Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I wanted to start a discussion on combis - specifically, combis used in Space Marine armies.

Back in the days of 5th, combi-meltas used to be hot sith. Every Tactical sergeant and his mother had one. And it made sense: meltas were the only really reliable way of popping tanks, and popping tanks was half of the battle in a game of Mechammer. Given that meltas generally only fired once, maybe twice during a typical game, it made sense to pay an extra 10 pts per squad to get a second melta shot via combi as a single melta on its own was still pretty unreliable at killing vehicles.

I think these days, combis are not a complete waste... but not great either. First off, vehicles get killed via HP stripping more often than not, so melta is nowhere near as necessary as it once was. Also, the boost to RF weapons has given rise to Plasma as the go-to special in a lot of cases. Now, this has led many - guided by force of habit I believe - to simply switch out their combi-meltas for combi-plasmas and call it a day.

I think that's a list-building mistake. A combi-plasma just isn't as good as a combi-melta was in 5th. A combi-plasma costs 2/3 of what an actual plasma costs, yet whereas the plasma will likely be able to put fire downrange most of a game, a combi-plasma will only fire at most 2 shots. And those 2 shots are unlikely to have as significant an impact on the course of the game as that combi-melta shot had in 5th.

Now you may say that a combi is only 10 pts, and that is true, BUT those 10 pts add up quickly. Just 4 combis cost as much as a single attack bike, which can potentially be very useful in the grand scheme of things - capping objectives and being an annoyance.

So what do you think? Am I right? If not, what am I missing?

Combi-flamers are the best imo, because you can't miss with them. And being able to pile wounds on with multiple over-lapping templates is great, particularly for say Battle Sister squads where you can already take two special weapons in a 5 woman squad and then get a 3rd combi on the Superior.

 GoonBandito wrote:
Combi-flamers are the best imo, because you can't miss with them. And being able to pile wounds on with multiple over-lapping templates is great, particularly for say Battle Sister squads where you can already take two special weapons in a 5 woman squad and then get a 3rd combi on the Superior.

I kinda agree, but paying twice the cost of the actual special while only being able to shoot once just doesn't make sense.

Combi-Weapons REALLY should only be 5 points, since that's all they're worth.

It can still be nice to get a Combi-Plasma or Combi-Grav on a relentless platform, but that's it.

Deschenus Maximus wrote:

 GoonBandito wrote:
Combi-flamers are the best imo, because you can't miss with them. And being able to pile wounds on with multiple over-lapping templates is great, particularly for say Battle Sister squads where you can already take two special weapons in a 5 woman squad and then get a 3rd combi on the Superior.

I kinda agree, but paying twice the cost of the actual special while only being able to shoot once just doesn't make sense.

Eh, I don't mind so much in the specific case of Battle Sister Squads - you're probably only going to get one really good turn of shooting from the squad anyway (the turn you disembark into rapid fire range, activate the Act of Faith for Preferred Enemy and let loose). In that scenario, a third flamer template is worth 10pts imo.

I use combi plasma, and I'm usually disappointed.
Either my opponent has cover, or he is in vehicle etc...
But it can do great things ! My plasma and combi plasma took 3 wounds of a zooming flyrant last week.
I think the infinite rerolls from the new C:SM made them more useful.
But melta seems so good (killing characters, popping tanks...) and flamers goes well with all the bolters (SM and sisters).

My logic when it comes to combi weapons is that the platforms they are mounted on usually get one round of good shooting off, so the extra shot(s) is worth it.

Not like meltaguns fire more then once or twice a game themselves. If you can double tap plasma once, a combi should pay for itself more often then not.

Depends on the squad. I usually see the combi matching the special, and most of the time it's a min squad coming out of a pod with melta or grav. Plasma rarely gets a look in unless you're taking a rhino, but then you're goign to want to fire both the special and the heavy out the hatch, so there's no room for a combi.

IMHO, it's melta & combi melta in a pod or Grav, grav cannon and combi grav in a pod. Plasma and combi plas maybe in niche cases in a razor, but that was mainly for ravenguard back in 6th when they could infiltrate both into range without having to roll for the warlord trait.

It's rare to see sternguard with anything but combi melta in my experience, and that's where the majority of them are to be found, but with the ultras doctrines, it does make plasma a slightly less inferior option to grav.

I use combi gravs on a command squad in a drop pod with my Dark Angels. They are there to drop down and kill a Wraithknight or Riptide and then die, so I don't need to waste the extra points for the fun grav gun. In this case combis are just a more efficient special weapon since even the regular grav guns will unlikely be around to shoot more than one shooting phase.

I take kombi-skorchas and combi- whatever the main special weapon is. For Scout Sergeant, I take Combi-grav, but then again BA don't have grab cannons

I tend to take them on Dominions Superior, because they probably won't get a second turn of shooting, and even if they do, they'll likely have expended their Act of Faith by then, so I need to make that first turn count. Another ten points to maximize the chances that they'll accomplish their mission are points well spent. My battle sister squads might get combi-flamers, too (though their priests won't, since the priest is the only unit that can get a plasma gun). Combi-plasma and combi-grav rarely find their way into my lists, though I think I've had occasion to use them at least once before.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:It can still be nice to get a Combi-Plasma or Combi-Grav on a relentless platform, but that's it.

I suppose in the case of a min-sized gravbike squad, giving the sarge a combi can make sense, as he is unlikely to be able to fire more than once anyway.

GoonBandito wrote:
Eh, I don't mind so much in the specific case of Battle Sister Squads - you're probably only going to get one really good turn of shooting from the squad anyway (the turn you disembark into rapid fire range, activate the Act of Faith for Preferred Enemy and let loose). In that scenario, a third flamer template is worth 10pts imo.

Not being familiar with Sisters, I'll take your word for it.

Bryan01 wrote:My logic when it comes to combi weapons is that the platforms they are mounted on usually get one round of good shooting off, so the extra shot(s) is worth it.

Not like meltaguns fire more then once or twice a game themselves. If you can double tap plasma once, a combi should pay for itself more often then not.

What platforms do you use them on?

Ignatius wrote:I use combi gravs on a command squad in a drop pod with my Dark Angels. They are there to drop down and kill a Wraithknight or Riptide and then die, so I don't need to waste the extra points for the fun grav gun. In this case combis are just a more efficient special weapon since even the regular grav guns will unlikely be around to shoot more than one shooting phase.

I could see where grabbing 2 or 3 combis in this case would make sense, but I personnaly would field at least 2 full-sized specials. Otherwise, there's not really much of a reason for your opponent to expand too much effort to kill those guys, as they're essentially more expensive naked Tacticals at that point.

I have various combi weapons on all my sergeants. For me it's usually worth it. You only get 5 to 7 times to shoot, a little extra fire power has made a difference more times than I can count.

One of the best combi-weapons ever: The Lion's Roar. Dark Angels relic combi weapon where the combi part is a master-crafted assault 1 plasma cannon. I had a Company Master pick off an entire squad of bunched up guard veterans with it once. It was glorious.

I stick combi gravs on LOTD sarges as they are effectively relentless.

Tactical squad sarges get a combi weapon when I can afford it, to match the squads special weapon.

My weigh in is any combi is worth it in a squad well used. Throwing in that chapterhouse studios, if you search combi on their site they sell magnetized bolter bottoms where the top is magnet and interchangeable and has barrels to work for each combi option. I have them on several sgt equivalent models so I can drop them into different squadrons and switch out a WYSIWIG top easily.

Was wondering myself about combi weapons on my Raven guard tactical squad I'm making at the moment. I'm going for plasma gun on my special and was gonna have combi plasma on the sergeant with no heavy weapon as I want to keep the army mobile. Thing is if your only getting that 1 shot with the combi it doesn't really seem worth the points for a combi plasma so that's why I'm going combi flamer. Yes it's lower strength and ap but at least that 1 shot is going to hit multiple models and is always nice for firing in to cover.