CAN roll for Reserves on Turn 1. So you go to roll Reserves, and choose to make the Reserve Roll for the Grey Knights. When they come in, so too does the Drop Pod, as it has bypassed any reserve roll. It's not transferring any special rule, it's simply using the rule that most benefits you.

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the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.

In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle


in no way does the above state you get to PICK one of the units and roll using its rules for the rest to arrive.

Given the unit arriving using the rules for DS is the transport, that you would make the RAI claim you are rolling for the unit inside further makes no sense.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:33:58


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.


Actually, it EXACTLY does. That's what "and/or" means. If it was simple "and", then you'd have a valid argument that it's just 1 option for the 1 roll. Since it's "and/or" you have 3 options:

Option 1: Roll for the Transport.
Option 2: Roll for the Grey Knights
Option 3: Roll for the Transport AND Grey Knights

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 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.


Actually, it EXACTLY does. That's what "and/or" means. If it was simple "and", then you'd have a valid argument that it's just 1 option for the 1 roll. Since it's "and/or" you have 3 options:

Option 1: Roll for the Transport.
Option 2: Roll for the Grey Knights
Option 3: Roll for the Transport AND Grey Knights


those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:37:17


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.


The only thing preventing any unit from arriving from reserves on turn one is the lack of a reserve roll. Those are normally handed out on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit receives a reserve roll and is part of a Combined Unit. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to make the reserve roll on behalf of the Combined Unit. A successful reserve roll is all that is required for the Combined Unit to arrive together via Deep Strike reserves.

Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.


My argument wins out unless you can show that the Drop Pod is not part of the Combined Unit.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:41:27


 
   
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col_impact wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
the combined unit rule does not give permission to roll for one part of the unit and everything else comes.

you roll for the combined units together with 1 roll.

You do not have permission to extend the RoT to the drop pod, and you do not have permission to roll using the rules for one of the units ignoring the rules of the others. Drop pods and deep striking transports actually have to put in a rules exception to allow the transported models come in with the transport as per the DS section.

As such rolling for the DS and saying the models in the transport are using just their DS rules for the transport to arrive on the combined rule is not allowed by the rules at all. There is no permission to pick which part of the combined unit you use to roll for arrival, only that you roll for them to come in together.

so other than having no RAW to support that you can roll for the occupants of a drop pod using their special rules and then have the drop pod arrive from DS reserves, using rules it does not have.... unless you can see somewhere that it allows you to pick an unit from the combined reserves roll to arrive using only their rules this just does not work that way.


The only thing preventing any unit from arriving from reserves on turn one is the lack of a reserve roll. Those are normally handed out on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit receives a reserve roll and is part of a Combined Unit. The Combined Unit rules allow the Grey Knight unit to make the reserve roll on behalf of the Combined Unit. A successful reserve roll is all that is required for the Combined Unit to arrive together via Deep Strike reserves.

Spoiler:
Combined Reserve Units
During deployment, when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if
any of the Independent Characters in Reserve are joining a unit, in which case they must
arrive together. Similarly, you must specify if any units in Reserve are embarked upon
any Transport vehicles in Reserve, in which case they will arrive together. In either case,
when making a Reserve Roll (see below) for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the
unit and/or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.


Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.
   
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blaktoof wrote:
those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.


Unfortunately, that's not correct. That's why it has the slash ( "/" ) between Independent Character and Transport (Independent Character/Transport) is for. The only way to read it is; "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.", or "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

The first means "each together, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit", the second means "each separately, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit". That's at least 3 options (maybe more, depending on how many units are in the combined unit).

EDIT: So, to make this work, you do the "or" option, and of the Drop Pod and the Grey Knights, you choose the Grey Knights.


I agree, the RAI would definitely be that this shouldn't happen. I'm not arguing RAI though, I'm arguing RAW.

This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:46:20


 Galef wrote:
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blaktoof wrote:
Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.


Incorrect. The Grey Knight unit has a reserve roll and can take it on behalf of the Combined Unit.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves is a successful reserves roll. There is no rule that states no unit may arrive from reserves on turn 1. If they can get a reserve roll and succeed with that roll they can arrive turn 1. A reserve roll is normally hard to get before turn 2, but the Grey Knight unit can get one. And he can make that reserve roll on behalf of any Combined Unit he is in.

If the roll succeeds the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod have the successful reserve roll they need to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:50:07


 
   
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col_impact wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
Yes and you are rolling for the transport to arrive with its embarked units, unless you are placing the GK model first by following the rules for DS.

further nothing you quoted allows you to pick one of the three units in the combined unit to make the roll.


Incorrect. The Grey Knight unit has a reserve roll and can take it on behalf of the Combined Unit.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves is a successful reserves roll. There is no rule that states no unit may arrive from reserves on turn 1. If they can get a reserve roll and succeed with that roll they can arrive turn 1.

If the roll succeeds the Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod have the successful reserve roll they need to arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.


The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
those aren't options, you only do option 3. You roll for the arrival of the combined unit. However you are actually rolling for the arrival of the transport and the rest comes in. As given by following the rest of the rules as they tell you to do so by stating "as below" which have you place the first model. Hint, its not a GK infantry model.

it says and or because a combined unit can have

-the unit + IC [e.g. terminator squad with a terminator IC attached]
-the unit+ IC + transport. [e.g. drop pod with embarked squad + attached IC]

the combined roll references the possibility of different combinations of a combined unit.


Unfortunately, that's not correct. That's why it has the slash ( "/" ) between Independent Character and Transport (Independent Character/Transport) is for. The only way to read it is; "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit and its Independent Character/Transport vehicle.", or "for a combined unit, roll a single dice for the unit or its Independent Character/Transport vehicle."

The first means "each together, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit", the second means "each separately, then the result applies to each part of the combined unit". That's at least 3 options (maybe more, depending on how many units are in the combined unit).

EDIT: So, to make this work, you do the "or" option, and of the Drop Pod and the Grey Knights, you choose the Grey Knights.


I agree, the RAI would definitely be that this shouldn't happen. I'm not arguing RAI though, I'm arguing RAW.


the slash is because you are rolling for the Unit+IC or the transport with unit and IC in it.

the reason the above is not only RAW true, but RAI true, is because as you follow the rule 'as below' you place the first model which is arriving from deep strike reserves which is either the transport, OR a model in the unit+IC in the case of a combined unit that has no transport [e.g. DSing terminators+IC in terminator armor] Further the rules then later let you disembark the embarked unit...

there is no RAW support in the rules quoted that lets you roll for an embarked unit, then place their transport as the arriving unit. There is no rules statement anywhere that allows you to pick such a situation.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:51:28


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.

EDIT: Referencing the Deep Strike rules doesn't matter here, since we're not arguing about Deep Strike. We're arguing about the Reserve Roll. If passed, then you follow the Deep Strike rule for deploying it. Please stop trying to derail the conversation this way, as it really has nothing to do with what's going on. It simple is a description of what happens AFTER the Reserve Roll is succeeded. It does nothing to explain why the Reserve Roll itself can't be made.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 21:56:03


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There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 22:00:59


 
   
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 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.


There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.

This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/20 22:04:53


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.


There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.


The Drop Pod only requires a successful reserve roll to arrive from reserves on turn 1. Nothing besides the lack of a successful reserve roll prevents the Drop Pod from arriving turn 1.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll for the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule.

If the roll succeeds, the Combined unit arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.
   
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col_impact wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.


There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.


The Drop Pod only requires a successful reserve roll to arrive from reserves on turn 1. Nothing besides the lack of a successful reserve roll prevents the Drop Pod from arriving turn 1.

The Grey Knight unit provides the reserve roll for the Combined Unit per the Combined Unit rule.

If the roll succeeds, the Combined unit arrives via Deep Strike Reserve.


That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.


   
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col_impact wrote:
There is no rule preventing a Drop Pod or any unit from arriving from reserves on turn 1.

The only thing preventing the Drop Pod from arriving from reserves on turn 1 is the lack of a reserve roll. Normally those rolls are doled out starting on turn 2.

The Grey Knight unit and the Drop Pod unit form a Combined Unit.

The Grey Knight receives a reserve roll on turn 1.

Per the Combined Unit rule, the single reserve roll is made for the Combined Unit.

If the reserve roll is successful, Drop Pod and Grey Knight have permission to arrive from reserves and they arrive from Deep Strike Reserves.
This is compelling. Anyone else contest?

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blaktoof wrote:

That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.




The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

All that is required for a unit to be able to receive a Reserve Roll is that it is held in Reserves.

All that is required for any unit to be able to arrive from reserves is a successful Reserve Roll.

The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

The Combined Unit arrives from reserves if the Reserve Roll is successful.

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/20 22:35:24


 
   
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blaktoof wrote:
 Yarium wrote:
blaktoof wrote:
The rules you quoted doesn't actually say that in any form.


More like the rules and meaning behind "and/or" is in contention. The way they are read when casually going over them means "select the combined unit, and roll once for it, with the result applying to all the units that make up the combined unit". Unfortunately, the exact choice of words here means that "and/or" references the ability to choose multiple options from the components of the combined unit. 99.99% of the time, both of these ways play out the same way, but due to this kind of interaction, we have a situation where it now matters what the intended meaning behind it was. However, as written, the and/or favours being able to roll for the Grey Knights on Turn 1.


There is nothing in the rule that allows, or even contentiously allows, for you to pick one part of the combined unit to roll. It tells you to roll for the arrival of the combined unit, not pick one of the units in the combined unit roll for it and the rest automatically arrive.

There is just no RAW support for such a stance, and there is nothing contentious about it.

further looking at the whole forest instead of one tree, and following the rule as it tells you to do so has you place a model to arrive by DS that you just rolled for. IS the model you are playing a GK infantry model or a Drop Pod? That's what you just rolled for to arrive, and the rest get to arrive with it because they are either attached to the unit, or you are then later told they can do so and disembark from the transport. That you are allowed to make 1 roll instead of 2-3 rolls is all that is happening, however you are rolling for what is being placed then scattering(unless it has permission to not/modify scatter). Not for any part of the combined unit you get to choose. There is just no RAW statement that supports how you think it works.

This argument is as myopic as saying you can attach an IC with RoT to an unit of sword brethren in a land raider and have the land raider DS turn 1 without rolling because you have permission for the IC to roll for reserves. Which of course is not true or what the rules say at all, just as this argument is not true or what the rules say at all.


In English, a slash during a sentence indicates an option choice for the reader. For example: "Good luck with your new son/daughter" is NOT calling the child a "sondaughter," it's giving both options to the reader so that they may apply the relevant one. IE a woman who just found out she was having a son would read the entire sentence as: "Good luck with your new son," ignoring the "/daughter" part completely, because it wasn't selected. And/or is a common one that means the reader may choose to place the word "And" or the word "or" into the spot and continue the sentence.

Example: "Would you like a free cat and/or a free dog?" If this sentence had only "and," it would imply to the reader that they MUST take both if they take any. If it only had "or," it would imply that the reader can ONLY have one, not both. But with and/or in the sentence, the reader is given the option to take either animal alone as well as both.

GW may not have known what it was doing when it wrote the rule (extremely probable given their history,) but the way they wrote it allows you to roll for reserve for the vehicle, the nameless grunts in the unit, OR some named dude coming with them. This leads to some shenanigans:

Example: You can declare Tigurius placed into a unit of Dark Angel tacticals in standard "walk-on" reserve. When you get to turn 2, you may choose to roll for tiggy or the unit, either one will bring the rest of the unit in. If you roll for tiggy and fail, his ability to reroll reserves on units from his own detachment activates, and you may reroll.

As for the land raider statement, that would be illegal. A unit doesn't typically confer deep strike onto a transport. If you did have an IC which allowed a turn 1 reserve roll for himself joined to the unit, you could try to roll on turn 1.

As a note: this ruling is DUMB, but seems to be accurate. I totally recognize the desire to prove it false, but that single "/or" says you can do it, and nothing anywhere else actually says you can't. So you've got permission and no denial anywhere. That meets the minimum for doing it legally.

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col_impact wrote:
blaktoof wrote:

That's nice.

Show where you have permission to roll for the grey knights embarked in the transport in the combined unit, then place the drop pod, roll for scatter, etc.

You keep making this jump that because you can make 1 roll for the combined unit to arrive[ either an Unit + Attached IC, or a transport with Unit, or a transport with unit+ attached IC], that you get to pick which part of the unit is making the roll and then arrive whatever in the combined unit with the rest coming in automatically which is not actually stated anywhere or implied. Then you claim that this statement which is not written anywhere is a Rule as Written.




The Grey Knight unit is in Reserves in a Combined Unit by definition.

All that is required for a unit to be able to receive a Reserve Roll is that it is held in Reserves.

All that is required for any unit to be able to arrive from reserves is a successful Reserve Roll.

The Grey Knight receives a Reserve Roll on turn one.

The Grey Knight makes the Reserve Roll for the Combined Unit, per the Combined Unit rules.

The Combined Unit arrives from reserves if the Reserve Roll is successful.


being able to roll for part of a thing =/= being able to roll for all of the thing. There is no permission to roll for the combined unit to arrive based solely on the rules for a part of it.

If such were the case you could attach an IC with RoT to any unit and have them arrive turn 1 because the IC has permission to arrive turn 1 if it were separately allowed to roll to come on. Again what you propose is not at all what the rules say or imply. Further the embarked unit is not being placed and rolling for scatter, the transport is, which is what you are rolling for arrival from DS reserves for in the combined roll.
   
 
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