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It's expensive, but it depends on how you build. For example after crunching numbers I decided to drop trying to build a full battle suit Tau army since most of the boxes I'd have to pick up sit around the $125 mark, and it sat at something like $924 to go to be playable. Where as if I go with the Ad Mech idea I've had, I drop like half of that on most boxes which works better.

Basically there's this sort of psychological effect where your mind reacts to the price you pay at the time, so smaller chunks over a longer time while even having the chance to cost more in total will actually feel cheaper to you because of it. So some armies can feel a lot more expensive than others.

 n0t_u wrote:
It's expensive, but it depends on how you build. For example after crunching numbers I decided to drop trying to build a full battle suit Tau army since most of the boxes I'd have to pick up sit around the $125 mark, and it sat at something like $924 to go to be playable. Where as if I go with the Ad Mech idea I've had, I drop like half of that on most boxes which works better.

Basically there's this sort of psychological effect where your mind reacts to the price you pay at the time, so smaller chunks over a longer time while even having the chance to cost more in total will actually feel cheaper to you because of it. So some armies can feel a lot more expensive than others.

Yup, exactly that. Smaller chunks makes us open our wallets easier. Unfortunately to do so that means GW would be taking a hit on individual model kit sales (even if they don't reduce the actual price of the models and just divided them into chunks, the cost for GW will still be the same as 1 sprue will cost them x amount of money to stamp, regardless of how big it actually is, as well as transport, storage and other secondary costs). Unfortunately GW doesn't see that they would gain a net profit from this type of tactic and instead seeing it as them losing money on each individual piece (which means that, while they are gaining more money per dollar invested, they are not getting high enough volumes of money).

I generally 2-4k points at a time now. I don't think it feels more or less expensive than buying small increments. Much easier to spend much more (and to end up wasting money) when you buy a bit at a time.

That said, there are other games that feel more expensive to me. Xwing in particular feels really expensive for these little pre-built and pre-painted models

It is expensive, but not as expensive and bad as modern AAA gaming. I migrated here from those desolate wastes making this my primary hobby. Both companies are trying to get you addicted, but at least GW's products work and function. In modern gaming your usually getting addicted to a game that is just bad and simply there to get your money. Travesties like cookie clicker make it apparent why half of the worlds money is controlled by so few.

Now Square Enix wants to cut up and divide its games up as much as possible. Now they want to split Deus Ex Mankind Divided into three games when it was nearly done. Cut gak out of that for dlc. Look at Konami's fething abhorrent treatment of Kojima. I simply can't abide the gaming worlds brutal dictatorship anymore. At least gamers aren't being insulted by the developers themselves here in 40k land. #FuckModernVideoGames

While I agree with Not_U's point, that buying small chunks makes it feel like less money, I still hold to my point that 40K requires you to keep on buying lots of small chunks forever.

That too. Extra Credits did an episode on collectable games (which 40k arguably fits into, even if it's not the trading kind) and the primary reason for those to latch onto you is because you are invested in your collection, and thus feel like it's a bigger loss to just give up on it. But when the codex rules basically force you to give up on it every year or so, it becomes increasingly harder to get invested, which is like what you said and the cost feeling that much more heavier.

The Models still feel ok in price( well most of them anyways). It's the books that scare people off. There is 0 reason 5 blood knights should be over 100 dollars imo

When I tried to get my friends into 40k, trying to explain to them that they'd need a 50 dollar book, and later on eventually a 75 dollar book if I wasn't there and my rulebook wasn't available, before they could even start buying models and building their armies, They thought I was out of my damn mind for playing this game.


For a "Miniatures" company, they sure like to beat us down on the prices for the rules. And that's not including FW books. If you use a codex, the brb, and two FW books, you're talking about 300 dollars just in paper, which is, barring really expensive lists, usually about half the cost of your army.

Oh here's some more examples. Motal Kommbat X on PC has zero pc support incoming. It's being left broken and unfixed and launched disastrously. It won't be getting any DLC. So now PC support is dead for all those people who paid for the game and its season pass.

Hit man is being split up into "episodic" content. It was an almost finished game and now they cut it up. It's pay what you want. Want that level? Pay for it. Want that gun? Pay for it. Want the next story missions? Pay for it. It's dlc the fething game. Want to be able to do these mini games? Buy the mini games.

Now watch these games be terrible and not work well and be worth the money and yet they want to rip them to shreds and get us to pay up anyways.

I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.

I'm dubious about most things Extra Credit says and honestly the issue with that is, is that Magic rotates constantly forcing you to give up large chunks of your collections use at a time, at least the most popular formats do. 40k on the other hand, despite its version of rotation allows you to use most of your old models in some way. More so, it's actually possible to repurpose models in 40k, the same is not true for cards.

As for the topic of large purchases, I think the scope of the purchase does play a part, but not only because of the number. The most expensive individual Magic card I bought was 800$ cash, it was an Ancestral Recall from unlimited. I didn't even buy it to put in a box somewhere but to play in my Vintage deck in the various events that happened at least once a month for that format, one of which had a 100$ buy just to play because of the prize structure. Honestly, I was down right giddy buying it and then owning it, to me it was a piece of history being twenty years old and just an awesome card. This card was useable only in one format that is predominantly considered a dead format and most of the events for it allow a set number of proxies as it allows them to get 30+ people despite some cards costing over a thousand dollars individually now. I don't feel this way about any 40k purchase, not because of risk of rotation, but because despite it being supported to this day, it has less stuff for me to do than a "dead" format that is ridiculously more expensive in another game.

Maybe that's just it, there's always a dread of "will I get to use this" in comparison to other hobbies. I don't think any other hobby out there boasts the same price tag and lack of use of hobby goods like GW product does.

You should check out the payday fiascos.

The most recent one was the Crimefest 2015 debacle, where in an event where they promised Free Content to people, they start off by declaring that they now have Microtransactions. Where the skins give you in-game boosts (that range from useless to gamebreaking). Granted, the REST of the update was indeed free, but ho boy. And this is on top of the 100+ dollars in DLCs that the game churns out (which is a totally different can of worms).

I agree with those who bring up the random nature of the MtG boosterpacks, and how the chance of getting a rare card boosts the perceived value.

No matter how many ork boyz kits I buy, I'm never going to open the box and discover I actually got a wraithknight.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I agree with those who bring up the random nature of the MtG boosterpacks, and how the chance of getting a rare card boosts the perceived value.

No matter how many ork boyz kits I buy, I'm never going to open the box and discover I actually got a wraithknight.

I don't like gambling at all. When I played MTG I bought the best cards and then just trounced people. I started to get bored of MTG. I loved it when I played but had my fill just as Return to Ravnica was getting started and I picked it up in the middle of Scars of Mirrodin.

Edit
I was lucky enough to open some boosters and I opened 4 snapcasters.

Edit
I seen the payday fiasco. I feel so bad for those players.

When the 7th edition ork codex was released it felt like a kick in the butt to me. The guy at the game shop telling me "your ork codex sucks but if you spend another $50 on this supplement book it won't suck so bad." So for $100 in codex books and $85 for the 7th edition rulebook I can get into the game, that's $200 in books if you add in taxes. When you add in the turn and burn of GW codex and rulebook releases you will be lucky to get two years out of those books.

 JimOnMars wrote:
I agree with those who bring up the random nature of the MtG boosterpacks, and how the chance of getting a rare card boosts the perceived value.

No matter how many ork boyz kits I buy, I'm never going to open the box and discover I actually got a wraithknight.

To be fair, a lot of people, myself included do not buy booster packs outside of limited events, but rather by singles. The secondary market is a massive part of the game. In fact the SGO doesn't use it's tournaments to make money as much as it uses them to buy cards that will be resold. The same goes for gaming stores going to conventions, they're there to pick up stock more than to just sell.


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 Chute82 wrote:
When the 7th edition ork codex was released it felt like a kick in the butt to me. The guy at the game shop telling me "your ork codex sucks but if you spend another $50 on this supplement book it won't suck so bad." So for $100 in codex books and $85 for the 7th edition rulebook I can get into the game, that's $200 in books if you add in taxes. When you add in the turn and burn of GW codex and rulebook releases you will be lucky to get two years out of those books.

General question, but would it be better if the codexes were smaller, but cheaper and came out more often? As in say a 25$ codex once a year, and then a supplement of 10$. Free FAQs online obviously, and if an army is in a good place their new yearly codex is just a reprint with the FAQs and new cover art and maybe mini fluff, maybe a new unit or formation on occasion.

Just a once a year release date for new codexes for every major army, or split it up into two yearly shifts or something. Then have mini supplements be extra as needed.

 Gamgee wrote:
I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.

"Modern gaming" is a crazy big world, you know. There are actually a ton of companies out there producing video games and not all of them are only interested in scamming you. As with miniatures though, you'll need to dig a bit deep and get past the most mainstream gaming in order to reach the true jewels and the best deals.

If you're patient and know where to look, you can get the best games out there for a very reasonable price. If you can't wait and just throw obscene amounts of money at each new shiny game without even bothering to check if it's any good, then you're stupid and deserve to get scammed.

It actually works pretty much the same in the miniature market. If you believed you were switching to a radically different world, sorry to disappoint you.

My main issue with GWs pricing is the age old € per point value discrepency.
Ork mek guns being the ultimate case in point.
Or FWs absolutely criminal Raven scout unit (€72 inc shipping) for 110(?) points.

I have no issue paying for models but when they cost €X and add minimal points to your army, thats what really irks me.
Or when a unit costs €X and their rules just plain and outright SUCK. Hello maleceptor and toxicrene

 Korinov wrote:

 Gamgee wrote:
I fething hate modern gaming. This is news for today folks. There's rarely any sort of good news these days in video game land. Now you know why I'm here.

"Modern gaming" is a crazy big world, you know. There are actually a ton of companies out there producing video games and not all of them are only interested in scamming you. As with miniatures though, you'll need to dig a bit deep and get past the most mainstream gaming in order to reach the true jewels and the best deals.

If you're patient and know where to look, you can get the best games out there for a very reasonable price. If you can't wait and just throw obscene amounts of money at each new shiny game without even bothering to check if it's any good, then you're stupid and deserve to get scammed.

It actually works pretty much the same in the miniature market. If you believed you were switching to a radically different world, sorry to disappoint you.

Nah even indies suck these days. Look at the endless tide of unity store flips. The golden age of gaming is dead. We're in the dark ages now. I'm not saying no good games are ever released, but it's like a.... rare event these days. I find most critically acclaimed indie games are accomplished but over hyped. Few can keep my attention these days.

Edit
That's exactly what I'm doing Korinov. Not buying games and being a discerning customer. It just so happens by being discerning I've found the 99.9999999...% found wanting in these dark days of gaming. Worse than Games Workshop. Which is funny. I used to tell my friends in video game land how bad GW was. I didn't even have an army back then and I knew. GW is still bad, but games got far far worse.

In the Age of Consoles, the world was unformed, shrouded by fog.

A land of TV's, contracts, and everlasting publishers.

But then there was PC Gaming.

And with PC Gaming, came Disparity.

Creativity and Monotony, fun and unfun, and of course... Cool and Uncool.

Then, from the Dark, they came, and found the souls of lords within the PC Game.

Half Life 2, the game of the decade, the Steam Client, and her Daughters of Unified Servers, Gabe Newel, the Lord of PC Gaming Light, and his faithful knights, and the furtive pc players, so easily forgotten.

With the Strength of Lords, they challenged the publishers.

Gabe's mighty bolts peeled apart their bad games.

Steam weaved great online networks.

Half Life 2 unleashed a barrage of fame and fortune.

And Bethesda the Scaleless betrayed his own, and the publishers were no more.

Thus began the Age of PC Gaming.

But soon, pc gaming will fade, and only Dark will remain.

Even now, there are only embers, and pc gamer kind sees not light, but only endless cash grabs and schisms.

And amongst the living are seen, carriers of the accursed Modsign.

 Tinkrr wrote:
I'm dubious about most things Extra Credit says and honestly the issue with that is, is that Magic rotates constantly forcing you to give up large chunks of your collections use at a time, at least the most popular formats do. 40k on the other hand, despite its version of rotation allows you to use most of your old models in some way. More so, it's actually possible to repurpose models in 40k, the same is not true for cards.

As for the topic of large purchases, I think the scope of the purchase does play a part, but not only because of the number. The most expensive individual Magic card I bought was 800$ cash, it was an Ancestral Recall from unlimited. I didn't even buy it to put in a box somewhere but to play in my Vintage deck in the various events that happened at least once a month for that format, one of which had a 100$ buy just to play because of the prize structure. Honestly, I was down right giddy buying it and then owning it, to me it was a piece of history being twenty years old and just an awesome card. This card was useable only in one format that is predominantly considered a dead format and most of the events for it allow a set number of proxies as it allows them to get 30+ people despite some cards costing over a thousand dollars individually now. I don't feel this way about any 40k purchase, not because of risk of rotation, but because despite it being supported to this day, it has less stuff for me to do than a "dead" format that is ridiculously more expensive in another game.

Maybe that's just it, there's always a dread of "will I get to use this" in comparison to other hobbies. I don't think any other hobby out there boasts the same price tag and lack of use of hobby goods like GW product does.

For competitive people Standard is the most popular, but for the casual guy in college (which seems to be the majority of MTG players here), they generally play "casuals" or, at best, Modern. In fact Modern was created specifically because people felt like Extended didn't give enough longevity to their cards and Commander was made because people wanted to use a card that they had one copy of, but can't afford a playset. Also, repurposing does exist in magic to a degree; if a card is reprinted, then any prints of it is valid for all formats it was printed in. Another part about repurposing is the "eternal" formats where new cards can enhance interactions. Remember when Dark Depths was worthless because no one wanted to wait 10 turns to summon Marit Lage? With Vampire Hexmage, a card printed loooong after Dark Depths came out, the older card is suddenly given new value (quite ridiculously so when this was found out) so there's a lot of incentive to keep them around.

Another thing is that I avoided mentioning the Secondary market because a large portion of the pricing issue in 40k is levied against the company, while in MTG it's divided evenly between the community and the company (due to the latter making some cards only available in obscure sets). However because the company always keep the "Cheap" value open, it actually lessens the impact of the heavier purchases. A question is no longer "do I want to drop 400 bucks on an army) but rather "would I prefer to risk buying packs to get the card/something of value to trade for it or just skip the middleman and buy the card I want". That and such big purchases generally are "treats", extraordinary purchases for comfort. For 40k, such purchases are, sadly the norm and impulse buys are totally nonexistant. How many times would you walk into a card shop on a whim and walked out with something, even a 5c common, and how many times have you walked into a 40k store to browse and walked out with something? Most of the time I just walk out trying to plan out my next visit for purchases, or flat out avoid walking in at all because I know I can't afford anything on a whim.

That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.

Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As for the gaming industry as a whole, it's not that we're seeing less good games, if anything we're probably seeing more, it's just that now pretty much everyone has the tools to release and publish a game, so we're also seeing a lot more junk. There has always been more junk than there have been good games, that's just natural though. Remember we're not the generation that had the ET game.

40k has a much higher up front cost than card games but minis tend to last longer. For example I bought most of my marine units back in 5th edition and more or less run the same stuff even years latter. I agree though that getting new people into the game is getting harder because the initial buy in is high.

 Tinkrr wrote:
That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.

Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.

The thing is Games Workshop now has zero interest in the hobby section of the game and only wants to sell their products, while Wizards still take an active interest within the community. Currently formats like Pauper, Singleton (outside of Commander) and Casual formats are not officially supported by Wizards, but nonetheless they frequently write articles about these formats anyways. Games Workshop use to do this with Kill Team, Combat Patrol, and narrative campaigns (like, actual campaigns, not a source book with a series of missions) within their Black Gobbo E-zine. That was the heyday of 40k. Imagine if Games Workshop endorsed videos made by Miniwargaming and directed people who wanted to discuss 40k to our forums (or, better yet, actually appointed Mods within our YMDC forum to be semi-official rules judges, like magic does with their Judge Certification system). It would be a huge boon to the fanbase and maybe lessen the impact of the models too, as well as make their constant chants of "Forge the Narrative" sound a lot less dodgy, since it'd feel like there was actually a narrative in the background, rather than just a few people on the forums squabbling over which chapter a Rhino belonged to. (GW, if you're listening to all of this, note that all of the things I suggested would Not Cost You A Cent to do.)

Part of the reason I feel disappointed when people say this is the era of 40k because of all the awesome models we have now is because it's usually (not always, but usually) said by people who jumped into the game about half a decade ago, long after Black Gobbo disappeared and the hobby aspect was exterminatus'd out of the GW website. To this day I still get people who are amazed when I show them a Wayback Machine version of the website and the slew of hobby content it had, or a page from one of my old, old codexes showing terrain made from plastic house plants. The irony of their "Forge the Narrative" slogan stings even harder when you notice they removed Kill Team and Combat Patrol completely from their core rulebook. Before these use to be the "entry" points into the hobby and really did forge a narrative; you started with a rag-tag bunch of misfits and then built up to a few squads and a tank, then maybe one of them emerged as a hero and as your commander for whom your core 1000 point army would be based around. You didn't need to forge a narrative there, it evolved by itself.

You are right, there's a lot of potential, but GW no longer sees that potential worth investing in, which is another reason why the whole game feels so expensive and empty.

Gamgee wrote:(...)

From what you're typing here, you seem to be currently walking through a period of heavy disillusion with videogaming. There's nothing wrong with that, it can happen to everyone.

There's something very important in regards to videogames though: you have to know what kind of games you really enjoy. Tastes may change over time sure, but seriously, the first step towards enjoying gaming is usually getting to know your own tastes. If you're not into a certain type of genre... it doesn't matter how good a game may be, you won't probably like it, and if you've paid good money for it you'll obviously feel scammed.

Currently, the amount of games being released is so insanely huge that for me, it's enough to compensate for some shady and worrysome practices that seem to have taken a strong grip on the industry. Of course, as well as knowing your tastes, you also need to know who you're buying from. If you heavily dislike certain companies' ways of doing things, never buy games from them. Example? Dragon Age 2 taught me (the hard way) not to buy another EA game ever again. The way they've handled their Assassin's Creed franchise also told me (from afar, never really been a fan) that it's better to stay away from Ubisoft.

As for indie games, they usually have a more modest scope than your typical AAA game, so their actual target population is smaller too. Before throwing your money at an indie game, learn about it for a while then decide if it's actually a game for you.

In the end, if you carefully choose what games to buy and when (never buy a game on release, wait until it's been patched and on discount, don't be stupid enough to pay full retail then do tester's job) you'll probably get great value from your games, and they won't feel expensive.

Tinkrr wrote:As for the gaming industry as a whole, it's not that we're seeing less good games, if anything we're probably seeing more, it's just that now pretty much everyone has the tools to release and publish a game, so we're also seeing a lot more junk. There has always been more junk than there have been good games, that's just natural though. Remember we're not the generation that had the ET game.

Agreed. It's just a matter of being a responsible customer and not buying things blindly.

One problem with the current industry is how it goes into clone overdrive the moment something makes it big. Call of Duty is probably the biggest example of this, as a ton of clones cropped up after it's success and games that are not necessarily clones started using it's mechanics, resulting in a weird "Seinfeld is Unfunny" moment where CoD feels cliched and tired, even though it was the one who started some of these trends. The mobile gaming market is even worse, as anything remotely popular is cloned until death. That is one of the reasons why we feel like the majority of games are bad, cuz they really are and they somehow managed to drag the good ones down with them.

That being said, a lot of games are capable of creating stories and new experiences unlike anything that was available before.

This War of Mine, Last of Us, The Walking Dead are all excellent games/stories/experiences that I would heartily suggest to anyone. The latter two at least deserve a Lets Play.

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

 Tinkrr wrote:
That's actually another interesting topic you mentioned, that games like MtG, despite having very rigid and defined rule sets tend to have significantly more user created content that is eventually picked up by the company itself. Things like EDH and Cube were created by the player base that wanted to play with non-competitive cards in a competitive way, but are now officially supported by Wizards. Even Modern was partially created by the community when they made "Over Extended" which mimicked the old (pre-super Standard) Extended format but didn't rotate. However, I think their cut off point was something like odyssey but the original ban lists were the same.

Meanwhile we have 40k which depends heavily on house rules and we see almost none of that amazing creativity. I mean I have some ideas in mind that I plan to post once I format, but yea, I think it shows the value of having a strong and heavily defined rule system that players can then use to innovate. Even League of Legends, DotA, and Counter Strike were all mods to existing games.

The thing is Games Workshop now has zero interest in the hobby section of the game and only wants to sell their products, while Wizards still take an active interest within the community. Currently formats like Pauper, Singleton (outside of Commander) and Casual formats are not officially supported by Wizards, but nonetheless they frequently write articles about these formats anyways. Games Workshop use to do this with Kill Team, Combat Patrol, and narrative campaigns (like, actual campaigns, not a source book with a series of missions) within their Black Gobbo E-zine. That was the heyday of 40k. Imagine if Games Workshop endorsed videos made by Miniwargaming and directed people who wanted to discuss 40k to our forums (or, better yet, actually appointed Mods within our YMDC forum to be semi-official rules judges, like magic does with their Judge Certification system). It would be a huge boon to the fanbase and maybe lessen the impact of the models too, as well as make their constant chants of "Forge the Narrative" sound a lot less dodgy, since it'd feel like there was actually a narrative in the background, rather than just a few people on the forums squabbling over which chapter a Rhino belonged to. (GW, if you're listening to all of this, note that all of the things I suggested would Not Cost You A Cent to do.)

Part of the reason I feel disappointed when people say this is the era of 40k because of all the awesome models we have now is because it's usually (not always, but usually) said by people who jumped into the game about half a decade ago, long after Black Gobbo disappeared and the hobby aspect was exterminatus'd out of the GW website. To this day I still get people who are amazed when I show them a Wayback Machine version of the website and the slew of hobby content it had, or a page from one of my old, old codexes showing terrain made from plastic house plants. The irony of their "Forge the Narrative" slogan stings even harder when you notice they removed Kill Team and Combat Patrol completely from their core rulebook. Before these use to be the "entry" points into the hobby and really did forge a narrative; you started with a rag-tag bunch of misfits and then built up to a few squads and a tank, then maybe one of them emerged as a hero and as your commander for whom your core 1000 point army would be based around. You didn't need to forge a narrative there, it evolved by itself.

You are right, there's a lot of potential, but GW no longer sees that potential worth investing in, which is another reason why the whole game feels so expensive and empty.

I'm brand new to the hobby. I've followed the lore and even played VGs and RPGs based on the universe for years, but I only started buying models and codices a couple months ago. This does seem like a bad time to get into 40k, but I chose to do so intentionally. Keep in mind that this is my first edition, and I realize that might invalidate my opinion in a lot of people's eyes, but I did a TON of research into the history of this game (as well as WHFB) before jumping in.

I see endless potential in the game, and I see that potential being held back by its creators. I do not see GW as some greedy, evil corporation sitting around, scheming new ways to separate their fanbase from its money. I see a company that is jaded with a game that has grown bloated and stale, just as jaded as its fanbase. AoS is my proof of this. AoS isn't just a reboot. It's a reset button. AoS is GW saying "Well, there's only one way to fix this gak. Rocks fall. Everyone Dies! Now let's start from zero and see what happens".

The next few years are going to suck for 40k. More poorly-written codices are going to be released. More ridiculous rules are going to be argued on forums like our. GW will withdraw into their dark, dank lairs, only sticking their heads out long enough to throw a new codex out the door, then ducking back inside before that players waiting outside with pitchforks realize the door was open.

Then, one day, something glorious is going to happen: the top brass at GW will start to resign. Please don't misinterpret what I'm saying here. No one person at GW is to blame for the current holding pattern the game is in. It seems like the entire company is in the "just do whatever we have to so long as people buy stuff every now and then so we can keep the lights on" mindset. Eventually, though, the top of the company will be pressured to quit due to a severe drop in sale and product interest. That's when someone else will take over. If we are lucky, that someone will have grown up playing Warhammer. This will be our God Emperor. He will cut a swath through the rules bloat. He will launch a Great Crusade across the message boards and social media. He will unite the fanbase in the new glorious Golden Age of Warhammer!

I don't know that this is what will happen, but I've worked for corporations long enough to know that those who show blind, cackling disdain for their customers usually don't last long. I have faith the GW and its investor have enough survival instinct to know that the current trend is most decidedly downward. That's why I chose to go ahead and start now. When the game bounces back, and it will (if 4E didn't kill D&D, 7E won't kill 40k), I want to be that hipster douche telling all the new kiddies "I was playing Warhammer before it was cool".

I would highly recommend you check out Black Gobbo in the Wayback Machine. It would actually shock you at how GW pennypinched itself in it's own articles back then. In fact, when they were accused of making unbalanced rules, they dedicated a whole article to discuss it (and basically telling people that if you do happen to find one of those combos, use it once for fun and don't be a douche about it while they're errating it out). This is in stark contrast to their "We've read your email but we can't respond" response they have now.

Ultimately for all of our grumbles, very few of us know exactly what's going on in GW's headquarters (those of us that do are probably either under NDAs or drowned out by the numerous equally-plausable reasons running around), as almost all people who've tried to analyze their situation have come up with conflicting answers (namely, their massive increase in profitability is usually a sign that they want to sell the company...but that was 4 years ago).

In general, most of us have long since given up hope that GW will ever return to it's old hobby-centric roots, as they've had multiple chances to do so but decided not to. But they do have a chance to turn things around if they take some initiative, and the recent Start Collecting Boxes and even AoS's free rules are a step in the right direction (now, granted, they took like 10 steps back by bungling most of their deals and rules, but hey, at least they're willing to step this way) so there is hope.

Its interesting noone is mentioning EBAY in all of this.

You can get a tac squad for 15 bucks, many character models for 5.

I started an orc army and got around 100 models with deffcoptas, trukks and everything for like 85 bucks.

I think the biggest problem I have isn't the cost, its the fact that to make the models look like the cool awesome ones in the GW books it takes A LOT of work.

It takes me around 2 nights just to paint one biker model. I'm lucky if I can fully paint an infantry model from basecoat to finished base fully in one night.

And I love painting - I could just imagine someone who drops 200+ bucks on an army and has the daunting task of assembling and painting it when all they want to do is play games.


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Image in Magic the Gathering if when you bought cards all they came with was the rules on the card and an empty picture box and you had to draw and color all the pictures on the cards yourself.

Funny part is the same result happens to a lot of people playing 40k - their armies look like crap and they are not super happy about that especially when it cost them like 500+ bucks for their army.

to me, 40k feels just as expensive as almost every other hobby. it's the value that the individual places on the models that makes them feel costly. For me, a 60 dollar model set includes: Assembling, painting, list building, and every game that I play that has the kit in it. For others, it's only assembly and gaming, or even more others: why buy anything other then what's good, and the value is only in the game. the same problem extends to every topic, a 5 dollar burger is going to feel a lot more expensive if you didn't like how it tasted.

It's hard to use Ebay to compare the prices of models, or amazon. The prices can change month to month, although I think everyone will readily admit that 40k probably has the largest selection on Ebay.

I'm not sure if that is from it's declining popularity or some other factor.

I remember we once argued about pricing on these forums, and someone claimed 40k was significantly cheaper because he got a huge discount (30%?) and didn't have to pay taxes on it, but did have to pay full price for WMH. It's not really a fair comparison to make.


I do agree that the assembly can be a problem for a gamer. I'm not really a hobbyist and usually outsource the assembly and painting myself, but others really like assembling everything and the painting. You have to take both viewpoints into consideration and consider it a wash. Same thing with X-wing coming the way it does...for some its a huge benefit, for others it's a reason to never start playing.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Image in Magic the Gathering if when you bought cards all they came with was the rules on the card and an empty picture box and you had to draw and color all the pictures on the cards yourself.

Is it ok that the first thing that came to my mind when I read this was Cards Against Humanity?