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PP's rules went properly free recently as well. GW is really starting to fall behind on that front.

GW is lacking behind in a lot of areas tbh. There's a lot they can change without changing their price, and if they were willing to change prices then a lot more can change as well (they would break out of the niche hobby zone if they just halved their prices).

 Kilkrazy wrote:
AoS basically is the same for GW, so maybe they have seen the light, although given the rumours that AoS has failed to set the skies alight, it's unlikely GW will do the same to 40K in a hurry.

GW have attempted to fix only one part of the problem. There is still other problems, high prices where people don't think it's "worth" it, and no support of the products they put out. Also you need time. GW pissed off a lot of people. Time heals all wounds. People will come back, but nothing is an instant fix though. Given time AoS can be a success. Problem is, GW needs to address the other problems they have caused instead of blaming their customers.

To reply to the original question, it depends on what you get out of your model kits.

If you don't really like the game, but grudgingly play it because your buddies do and you can find a game, and you don't really care for the modelling aspects, of course the 40k will feel like an insanely expensive hobby. If you really look forward to your games and spend dozens of hours on each model, it will feel like a really cheap way to entertain yourself.

On a $5 piece of plastic that is a part of a 40k kit, I can spend 20 hours modelling it, and then use him in 50 games that are 5 hours each. There's literally nothing else in the world I could get that much mileage out of $5 with, except for maybe as a fraction of some good hiking boots

But I could glue together the same miniature in 5 minutes, spend and spend 5 hours arguing about rules, after spending 3 hours waiting for a game for the same $5 too, in which case... what a waste of money.

I mean, you could compare bridge or Cribbage or poker to Magic the Gathering, too. I could have as much fun playing a card game with a pack of cards I got for free from an airline (I do, at Christmas time every year) as I do with hundreds or thousands of dollars of collectible cards.

Oh, by the way, as someone who has bought an awful lot of Magic cards in the day... loved the game, loved trading, loved collecting, the whole 9 yards.... I never thought of Magic as anything other than crazy expensive

40K doesn't feel that expensive when I compare it to my other hobbies.

Video games? I have a PS3 that cost 400 and I have about 90 games for it - most of them I got for $20 but quite a few I bought at full price or in between. Just as a guess thats probably about $3000 (Canadian) right there.

Some of those games are replayable, but most of them I hold on to just as a collection and will probably not play again.

40K feels expensive because it is.
For comparison let us look at other TTG's which are also popular today:

40K - Buy in cost:
usually varies between £250 and £400 for a 2000 point army and supplies although some elitist armies can be purchased for around £200
Rules:
Flat and full of massive errors, inconsistencies and odd points. They offer a limited tactical depth and are often considered overly complex. Also allow for the dreaded turn 1 alpha strike and are so full of exceptions and contrary writings that no one can agree on many points.
Models:
Expensive and vary massively in quality. Some, like Elizabeth Von Carstien, are beautiful but others such as the new AoS stuff are terrible and others like the Cadians and the Chaos marine box sets are showing their age. What is more the pricing of these kits is considered very high, such as the basic Cadian Guardsman costing £2 a model and SM's costing £2.20 a model. For single miniatures this goes up even further with a single Marine character costing over £12.

Warmahordes - Buy in cost
Varies between £80 and £90 for a full tournament army and supplies. Some can be a little more or less but these are exceptions.
Rules:
Good and well designed with plenty of tactical depth. Almost no disputes arise from them.
Models:
Vary slightly, some are good whilst others are a little plain or clunky. The newer kits are improving though. Whilst some are a little pricey per mini the newer restic kits are better priced. They do suffer from being largely monopose though.

Bolt Action - Buy in cost
£70 for a full tournament level plus extra units army plus the factions army book and another £25 for the rulebook.
Rules:
Very well built and allow for a good and in depth game. Some minor issues such as the pricing of Infantry LMG teams and other such units do exist but overall they are good. The activation system also helps prevent alpha strikes and forces players to think carefully as they do not know who is going next.
Models:
Whilst some of the older ones do show their age the newer ones are superb and they are getting better and better. A single £24 box set buys you 25 to 30 plastic multipose figures and includes the options to make HQ units, weapon teams and Infantry Sections.

So yes, just by comparing it to those two games 40K is expensive and their are other games out there which are even cheaper to get started in.
GW need to dramatically change their pricings and writing team or risk losing to the vast number of newer games and companies that exist.

 master of ordinance wrote:
40K feels expensive because it is.
For comparison let us look at other TTG's which are also popular today:

40K - Buy in cost:
usually varies between £250 and £400 for a 2000 point army and supplies although some elitist armies can be purchased for around £200
Rules:
Flat and full of massive errors, inconsistencies and odd points. They offer a limited tactical depth and are often considered overly complex. Also allow for the dreaded turn 1 alpha strike and are so full of exceptions and contrary writings that no one can agree on many points.
Models:
Expensive and vary massively in quality. Some, like Elizabeth Von Carstien, are beautiful but others such as the new AoS stuff are terrible and others like the Cadians and the Chaos marine box sets are showing their age. What is more the pricing of these kits is considered very high, such as the basic Cadian Guardsman costing £2 a model and SM's costing £2.20 a model. For single miniatures this goes up even further with a single Marine character costing over £12.

Warmahordes - Buy in cost
Varies between £80 and £90 for a full tournament army and supplies. Some can be a little more or less but these are exceptions.
Rules:
Good and well designed with plenty of tactical depth. Almost no disputes arise from them.
Models:
Vary slightly, some are good whilst others are a little plain or clunky. The newer kits are improving though. Whilst some are a little pricey per mini the newer restic kits are better priced. They do suffer from being largely monopose though.

Bolt Action - Buy in cost
£70 for a full tournament level plus extra units army plus the factions army book and another £25 for the rulebook.
Rules:
Very well built and allow for a good and in depth game. Some minor issues such as the pricing of Infantry LMG teams and other such units do exist but overall they are good. The activation system also helps prevent alpha strikes and forces players to think carefully as they do not know who is going next.
Models:
Whilst some of the older ones do show their age the newer ones are superb and they are getting better and better. A single £24 box set buys you 25 to 30 plastic multipose figures and includes the options to make HQ units, weapon teams and Infantry Sections.

So yes, just by comparing it to those two games 40K is expensive and their are other games out there which are even cheaper to get started in.
GW need to dramatically change their pricings and writing team or risk losing to the vast number of newer games and companies that exist.

I think your writeup is very very biased against 40K.

40K has the best customization, converting, painting and modeling community.

There are many many blogs of people collecting, converting and painting up 40k armies - and all of these are theme/fluff based and don't care so much if the rules for them are good or not or if the units themselves are good or not.

40k has the best fluff also - somewhere between 100 and 200 novels, codexes etc that have created an incredibly rich background.

People get so obsessed with the fluff, they will collect and paint an army just to recreate some very remote unit or regiment in one of those stories.

I would say it is quite a different beast than Warmahordes/Bolt Action etc. and that it fulfills something quite different that people are trying to get out of the hobby.

40k is for people who want to immerse themselves into another universe.

I would say if you are more interested in tight rules, balanced play, cut throat/tactical gameplay then 40k might not be for you.

The discussion is about how expensive 40k is. Comparing it to other similar games is only natural.

Nothing you detailed really offsets the expense (maybe conversions?) although it does explain why people are willing to pay it.

That doesn't change the fact that 40k's game buy in is massive compared to other similar games. The rules alone could get me two teams in guildball, maybe more.m though guildball is a skirmish game.

I'm very interest in the necromunda reboot to see how that lowers the buy in for 40k.

The buyin for 40k is £65

This is how a buddy and I got started:

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Dark-Vengeance-EN

You don't even need to buy glue - they are snap together kits.

You get 2 armies, rules, templates dice etc.

And the miniatures are VERY nice.

For 2 people looking to get into the game this is perfect and will provide a lot of fun.

Even more fun if you buy two sets to share between two pals.

However the costs accelerate quite fast once you look at the main rulebook, codexes and extra models.

The starter might be roughly the same but 40k is usually played at 1500-2000 point ranges, which is well beyond the scope of the starter boxes.

I think the OP made a good point. I do feel the game is expensive because it literally is expensive - but compounding this is the amount of effort and time to build (I like this part), paint (not such fun) and organise to play a game. Even the set up time can be a bit painful followed by a big effort to keep on top of rules while playing. It's all so.. exhausting! I do feel there is a price to effort ratio here. I still love the 40K lore but, yea, I can't really articulate the previous stuff I wrote in any other way.

In comparison, the price of my saga models, the ease of painting them all and the speed to getting a game going combine to make it feel like a game with a good ratio for price / effort

EDIT: I've got it! That feeling when you eat an epic burger or kebab and the sheer amount of meat makes you feel slow and sluggish and start questioning yourself - 40K is currently like having meatsweats. There is an element of pride associated with completing a game but you will need to rest afterwards - that's the best I can do

That's actually something I heard from some friends who love similar hobbies but don't want to get into 40k. The issue they have is that a standard game is easily 2.5 hours, as opposed to 1.5 hours, making it less appealing. This makes sense because frankly the time investment can make the game feel worse when you lose on a bad roll or something, since all of a sudden over two hours could just be gone from one bad set of rolls. Not to mention the effort of setting up a game, as in finding an opponent and the like, making that loss all the worse yet again because you get to play it so rarely. Like I said, I can go to an LGS every day of the week and play Magic in a tournament setting, and each day will at least be three rounds or more, with each round being 2-3 games taking a total of 3-4 hours. So even if I lose one game to utterly horrible luck, or every game in the tournament, it'll still at worst be losing a game of 40k to bad luck. That's a pretty crushing feeling.

Maybe they just need to get the game to a point where 1850pts can be played in 1.5 hours, I think it's possible and would require a lot more rapid decision making which could really test the skill and knowledge of a player.

Ok what about this then - 40k Kill Team!

There are tourneys for this. Games are under 45 min usually.

Using only a handful of warriors, players can undertake perilous missions of sabotage, assassination and stealth.

Maybe you/your buddies haven't heard of it

Choosing your kill team

Kill Team Detachment (200 points)
0-2 Troops
0-1 Elites
0-1 Fast Attack

No models with more than 3 wounds or combined AV value (all sides) of 33 for vehicles.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/40k-cod-sup/Kill-Team.html

Checkout the screenshots there - this is the faster 40K game.

Each model moves as if its its own unit.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
Ok what about this then - 40k Kill Team!

There are tourneys for this. Games are under 45 min usually.

Using only a handful of warriors, players can undertake perilous missions of sabotage, assassination and stealth.

Maybe you/your buddies haven't heard of it

Choosing your kill team

Kill Team Detachment (200 points)
0-2 Troops
0-1 Elites
0-1 Fast Attack

No models with more than 3 wounds or combined AV value (all sides) of 33 for vehicles.

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/40k-cod-sup/Kill-Team.html

Checkout the screenshots there - this is the faster 40K game.

Each model moves as if its its own unit.

While I've heard of Kill Team, the issue is that it feels like a variant of 40k, rather than a game of 40k.

How can I put it best, Kill Team feels more like a Mini Masters format of magic, or a Tavern Brawl in Hearthstone, or an ARAM in League. I'm sure it can be a fun format as an additional thing to do, but it's not exactly the reason you get into any of these games and it's generally significantly divorced from the way the game normally plays.

Again, not to say it can't be good, just that you aren't exactly getting into 40k just for it.

Aye I play Killteam - I count it as a separate game to 40K though

(and in many respects, it's better - I like the squad-based XCOM style of it)

I like Necromunda or GorkaMorka (if I want something bigger).
The leveling up and owning land and such makes it feel like a great story is being created.

I prefer Combat Patrol as it essentially just uses a different FoC and some unit restrictions (not unlike some of the detachments we have now. Heyoooo) and because points is usually restricted to 400-500 points (depending on the version) you don't have all that many units to take care of.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Even more fun if you buy two sets to share between two pals.

However the costs accelerate quite fast once you look at the main rulebook, codexes and extra models.

I get what you're saying, but there's no reason to buy the main rulebook if you buy DV. It's actually an annoying hindrance for gaming. All it does is weigh a ton and have big print. Had DV existed before the 7e hardcover, I would not have purchased the 7e hardcover set.

Now, if only we could buy all the codex books as softcover minis!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Wulfmar wrote:
Aye I play Killteam - I count it as a separate game to 40K though

(and in many respects, it's better - I like the squad-based XCOM style of it)

OT, but if only someone would write an XCOM style computer game based on Kill Team!!!

 rayphoton wrote:
Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
His posts always cheer me up cause its rare to see someone so optimistic about something alot of us are frothing angry about.

My 2 cents is that you don't feel bad about the money that you spend on other things is because the company you buy from at least seems to care that you are buying form them .

Magic has power creep but magic also hosts great tournaments and give out cool prizes and is active on the forums and ..you know...responds?

Blizzard is known for treating its customers like there super special and they really value their business.

These companies may not really care...but they sure pretend well

GW...doesn't seem to care..at all...about you.. Just your money. So when you buy something....you feel that you giving money to a souless jackass that charges too much

you rang???

i do think that SOME of the minis are amazing, and are totally worth the price that they cost ME...
i don't presume to speak for anyone else, though, or expect anyone to share my opinion...

do i think GW's 40K minis are the best miniatures???
for 40K I do, but i also think that PP's minis are the best WarmaHordes minis, and CB's minis are the best Infinity minis, and collect them all...
i like each mini for what they are meant to represent...
what i don't like is sub-par material, and so won't buy anything in Finecast or PP's sprueless "plastic"...
proper resin like FW's Primarchs, or PP's Exrtreme Khador Jacks is much better...

what i have consistently said, is that i think the current batch of 40K plastic sprues are very high quality casts and designs, easy to customize, and my favorite minis to paint...
every generation of plastic kit just gets better and better, in my opinion, so i am happy to continue collecting them...

as for GW not caring about me (or anyone else), well, i would not expect a corporate entity to care about me...
i would only ask myself if they are making a product that i want badly enough to fork over my money...
however, when i buy a Space Marine Captain, a Dark Eldar Haemonculus, or a Tau Commander, i do feel like i am supporting the work of my homies who sculpted them, and that is good enough for me...
i am happy to see my friends working, and getting the chance to create cool minis, no matter what company they work for...

i do try to be optimistic in general...
life is too short for negativity...
i like that old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."...
there are enough people here that are more than happy to say any of the negative things that i may have been thinking

at the end of the day, i would never debate the fact that GW minis are expensive...
i would only state that i get my money's worth...

cheers
jah

I prefer to err on the side of pessimism, as optimisim invites Tzeentch and he is a horrible roommate and a squatter. Nurgle, on the other hand, bakes you cookies. Puke-laidened cookies but cookies.

It feels expensive because it IS expensive.

Globally wages and inflation have been flat. GW was having double digit price increases when we only had single digit cost of living increases.

They are propping up their increasingly unsustainable business model and there are a lot of fan boy chumps who are going to follow them all the way into the abyss.

Actually if what the GW promoters and Sales rep's have said are true, not even the whales of this hobby is enough now. GW has priced themselves so high that the few remaining Whales of the fanbase no longer generate enough income for them. AoS was suppose to mitigate that by bringing in newbloods but...yeah. That didn't quite work out as they had hoped. Calth and the Start Collecting sets were apparently a nuclear option.

 jah-joshua wrote:

 rayphoton wrote:
Am I the only one waiting for Jah to make an appearance here to tell us he thinks the miniatures are amazing and are totally worth the price and that he thinks there the best deal cause there the best miniatures etc etc.
His posts always cheer me up cause its rare to see someone so optimistic about something alot of us are frothing angry about.

M

you rang???

i do think that SOME of the minis are amazing, and are totally worth the price that they cost ME...
i don't presume to speak for anyone else, though, or expect anyone to share my opinion...

do i think GW's 40K minis are the best miniatures???
for 40K I do, but i also think that PP's minis are the best WarmaHordes minis, and CB's minis are the best Infinity minis, and collect them all...
i like each mini for what they are meant to represent...
what i don't like is sub-par material, and so won't buy anything in Finecast or PP's sprueless "plastic"...
proper resin like FW's Primarchs, or PP's Exrtreme Khador Jacks is much better...

what i have consistently said, is that i think the current batch of 40K plastic sprues are very high quality casts and designs, easy to customize, and my favorite minis to paint...
every generation of plastic kit just gets better and better, in my opinion, so i am happy to continue collecting them...

as for GW not caring about me (or anyone else), well, i would not expect a corporate entity to care about me...
i would only ask myself if they are making a product that i want badly enough to fork over my money...
however, when i buy a Space Marine Captain, a Dark Eldar Haemonculus, or a Tau Commander, i do feel like i am supporting the work of my homies who sculpted them, and that is good enough for me...
i am happy to see my friends working, and getting the chance to create cool minis, no matter what company they work for...

i do try to be optimistic in general...
life is too short for negativity...
i like that old adage, "If you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all."...
there are enough people here that are more than happy to say any of the negative things that i may have been thinking

at the end of the day, i would never debate the fact that GW minis are expensive...
i would only state that i get my money's worth...

cheers
jah

Well Said Jah. You are a port in the storm and I'm always glad to see you pop in. I don't necessarily agree, .but I'm always appreciative of your take.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I am pretty sure it feels expensive because it is expensive.

This, so much this.

Another point to add to the price comparison: I can buy a core set and a few expansions and have a 100 point X-Wing list for ~$60 from online retailers. You can spend a lot more than that on X-Wing, of course, but that's for bigger games and/or to gain more options. That's much cheaper than Dark Vengeance and Dark Vengeance isn't anywhere near enough to play games at typical point values. A better-supported rules set for low model counts would help reduce startup costs a LOT, but that would be against the trend towards focusing on larger and larger models. As it stands, the price barrier to even start playing 40K is pretty damn high.

With any luck, the revival of specialist games might produce a solution for this. I basically want a better-supported more standalone version of Kill Team or a version of Necromunda with more of the 40K factions. That's the kind of game that can have a reasonable startup cost.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
Another point to add to the price comparison: I can buy a core set and a few expansions and have a 100 point X-Wing list for ~$60 from online retailers. You can spend a lot more than that on X-Wing, of course, but that's for bigger games and/or to gain more options. That's much cheaper than Dark Vengeance and Dark Vengeance isn't anywhere near enough to play games at typical point values. A better-supported rules set for low model counts would help reduce startup costs a LOT, but that would be against the trend towards focusing on larger and larger models. As it stands, the price barrier to even start playing 40K is pretty damn high.

With any luck, the revival of specialist games might produce a solution for this. I basically want a better-supported more standalone version of Kill Team or a version of Necromunda with more of the 40K factions. That's the kind of game that can have a reasonable startup cost.

It's actually called Kill Team, and it's only a $12 expansion

http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Warhammer-40-000-Kill-Team-ebook-Edition

You can build a kill team force from any of the Start Collecting boxes (you won't even use all the models), at $85 each. The game is actually quite fun to play, and there are KT leagues in many cities/clubs, and many big-game 40k fans occasionally play KT as well. Kill Team reduces you to 250 points, there's no magic, and nothing with extraordinary HP, which excludes everything big. All the models move independently (no coherency) and it's played on a small table.

However...

MOST people who play and collect 40k don't aspire to just play Kill Team. Which is really the crux of it. It's not that 40k forces you to play big games; it's that most people playing 40k want to play big games.

You're leaving out that that $12 book relies on you having the main rulebook and codices. That's what I said "more standalone". Those $85 boxes are neat, but you still need to either buy the big rulebook or Dark Vengeance plus the relevant codices. That's the problem with this implementation of Kill Team: it's way too dependent on you buying the stuff meant for the more expensive big game. It's not priced at a cheaper standalone entry point.

 TheWaspinator wrote:
You're leaving out that that $12 book relies on you having the main rulebook and codices. That's what I said "more standalone". Those $85 boxes are neat, but you still need to either buy the big rulebook or Dark Vengeance plus the relevant codices. That's the problem with this implementation of Kill Team: it's way too dependent on you buying the stuff meant for the more expensive big game. It's not priced at a cheaper standalone entry point.

Or just buy the softcover mini BRB by itself. It's what I recommend everybody do anyways, if they're not getting DV, as it's far more useful than the hardcover BRB. You can get it around $20-$30, or free if you ask nicely at some gaming clubs.

You don't kneed the codices. The rules for the models come in the start collecting box, and many of the SRs from the codex aren't relevant to KT anyhow.

Wasn't that just an internet rumor? Don't they come with only the basic statline with no special rules text?