Are Warp Talons really that bad?

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**Martel732**

Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

**jade_angel**

Sure, but the point was they still suck less than Warp Talons. (And for that matter, BA ASM are still better than Raptors - at least they have ATSKNF and Furious Charge!)

That said, I kinda thought the gist of the thread was more about what you could conceivably do with them (and that's where Raptors came in - they're pretty much just better than Talons in most cases).

**Dozer Blades**

I've had my share of success with Talons in my KDK army... You just has to be smart about it. That's all.

**JamesY**

Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

**Slayer-Fan123**

How did you get three Plasma Pistols in the squad?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dozer Blades wrote:
I've had my share of success with Talons in my KDK army... You just has to be smart about it. That's all.

Hey look, it's the L2P argument creeping its way into the thread once more!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Really though, if you wanna use the Warp Talon models, just say they're Raptors and differentiate the Special Weapon ones with some molten breath or something. There's no excuse to use the rules quite frankly.

**ionusx**

their a melee centered unit in a BRB that gaks all over cc unless yourloaded with a silly gimmick like skyhammer. so thats mainly why

**KharnsRightHand**

I have a small squad of Warp Talons for my Daemonkin for Heldrake/Raptor tax in the Blood Host Detachment. I rarely get any good use out of them (though they did blind a Dreadknight once, then promptly died). This weekend though I'm playing 1000 pts against a Necron player. He's kinda new, and doesn't have a Decurion yet, so I'm thinking about taking my Warp Talons and using Bloodletters to call them in and eliminate their scatter. After all, Warriors are I2. Is it list tailoring? Yea, it is. Do I expect it to work outside of this game? Not really. Gonna give it a shot though since I won the models, and it was either the Talons or Melta Raptors, and I have a Soul Grinder to back them up anyway.

**JamesY**

@ slayer-fan123 whoops, posting whilst working and not paying full attention, meant A plasma pistol for three high st low ap shots.

**Martel732**

JamesY wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

How much is that squad, though?

**JamesY**

Martel732 wrote:
JamesY wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Raptors. You guys are so cute. They like BA ASM. Which means they are horrible.

Raptors with MoN, two melta guns and three plasma pistols can do a surprising about of damage. I have an unbound raptor cult, and, although I wouldn't claim it is competitive, it doesn't fair too badly in games, I'd I've won about 50% of the games I've played with them.

How much is that squad, though?

In a 1k list I have that unit three times, (5 man) another with 2 flamers, a heldrake and a winged dp. Like I said I'm not claiming that they are amazing, but they can drop in and pop mcs or tanks quite nicely, so I disagree that they are horrible. It's a fun army to play with, but only 22 models, so there has been a very short game in the past.

**Drasius**

koooaei wrote:
Wait, they're not getting fearless in kdk? I've been cheated!
Anywayz, biker shredding still remains the same.

No, all deamon units in daemonkin should be fearless instead of having instability, this should carry over to 'Talons since they've got the same daemon rule as stuff like bloodletters in the KDK book.

Which mainly came about because you can't join mortal units to daemons normally due to instability, which would make the entire codex a shambles, so I'm fairly sure that they're fearless.

And yes, they remain a minor annoyance to bikes if they manage to survive the grav gun fire and striking last while the heldrake you could've taken would eliminate them much more easily, especially since people tend not to take much anti air anymore and CSM (and therefore heldrakes) aren't a concern when list-building.

**koooaei**

Roknar wrote:
...

Bingo

**Jancoran**

TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Their advantages are hard to express. I wrote up an article on using them for those who want to give it a go a while back: http://40kunorthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/01/warp-talons.html

The Warp Talons are extremely good at their job, but it's getting them into position long enough that presents the issue. Their price needs to come down a bit, commensurate with their ability to actually deliver the blow they promise.

The idea is to blind everyone around them so that the enemy has but two choices: snap fire into them (which is a pretty solid defense) or charge them at WS 1 (which they are completely fine with).

So from the perspective of how they are meant to work, they are REALLY nasty against Necrons and Orks (and some Tau empire units, although Blacksun Filters to protect against this) as well as any low INIT force. Their weapons are more than deadly enough to take on multiple units if they choose and they ARE daemons so the invulnerable save helps.

If they want the Warp Talons to work AS IS, then they need to give the Chaos Marines a way to drop enemy initiative or perhaps just allow a less problematic deep strike. Any Psyker power or ability that does that will make Warp Talons quite a bit better. Problematically, armies you will see at top tables will likely be posessed of excellent or at minimum pretty decent init. Not all, but a lot. And so the Warp Talons are quite good but the WAY they were envisioned to work just isnt reliable against some of the scarier forces often enough.

Still, there are ways to make it work. Read that article and it may give you some ideas.

**Drasius**

Roknar wrote:
That's not entirely true imho. Both camps usually agree that they are bottom of the barrel. But it seems to me that the competitive pack always assume that competitive value is all that matters. And moreso, that in a casual game you may as well play with a painted rock, because it's just for fun anyway. Win or loose...same thing. The other camp tries to find way to make them work somewhat in games where you want to take X unit for whatever reason, because playing casual lists doesn't mean you don't care about winning.

Every time there is is a thread inquiring about a bad unit, everybody immediately suggests not taking it and more often than not suggests plague marines, without exploring how you could possibly make it work. Which is good from a competitive angle. But what if you want to still win and you want to take X unit? I for one have a certain vision in mind when composing armies. Like, say I want to play Black Legion. To me that means lots of marines, termies and chosen. Termies and chosen being the posterchild bad-asses from a fluff perspective. And I don't much care about nurgle and slaanesh. I don't care if the rules are better, I don't want any of those units. If anything then I'll take khorne or tzeentch. And then there are units like the hellturkey, which can die in a fire for all I care. It took me months just to warm up to the maulerfiend, but I still won't even consider taking a forgefiend.

So, in a sense, the codex offers a whole lot less choice for that particular army. And, in my case I don't like taking allies either. So for that example Black Legion list its unmarked power armour or bust. Now I also don't want to run an all basic marine list, which might still be fun. But then I'm going in KNOWING I'm going to loose. Which is totally ok as long as your having fun. But while that black legion list will probably not be competitive in any way, I still want to win with it. And then it doesn't help me one bit to know that every other unit would be better, I need to know how to make what I have work.

If I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, then I want to know how I could possibly make them work. In that case taking them isn't a choice, they are already part of the army. So where do I take it form there? What mechanics help overcome the whole grenade thing for instance? All while knowing full well that they suck and more importantly WHY they suck. That way, I can know what I'm about to get myself into and decide whether or not to go through with it. I'm fine with loosing a game if it was a close call for example.

Of course that's all good only so long as both players have similar expectations about the game. If I brought a thousand son list to a game against a competitive player..even against csm, chances are it would get pretty ugly pretty fast lol. But yea, the competitive bunch seems to paint an image where taking things like warp talons is akin to an automatic loss, while the other guys are trying to show that isn't necessarily the case. I don't think anybody is actually saying that warp talons are going to win you games.

Sort of.

The question for this thread is "Are Warp Talons really that bad?". The answer is Yes, yes they are. Same for muties, same for possessed. If the question was "I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, ... I want to know how I could possibly make them work?" then that's an entirely different matter. I'd wager that if you made a thread asking about how to get the most out of talons (fairly sure this has been done before) you get a thread with suggestions on how to make it happen, though half the responses would inevitably be "leave them on the shelf" unless you made a point to make it very clear that the list must absolutely include them. Most suggestions would inevitably revolve around Belakor as an HQ, min cultists and then a bunch of daemons with icons and a small unit of screamers with a grimoure herald. The screamers can get their 2+ re-roll from belakor via shrouding while using grimoure on the Tzeentch marked talons. A big Drone bus with nurgle herald and nurgle talons could probably also work, crushers with an icon would be handy for khornate talons and a slaaneshi herald hoping for cursed earth in a block of seekers could be OK too if you wanted I5 talons.

Discussion on if a unit is good or bad is meant from an objective point of view to determine their uses with no bias for or against a unit. I for one would never use mutilators simply because of their terrible, terrible models, so even if they were the best thing ever, they wouldn't get a look in. If another unit does the same job better and/or for less points and you don't have a bias against them, then why not take them instead and make your list stronger?

I have taken TSons to a tourney and managed to go 2/3 and finish in the top half of a 87 player field (just), Yeah, they're pretty bad, but much like you said, there are ways to build a list around them so they suck less. If a thread came up asking if they're really that bad though? Yes, yes they are, but I love them anyway.

**Jancoran**

Drasius wrote:
Roknar wrote:
That's not entirely true imho. Both camps usually agree that they are bottom of the barrel. But it seems to me that the competitive pack always assume that competitive value is all that matters. And moreso, that in a casual game you may as well play with a painted rock, because it's just for fun anyway. Win or loose...same thing. The other camp tries to find way to make them work somewhat in games where you want to take X unit for whatever reason, because playing casual lists doesn't mean you don't care about winning.

Every time there is is a thread inquiring about a bad unit, everybody immediately suggests not taking it and more often than not suggests plague marines, without exploring how you could possibly make it work. Which is good from a competitive angle. But what if you want to still win and you want to take X unit? I for one have a certain vision in mind when composing armies. Like, say I want to play Black Legion. To me that means lots of marines, termies and chosen. Termies and chosen being the posterchild bad-asses from a fluff perspective. And I don't much care about nurgle and slaanesh. I don't care if the rules are better, I don't want any of those units. If anything then I'll take khorne or tzeentch. And then there are units like the hellturkey, which can die in a fire for all I care. It took me months just to warm up to the maulerfiend, but I still won't even consider taking a forgefiend.

So, in a sense, the codex offers a whole lot less choice for that particular army. And, in my case I don't like taking allies either. So for that example Black Legion list its unmarked power armour or bust. Now I also don't want to run an all basic marine list, which might still be fun. But then I'm going in KNOWING I'm going to loose. Which is totally ok as long as your having fun. But while that black legion list will probably not be competitive in any way, I still want to win with it. And then it doesn't help me one bit to know that every other unit would be better, I need to know how to make what I have work.

If I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, then I want to know how I could possibly make them work. In that case taking them isn't a choice, they are already part of the army. So where do I take it form there? What mechanics help overcome the whole grenade thing for instance? All while knowing full well that they suck and more importantly WHY they suck. That way, I can know what I'm about to get myself into and decide whether or not to go through with it. I'm fine with loosing a game if it was a close call for example.

Of course that's all good only so long as both players have similar expectations about the game. If I brought a thousand son list to a game against a competitive player..even against csm, chances are it would get pretty ugly pretty fast lol. But yea, the competitive bunch seems to paint an image where taking things like warp talons is akin to an automatic loss, while the other guys are trying to show that isn't necessarily the case. I don't think anybody is actually saying that warp talons are going to win you games.

Sort of.

The question for this thread is "Are Warp Talons really that bad?". The answer is Yes, yes they are. Same for muties, same for possessed. If the question was "I want to take warp talons because I think the models are kick ass, ... I want to know how I could possibly make them work?" then that's an entirely different matter. I'd wager that if you made a thread asking about how to get the most out of talons (fairly sure this has been done before) you get a thread with suggestions on how to make it happen, though half the responses would inevitably be "leave them on the shelf" unless you made a point to make it very clear that the list must absolutely include them. Most suggestions would inevitably revolve around Belakor as an HQ, min cultists and then a bunch of daemons with icons and a small unit of screamers with a grimoure herald. The screamers can get their 2+ re-roll from belakor via shrouding while using grimoure on the Tzeentch marked talons. A big Drone bus with nurgle herald and nurgle talons could probably also work, crushers with an icon would be handy for khornate talons and a slaaneshi herald hoping for cursed earth in a block of seekers could be OK too if you wanted I5 talons.

Discussion on if a unit is good or bad is meant from an objective point of view to determine their uses with no bias for or against a unit. I for one would never use mutilators simply because of their terrible, terrible models, so even if they were the best thing ever, they wouldn't get a look in. If another unit does the same job better and/or for less points and you don't have a bias against them, then why not take them instead and make your list stronger?

I have taken TSons to a tourney and managed to go 2/3 and finish in the top half of a 87 player field (just), Yeah, they're pretty bad, but much like you said, there are ways to build a list around them so they suck less. If a thread came up asking if they're really that bad though? Yes, yes they are, but I love them anyway.

Theres an entire thread where I disagree with you on Mutilators, as do others. So I'd say that's not a given. But Warp Talons are difficult to use, but especially effective against some armies. If you know you'e going against one of those armies, they certainly will give you a boost. if you're not...

**Martel732**

Mutilators at least have good durability. Warp talons... not so much. Lacking durability is one of the cardinal sins of 7th ed, because durability WILL be tested.

**HoundsofDemos**

for 10 more points you can take a heldrake which kills the same target MEQ. That alone makes them bad from a purely gaming stand point. It's a shame they are beautiful models

**Jancoran**

HoundsofDemos wrote:
for 10 more points you can take a heldrake which kills the same target MEQ. That alone makes them bad from a purely gaming stand point. It's a shame they are beautiful models

So is a Heldrake to be fair. =)

I'd rather have a Heldrake in most cases than Warp Talons. Competing slot mates is a tougher thing to overcome. Given that Fast Attack isn't a weak area for Chaos (Elites are the weakest) its pretty tough to pass up that Heldrake. You need a specific strategy for the Warp Talons to make more sense. I can see possibilities for them but in the end I am definitely taking a Heldrake BEFORE Warp Talons most of the time.

**Spyro_Killer**

If they could assault out of deepstrike they'd still cost too much, that alone says how bad they are. If they could drop and hit a devastator squad then bam they get their points back but in the turn you have to wait to assault you get smoked

**koooaei**

They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

**Slayer-Fan123**

koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

**Alcibiades**

And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Alcibiades wrote:
And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

Doesn't answer the question. If you have actual thoughts for the topic, say them.

**JamesY**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

**Slayer-Fan123**

JamesY wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

You pay for Marks instead of getting Chapter Tactics. MoK can be equivalent of Ultramarine rerolls, in example. The inherent 5++ only comes in handy against non AP2-3 when you use Iron Hands. When outfitted, paying for Marks is completely inferior to Chapter Tactics. MoS is the only one you can't necessarily replicate, and the unit doesn't have grenades so it isn't like it'll matter half the time.
Mutations only apply for the Champion, so that's not a unit advantage.

**thunderingjove**

They should have two wounds.

**nareik**

The warp talons are better at being shot at by heldrakes than the loyalist jumpers are :p.

**Pilau Rice**

Would some malefic trickery help? I guess you could have a sorcerer with a jump pack run with them for 4++ from Cursed Earth but then you are getting pricey.

Cursed earth and allied in CDs with a Grimoire for 2++. Very circumstantial though and expensive again.

**Drasius**

Jancoran wrote:
Theres an entire thread where I disagree with you on Mutilators, as do others. So I'd say that's not a given. But Warp Talons are difficult to use, but especially effective against some armies. If you know you'e going against one of those armies, they certainly will give you a boost. if you're not...

Your posts have been nothing but the slow slide onto the ignore list as you lose credibility with rediculous statements that IG is strong as are BA and mutilators. The vast majority of the mutilator thread was everyone and their dog telling you that you were incorrect and the mutialtor are terrible and yourself and one or two others sticking your fingers in your ears and repeating the same arguments over and over again without realising that you hadn't answered any of the questions you'd been asked, nor demonstrated how mutilators were remotely competative against a half decent list.

Pilau Rice wrote:Would some malefic trickery help? I guess you could have a sorcerer with a jump pack run with them for 4++ from Cursed Earth but then you are getting pricey.

Cursed earth and allied in CDs with a Grimoire for 2++. Very circumstantial though and expensive again

Yes, it can work, sort of, but the question then becomes, why not use obliterators as a base since everything that works for talons works for oblits? Then the question after that is why use the CSM dex at all? Why not just use the better units out of the Daemons codex like screamers, plague drones, hounds, D-Thirster, Belakor, Princes, hell, I'd wager on bloodcrushers over talons! Why invest 500+ points making a bad unit work when you can either just take a good unit instead for less points or invest the same 500 points into making a good unit incredible?

It's also a gamble, because there's the inherant risk of a) not getting cursed earth and b) your CSM sorceror perils on doubles when casting maelific powers and he only starts with 2 wounds. You'd be better off rolling for invis anyway. 6's to hit is better than +1 invo unless it gets you to a 2 or 3++ and you can re-roll 1's or failed saves. Or you could go crimson slaughter and look for the 4++ so you can take the mark of ~~Nurgle~~ +1T, though again, both are gambles because there's a bunch of stuff in there that doesn't help them at all with their main weakness (surviving to actually get into combat).

**koooaei**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.