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 Drasius wrote:


Yes, it can work, sort of, but the question then becomes, why not use obliterators as a base since everything that works for talons works for oblits? Then the question after that is why use the CSM dex at all? Why not just use the better units out of the Daemons codex like screamers, plague drones, hounds, D-Thirster, Belakor, Princes, hell, I'd wager on bloodcrushers over talons! Why invest 500+ points making a bad unit work when you can either just take a good unit instead for less points or invest the same 500 points into making a good unit incredible?

It's also a gamble, because there's the inherant risk of a) not getting cursed earth and b) your CSM sorceror perils on doubles when casting maelific powers and he only starts with 2 wounds. You'd be better off rolling for invis anyway. 6's to hit is better than +1 invo unless it gets you to a 2 or 3++ and you can re-roll 1's or failed saves. Or you could go crimson slaughter and look for the 4++ so you can take the mark of Nurgle +1T, though again, both are gambles because there's a bunch of stuff in there that doesn't help them at all with their main weakness (surviving to actually get into combat).

All of which is very true, but I was going for Warp Talons as that is what the topic is about I wouldn't pick Warp Talons over other choices at all.

I would argue about Obs though, they would be a bit slow getting across the board and you don't want them in CC, even though they are surprisingly good at it, with MoN at least.

Oh, I wasn't intending on the Oblits being in CC, they were intended to stand around and shoot stuff while having 2W and either T5 2+/3++ or T4 2+/2++. Why bother trying to melee when you can shoot stuff? This is 7th after all.

Besides, as mentioned, those power fists are at least some deterant to non-dedicated assaulters trying to tie you up.

But yes, the question is "Are warp talons good?" , not, "If I throw hundreds of points of support from 2 different codecies, can I make a bad unit less bad?"

 koooaei wrote:

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.

Knocking it on the head quickly, they actually have more Attacks. Not only do Vanguard have A2 where the Talons have A1 + 2CCW, but there are actually *6* Vanguard in that squad. So they're throwing down 12/18 Attacks where the Talons are getting 11/16.

 Drasius wrote:
Oh, I wasn't intending on the Oblits being in CC, they were intended to stand around and shoot stuff while having 2W and either T5 2+/3++ or T4 2+/2++. Why bother trying to melee when you can shoot stuff? This is 7th after all.

Well you did mention Obs when Warp Talons are a CC unit without any form of shooting so.

 Drasius wrote:

But yes, the question is "Are warp talons good?" , not, "If I throw hundreds of points of support from 2 different codecies, can I make a bad unit less bad?"

Point taken, was just making suggestion as to how they could possibly be made less bad if they were to be used. With cursed earth you would only need 1 codex.

Warp Talons are that superhot girlfriend you used to have who is great in bed but is horrible to bring anywhere else, is mean with a bad attitude, complains about everything, thinks she is the greatest thing since sliced bread, and no one wants to hang out with you and her together. They are great if they get into combat with MEQs, but getting them there and sacrificing the points to bring and support them in the first place just makes them not worth it.

 Drasius wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Wait, they're not getting fearless in kdk? I've been cheated!
Anywayz, biker shredding still remains the same.

No, all deamon units in daemonkin should be fearless instead of having instability, this should carry over to 'Talons since they've got the same daemon rule as stuff like bloodletters in the KDK book.

Which mainly came about because you can't join mortal units to daemons normally due to instability, which would make the entire codex a shambles, so I'm fairly sure that they're fearless.

Daemon units in CSM (Obliterators, Warp Talons, Mutilators) don't have Daemonic Instability, that's a Codex Daemons rule only. They don't have Fearless in the base CSM codex either, so they don't get it in Daemonkin. It's a little bs if you ask me, but that's how it is.

I run a unit of 5 Nurgle talons with votlw.in my mostly mech Death Guard army. They have performed pretty well for me

Alcibiades wrote:
And in the meantime, Team Casual is wondering why Team Cutthroat even plays this game, since it's notoriously unbalanced and has notoriously poorly implemented rules, and thinks Team Curthroat would be better off playing chess.

Computers have already won chess.

 koooaei wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

Can't blind (situational), don't provoke fear (situational), have 1 less attack per model (situational - might metter when bottlenecking), csm don't have vanguard vets.

If you're going to try wasting time using Warp Talons, take the 1st company formation.
1. It gives Fear (and quite frankly anything that will fail Fear is going to lose the combat anyway). Carcharodons also have Fear and can easily gain Rage.
2. Everyone already pointed out the Blind ability is garbage. If that's a defense, remember that this is grasping at straws once more.
3. Vanguard have two attacks base, so you know little about what you're saying at this point.
4. The 1st Company Formation is available to you. Use Iron Hands CT for the 6+++ and justify it saying they haven't completely mutated yet and they're so scary that nobody wants to be near them.

Again, five of them is 160. For 10 more points I can buy a Heldrake. The heldrake is better in every single way. Heldrakes are more durable, can threaten a wider range of targets and kill MEQ better than talons.


I'm a pretty casual but some units are just bad and it's time we are honest about that.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Again, five of them is 160. For 10 more points I can buy a Heldrake. The heldrake is better in every single way. Heldrakes are more durable, can threaten a wider range of targets and kill MEQ better than talons.


I'm a pretty casual but some units are just bad and it's time we are honest about that.

More accurate to say they would require a pretty specific need to trump the Heldrake.

Heldrakes have their problems too. Like being one shot out of the sky with one 35 point Fortification upgrade or similar types of bad luck. So while I agree that the Heldrake will be the better choice, I think one should be careful over generalizing on it.

We will see what happens when a new codex drops. I expect they will stay the same in function but that the rest of the army will be made better able to support them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 JamesY wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
They sure do need a point drop or at least something to justify their price cause the blind drop is very unreliable. My point is that a pair of lightning claws even for that price can effectively murderise stuff and their mobility is also very nice. They're not a point and click unit but can still function good enough to justify a min squad.

6 Vanguard Veterens with 6 Bolt Pistols and 6 Lightning Claws is 162 points. For two more points, I have shooting (even with just the Bolt profile), Chapter Tactics, and Grenades.

Defend Warp Talons knowing this information, when you can get three of these squads in a 1st Company formation.

5++, access to marks and mutations. That's about it. New codex might improve things for them. Unlikely though.

You pay for Marks instead of getting Chapter Tactics. MoK can be equivalent of Ultramarine rerolls, in example. The inherent 5++ only comes in handy against non AP2-3 when you use Iron Hands. When outfitted, paying for Marks is completely inferior to Chapter Tactics. MoS is the only one you can't necessarily replicate, and the unit doesn't have grenades so it isn't like it'll matter half the time.
Mutations only apply for the Champion, so that's not a unit advantage.

I think you misunderstood my tone, I was agreeing with you.

Although you have to pick chapter tactics for the army, marks you can at least pick and choose for the role of the unit, and you can't replicate mon without bikes. As said though, you do have to pay for them.

I would bring Talons over the helldrake any day, they look much better even if they are really hard to paint nicely. Now we are comparing the hot mean ex-girlfriend to the annoying FWB you don't want to spend more time than needed with. Its an easy crutch but do you really want to go there? At least the Talons require some finesse. Why am I comparing my bachelor life with chaos daemons?

So you basically admitting they are bad unit but you take them because they are difficult to use ?

Col. Dash wrote:
Why am I comparing my bachelor life with chaos daemons?

Its all that's left to you?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
So you basically admitting they are bad unit but you take them because they are difficult to use ?

He's saying you gotta have talent to use them perhaps?

There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

For me they're bad because of the following reasons:

1.) You pay a premium for every model when really you'd only want maybe two to three models in the unit with that much killy power. This premium hurts more when other armies get something similar for MUCH cheaper (Vanguards) and when they have almost nothing in those points for adding durability (aside from a 5++)

2.) They lack a lot of options to allow them to do something else other than an extremely narrow niche (like someone said, hunting MEQs). The lack of grenades means even more restrictions.

3.) Sometimes their rules are counter-intuitive. They have blind and deepstrike, but no grenades or deepstrike mitigation. And obviously they can't do anything on the turn they deepstrike, although that is an issue with a lot of assault troops with Deepstrike.

4.) When they are good at killing something, they're often too good. Remember that "premium" I talked about earlier? Sure a squad can probably murder the crap out of a bunch of marines, but one or two probably could have done the job just as well, maybe even better because they can actually keep one or two marines alive to duck out of the shooting phase next turn. Meanwhile, that shooting means they fear so much probably killed a bunch before they actually made it to the line. Which means you just paid for a bunch of extra lightning claws that were never used.

5.) They share the same slot as Raptors, which solves a lot of the problems they have (lacking weapon options, no grenades, no ranged weapons, expensive base cost) while still being able to retain the killy power with the Aspiring Champion. Hell they even share the same kit.

For me, I feel like they should probably be at around 22 points a model. That may sound massively undercosted for what amounts to Jump Pack models with a pair of lightning claws and the Daemon Rule, but remember you'll be paying that premium over all the models. This makes them cheap enough that you can reasonably afford a large number of them to soak up wounds. Or, instead of that massive drop in cost, allow them to assault out of deepstrike and return to it like a Mawloc. This lets them get more mileage out of their blind ability (if you deploy them on the board, you are literally paying for a skill you're not using) and actually make them act more like they are described in fluff: jumping in and out of the warp to get closer to their prey.

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

These guys cost as much as sanguinary guards but die twice as fast to regular guns. In the era of scatterlasers on troops , that seems really bad. Note that I consider sang guards almost unplayable.

Martel732 wrote:
These guys cost as much as sanguinary guards but die twice as fast to regular guns. In the era of scatterlasers on troops , that seems really bad. Note that I consider sang guards almost unplayable.

Oh Martel, you consider everything Blood Angels unplayable *audience laughter*

But am I wrong?

Martel732 wrote:
But am I wrong?

Yes. at the Very list Blood Angels still get Sicarians and Fire Raptors. Plus their bikes are still good SM bikes (just not as absurdly good as white scars)

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

I completely agree there. An elite perhaps would have been better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

Again we dont agree because: Morale. In close combat its all about morale, not actual damage done. Sweeping advances happen.

But yes, they certainly aren't killing INDIVIDUALLY as expensive a modle in those cases you site. No argument there.

I am in the Heldrake camp but what I am mostly saying is: don't fall into the trap of hyperbole. I had to dig deep to find a way to maximize Warp Talons in my blog and so i cannot disagree with their flaws other than insofar as pointing out their strengths exist despite those flaws.

 CrownAxe wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
But am I wrong?

Yes. at the Very list Blood Angels still get Sicarians and Fire Raptors. Plus their bikes are still good SM bikes (just not as absurdly good as white scars)

I meant wrong about SG. Sicarans and Fire Raptors aren't in C:BA. Those things don't make BA good.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There slot placement hurts them, even if they were cheaper they are up against chaos's most crowded slot.

I completely agree there. An elite perhaps would have been better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CrownAxe wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

So unless you're facing nothing BUT 2+ armor, they can do work, can they not? And they will do MORE work in melee against such targets than other fast choices of the same ilk, that I am aware of. and their Daemon save WILL allow them to take a little more damage than they otherwise would. So...

Heldrakes for the win. But lets not overstate the case.

Just because their Lightning Claws ignore armors worse then 3+ doesn't mean they are good against units that have bad armor. You're overpaying on points for an ability that is wasted on weaker armor. If 5 talons do 7 wounds of ap3, do that something as cheap as 5pt IG or 6pt orks basically is doing nothing

Again we dont agree because: Morale. In close combat its all about morale, not actual damage done. Sweeping advances happen.

But yes, they certainly aren't killing INDIVIDUALLY as expensive a modle in those cases you site. No argument there.

I am in the Heldrake camp but what I am mostly saying is: don't fall into the trap of hyperbole. I had to dig deep to find a way to maximize Warp Talons in my blog and so i cannot disagree with their flaws other than insofar as pointing out their strengths exist despite those flaws.

As I said, they are weak to things that are very bad to be weak to in 7th ed.

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
I run a unit of 5 Nurgle talons with votlw.in my mostly mech Death Guard army. They have performed pretty well for me

Can you give more info?

 Jancoran wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
There is no real strategy to them that is different than any other jump unit. They want to get into combat preferably with MEQ as that is what there weapons are designed to fight. They can't hurt any thing with a two up or a decent invul save. Giving them marks makes them better but pushes the model cost up even more and doesn't fix there biggest flaw. Your paying 30 plus points for a guy who is t4 with a 3 up armor save. They just arn't durable enough to justify cost.

Well...

Let me ask you this to play devils advocate. Are there no 3+ or worse armor saves in the armies you face?

And what do you mean "other than" other jump troops. Other jump troops do require a measure of work to get into position so minimizing that seems odd.

What Demos means is that Warp Talons and Raptors are going to require the same positioning. However, Warp Talons aren't as durable (against AP2-3, you're paying almost twice as much for only 33% more durability) and I just proved earlier how Warp Talons won't do better against MEQ that's camping in cover or a Rhino.

However, let us take a gander at that first statement you made about worse save armies. When you pay so much for Lightning Claws, you're sometimes better off without them. Compare 5 Warp Talons (which are a minimum of 160) against 7 Raptors with MoK and two Melta Guns, which is 163 points.
1. Against GEQ (WS3, T3 5+), on the charge Warp Talons inflict 8.9 wounds, and the Raptors 8.6. If you include shooting, assuming a Frag Grenade hits two Guardsmen, you have a grand total of 3.8, which gives Raptors 12.4 kills.
2. Against FEQ (Fire Warriors have WS2, T3, and a 4+), Warp Talons still inflict 8.9 wounds. The Raptors now inflict 6.5 wounds instead (so a little less), but shooting brings that up to 9.2 kills instead.
3. Against TEQ (since the math wasn't already done), the Warp Talons inflict 1.3 wounds and the Raptors 1.6. Including shooting brings that to around 2.6 instead.

See how shooting is a big factor here? Once you include grenades (meaning Raptors charge at I4) the Warp Talons don't have anything going for them.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
See how shooting is a big factor here? Once you include grenades (meaning Raptors charge at I4) the Warp Talons don't have anything going for them.

Well, to be fair you should include a MEQ unit and a T6 3+ MC.

yup.

Also, no one is suggesting they are super. I dont think. Including me. I am suggesting that they are being sold a bit shorter than they should.

I mean if you fight a high AP army as the Tau Empire might offer with all their Crisis teams, Broadsides and so on, the 5+ daemon save suddenly matters more.

I Cannot honestly say I would field the Warp Talons in anything but an army that actually is designed to feature them and that would almost certainly include come-the-apocalypse allies. There actually are some interesting ways to get use out of them with allies. I just think its so much work to manufacture their ideal environment that most normal generals wont bother.

I wont agree that it cannot be done. I won't agree that the Warp Talons are useless.

They better damn well give them grenades and better hand them some way to attack enemy init though. Can't say it enough times: that would truly help.