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Well, I'd say it's easier to oneshot a heldrake than it is to oneshot a unit of talons, buffs or not. But I agree that using a jink on a single shot is a waste.

I disagee with the blind statement though. It's not so much that using their ability is a good idea. It's more about potentially being useful. Let's just say your fighting a tau gunline...they're out there. If you happen to have gate of infinity you could effectively deep strike twice as you come down to blind a large portion of their gunline. With their measily 2 iniative that would be totally worth the risk.

Of course if your going up against eldar then you may as well forget they have that rule. I'm just saying it CAN be a good idea. Even if it's only once in a blue moon. Also, you could use leviation to scatter them after deepstriking. It's not unreasonable to have warp talons ecsorting a sorcerer IF your set on using WT.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

And the Battle Cannon/Demolisher Cannon can hit all your Warp Talons and kill all of them, which is a one-shot. We use Mathhammer for a reason.

For the record, BS5 doesn't change the math by much. We go from a 10% chance of being one-shotted to...11%.
Wow, that sure made all the difference.

Yet, I'm not wrong.

You don't use MathHammer dude. You use What-If-Hammer. Lol.

Here's the reality. When I aim at you with a 35 point cannont, that hits on 2's... and penetrates you on a 4+... That's a 42% chance of penetrating your Heldrake. Tell me what that on shot means to a Warp Talons unit and you'll understand the difference.

Anything else is just missing the point dude. We wouldnt ever compare a damn battle cannon because it canrt reach both types of targets and you'd need me to clump AND you'd have ot hit dead on to make it even matter. What are the stats on THAT happening? Yeah. Exactly.

What does that even mean? You can potentially one-shot a Heldrake and potentially one-shot a Warp Talon squad. Your argument is that the Heldrake's weakness is that it can be one-shot. ANYTHING can be one-shot in this game. It's a gak argument and you know it, and that's why we use basic math, which you seem to not grasp despite saying you work with numbers every day.
I already presented the math for your Icarus Lascannon. It's a 32% to penetrate (you forgot the 5++) and 11% to glance. Once you add IWND and that it ignores Shaken and Stunned results on a 2+, I don't care about the penetrating hit quite frankly. I'll take a 11% chance for it to be destroyed just so I can fire the Baleflamer or Battlecannon/Autocannon (regarding the Blight Drone) again.

Also, you don't need to tell me. Large Blasts are nice for a reason; not including the numbered dice from the scatter, the scatter dice itself has a 33% for a perfect hit. Assuming all five Warp Talons fail their 5++, that's about 10% for that to happen altogether.
Also your Talons aren't going to be spread out because you're the one that thinks trying to use their Blind ability is a good idea, and therefore you're trying to Deep Strike them. Otherwise, they're only going to be spread out 1-2 inches. Isn't hard to accomplish.

Do you not know that they can run the round they deep strike? is that new information or or are you just intentionally ignoring it? Which one is it?

The point originally was that Heldrakes are better than Warp Talons. I agreed that I generally prefer them. I also said that while that's true in most cases, the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder.

Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup.

So...

We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd. We know this really isn't true of the Talons (dice happen but that's not what you're about is it?). THAT was the point. Stop right there and absorb it. Go no further MathHammer guy. Just absorb THAT.

It's just a symptom of you loving to argue with me on everything. Well, stop already. The act is old, PLUS you're wrong, which makes it worse. Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two. Who knows. You're not one shotting them and that was LITERALLY the only point you are arguing...unsuccessfully.

Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations. Railgun? 22% chance of exploding it, 15% adjusted for the invul save. Way higher than your Warp Talon one shot suggestion.

Do you look at what you type? Let us break this down, shall we?

1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T? They are 30 point MEQ bodies. They aren't going to live the turn they Deep Strike because nobody has trouble removing MEQ's, and they already aren't doing anything better than Raptors except one thing: charging MEQ outside of cover. If your opponent isn't using cover, your opponent sucks. Heldrakes don't care about that. To say that Heldrakes are more the one shot wonder is literally the dumbest thing I've seen posted in a 40k forum, and that says a lot.
For the record, it doesn't matter if Warp Talons can run because I already presented how Raptors are literally just SO MUCH BETTER.
2. "Hit all five of the Warp Talons aaaaaand wound all five with one shot... how many are left, math guy? 1-2. Yup."
And that would be the average, which you ignore for the Heldrake's case because you decide it will benefit you in the argument. You look at the averages for the Heldrake or Blight Drone, you can make the same argument.
3. "We know 100% of the time the Heldrake can be one shot'd."
We know 100% of the time the Warp Talons can be one shot'd. You use the Icarus Lascannon, I use the average Battle Cannon. 100% of the time I know I have the chance to do it.
This is literally your argument. You understand now why nobody here respects you and several have blocked you?
4. "Hit all five Talons dead on and one survives, maybe two"
Hit one Heldrake and you fail to penetrate. Maybe you pass the 5++.
See how this works? This is your logic. Absorb THAT please.
5. "Given your perfect storm, I am hitting automatically (I guess) so we're skipping that part of the math and just going right to penetrations"
You're the one that thinks one-shotting vehicles is a viable tactic, not me. Neither does anyone else. I took the averages for hitting, glancing, penetrating, and then the chance to one-shot. I did the same assuming you hit all five Warp Talons with a Battle Cannon (not even the rapid fire variant, which is likely the only one you'll see) and I presented the numbers. Battle Cannons won't even hit Heldrakes, Way higher than your Heldrake One Shot suggestion.
See how your logic works once again? Are you SURE you actually work with numbers on a daily basis? Several people have done this before and you seem to ignore it, hence why you've been blocked by what seems like SEVERAL people.

If you're going to use absurd logic, don't. That's my only advice to you.

Roknar wrote:
It's not unreasonable to have warp talons ecsorting a sorcerer IF your set on using WT.

Having a 2+ IC to tank would help, right? T5 Talons + Daemonheart would shake off a lot of average massed fire like Bolters and Gauss.

Not much use against Barrage, Precision Shot or Focused Witchfires but at least you can't bolter them to death with a tax unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

As 626 said they are a little too good at their job, if they sweep most units on the charge they will be exposed.

I think there's ways to protect them on the approach, but after combat they are going to be vulnerable if they can't consolidate into safety.

What can you bolter to death with a tax unit? Not any meqs really.

Now you are taking 30 pt meqs and putting an IC with them. For a melee squad that specializes in 3+ armor. No thanks.

Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either. I mean they can get fnp but that would be coming from a sorcerer who is most definitely not going to tank. But since you're going crimson slaughter, you might want to roll on telepathy for the stacking leadership penalties from the possible warlord trait. that would be a minus 3 for fear tests on terrifiy and -2 overall for dominate or whatever (after terrify). You'd be "tanking" by making units around you worse. Though at minus 2 leadership you might straight up cause units to break on terrify.
This would work on raptors too mind you. So if you want to tank with talons you'd want a decent invulnerable save and invisibilty.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

Nope.

I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

 Jancoran wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:


1. "the Heldrake is something the Warp Talons aren't: a one shot wonder"
And Warp Talons AREN'T?

Nope.

Correct warp talons aren't a one-shot wonder. They are a zero-shot wonder

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

If they could assault the turn they came in the blind thing would be kinda cool, not great but when it works it works. Instead it's take a gamble and hope my almost 200 point unit doesn't get pasted before they get to do anything but sit in the open

Why was there a five page discussion when we only needed three letters?

"Yes."

 Crazyterran wrote:
Why was there a five page discussion when we only needed three letters?

"Yes."

Or two?
"Ye" "No"

They're not great but not total garbage either.

no he's right. With out heavy use of data sheets and allies, codex chaos space marine is garbage. Pure garbage at a competitive level. Compare anything in that book to a scatter bike. That is the gold standard.

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

Won't argue that, but you can use it multiple times with things such as gate of infinity. Even on the turn you deepstrike. Though that depends on if you allow that to count as deepstriking from reserve so its more of a houserule. Even so it doesn't really change anyhting. Now you can mishap twice and more often than not, still do jack with your blind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Yoyoyo wrote:

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

I suppose you could do that, provided they get their usual support. Not deepstriking them is the better option anyway most of the time. It works for bikes and spawn so it should still work with talons if you manage to give them a decent save, since they lack the toughness of the biker and wounds of the spawn.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

Well hounds are easily acquired via Gorepack. Not only does that access Bikers that are slightly better (MoN will still be the gold standard, but MoK isn't far behind, but the bonuses make up for it), but it saves our Fast Attack slots. Now you just have to choose between Spawn, Heldrakes, and FW goodies.

Yoyoyo wrote:

Mozzamanx wrote:
I'd argue that they're more of a one-shot deal than the Heldrake is. The Blind thing is absolutely a one-time effect. The 'Drake has Daemonforge but I don't see anybody planning tactics around that.

I wouldn't want to plan tactics around blind either -- it's more of a "nice to have" than anything else.

In fact I think it's a bit of a trap, Warp Talons would do better as backfield defense or mopping up damaged squads in the endgame than getting their butts shot off on T2. If there was a ever unit you didn't want to deepstrike with suicidal tendencies it's this one, so "Blind a unit within 6"" is quite misleading to players who want to try out their special rule.

Roknar wrote:
Tanking with the IC is going to be difficult depending on how you land and even a lord would only have 3 W on 2+ so he wouldn't be tanking too much either.

Maybe just bound them upfield behind LOS cover rather than deepstrike. Juggernaut of Khorne could snag an Axe and +1W. Then detach the IC once in position to charge down different units.

You'd probably want to lead with scouting Flesh Hounds with Warp Talons as the second wave / countercharge. Maybe I'll even try this out one day.

I dont think we were talking about tactics, but durability when it came to Warp Talons. I generally would agree that they should bound across and ue terrain and vehicles etc to hide behind. The Blind Effect is nice and there's no reason NOT to esign tactics around it but having said that, I again restate that it is of academic interest to me. In real games i won't use Warp Talons except perhaps when I am building a more friendly list or am feling like screwing around. I can win with them but they aren't really something I'd want to take normally.

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Because they look horrible on paper. You see a unit, you see its point cost, you see its equipment, and think "Jesus, why am I paying so many points for a bad Vanguard vet?" Only one attack profile instead of two, the irrelevant daemon rule, etc. In reality Warp Talons are a solid unit as far as equipment is concerned. Having no grenades sucks, this is true, but can be played around. The real problem is that they are a glass cannon without a delivery system outside of flying across the table or deep-striking. At least Vanguard Vets can hop into a Stormraven or a Land Raider if they don't take jump-packs. That's an option. Warp Talons must fly.

I've tried them a few times (both in and out of KDK) and they have never failed to make their points back, but have also only survived one game. This is what my anecdotal game experience has produced (not a defense, as random dice rolls and anecdote are hardly conclusive, but perhaps some much needed context).

The unit works fantastic as a counter-charge unit. I play my CSM as a Chosen-heavy army, with expensive units that put out lots of damage and require a fair bit of effort to budge in both melee and at range. A mixture of warlord traits and equipment/ marks. This means that my opponent has a strong hierarchy of units to focus, from the melee deathstar pounding for him in a Land Raider, to the plasma chosen blasting holes in his favorite units. Many times I have seen powerful squads advance on my Chosen when I play the defense (Ashen Circle, as I'm not afraid of playing against the HH lists, and blobs of orks), only to have my pathetic warp talons ignored simply due to their reputation of being a horrible unit. Moreover, they sat back behind a rhino, behind the land raider, essentially staying out of sight and out of mind.

Then when my opponent comes within rapid fire range, flamer range, assault range, whatever, the Warp Talons tidily hop over some terrain or the transport and wreak terrible vengeance.

In my KDK army, the army is extremely aggressive and is already in my opponent's face. Flesh hounds are bounding across the table, rhinos of angry Khorne marines are turbo-boosting, a Bloodthirster and a Daemon Prince are sprinting their way over, and a Blood Throne next to a Land Raider are waddling up the table. The Warp Talons are not target priority #1. And so when they show up, they simply kill more expensive units which are not in a position to fight back. Devastators, Tau Crisis teams, etc. The dogs pin the army down, the Land Raider/ Monstrous Creatures draw fire, and the lovely Warp Talons enjoy the spoils.

The bonus of the Warp Talons is that they are small models, have a reputation for being terrible and are mobile. They unfortunately are not a spearhead, but rather a counter-attack unit or a second wave unit(again, from my anecdotal experience). Easy to hide in terrain and easy to keep out of LoS, but also easy to lose due to some bad dice or a wily opponent.

 Kraytirous wrote:

 TheManWithNoPlan wrote:
They are obviously very expensive, but apart from that they don't seem so bad.

So why do people hate them so much? What's so bad about them?

Because they look horrible on paper. You see a unit, you see its point cost, you see its equipment, and think "Jesus, why am I paying so many points for a bad Vanguard vet?" Only one attack profile instead of two, the irrelevant daemon rule, etc. In reality Warp Talons are a solid unit as far as equipment is concerned. Having no grenades sucks, this is true, but can be played around. The real problem is that they are a glass cannon without a delivery system outside of flying across the table or deep-striking. At least Vanguard Vets can hop into a Stormraven or a Land Raider if they don't take jump-packs. That's an option. Warp Talons must fly.

I've tried them a few times (both in and out of KDK) and they have never failed to make their points back, but have also only survived one game. This is what my anecdotal game experience has produced (not a defense, as random dice rolls and anecdote are hardly conclusive, but perhaps some much needed context).

The unit works fantastic as a counter-charge unit. I play my CSM as a Chosen-heavy army, with expensive units that put out lots of damage and require a fair bit of effort to budge in both melee and at range. A mixture of warlord traits and equipment/ marks. This means that my opponent has a strong hierarchy of units to focus, from the melee deathstar pounding for him in a Land Raider, to the plasma chosen blasting holes in his favorite units. Many times I have seen powerful squads advance on my Chosen when I play the defense (Ashen Circle, as I'm not afraid of playing against the HH lists, and blobs of orks), only to have my pathetic warp talons ignored simply due to their reputation of being a horrible unit. Moreover, they sat back behind a rhino, behind the land raider, essentially staying out of sight and out of mind.

Then when my opponent comes within rapid fire range, flamer range, assault range, whatever, the Warp Talons tidily hop over some terrain or the transport and wreak terrible vengeance.

In my KDK army, the army is extremely aggressive and is already in my opponent's face. Flesh hounds are bounding across the table, rhinos of angry Khorne marines are turbo-boosting, a Bloodthirster and a Daemon Prince are sprinting their way over, and a Blood Throne next to a Land Raider are waddling up the table. The Warp Talons are not target priority #1. And so when they show up, they simply kill more expensive units which are not in a position to fight back. Devastators, Tau Crisis teams, etc. The dogs pin the army down, the Land Raider/ Monstrous Creatures draw fire, and the lovely Warp Talons enjoy the spoils.

The bonus of the Warp Talons is that they are small models, have a reputation for being terrible and are mobile. They unfortunately are not a spearhead, but rather a counter-attack unit or a second wave unit(again, from my anecdotal experience). Easy to hide in terrain and easy to keep out of LoS, but also easy to lose due to some bad dice or a wily opponent.

Expect to hear that your meta sux now!

On a more serious note, that's probably how they're supposed to be used. Blind is most often not worth the risk. Or probably you could deepstrike out of los and still get the 6" range?

depends on the foe. it might be worth it. Depends.

sad thing is, back in 5th edition they would have been a decent unit. If they could result out of reserves they might be a decent counter punch.

As for Meta sucking, no such thing. Every group of player reaches their own conclusion of what this game is. But while no one list can win every match, the scatter bike and WK must be in your mind. Can you list beat a nasty Eldar, Space Marine, Necron Tau list. If not your meta in the absolute sense of breaking the game probably isn't up to it and that's not getting into ally silliness

I'm buying the case for mutilators a LOT more than these soap bubbles.