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 kronk wrote:
Racing cars and bikes is expensive.

Scrap booking is expensive.

Travel is expensive.

Collector Plates from the Bradford Exchange is expensive.

Decorating your house like the Griswolds for every damn holiday like my neighbor is expensive (seriously, who decorates for Arbor Day?).

Pick a hobby. It's as expensive or inexpensive as you make it, to some degree.

Except dating. Chicks be expensive, yo!

Yes all those are expensive, thing is most people feel it's worth it. For what ever reason, us geeks and nerds don't feel GW is worth it, but yet we stick around and complain. Hey wait, we are all Canadians.

For people posting the whole "but motorcross/model trains/etc. Are more expensive!" Spiel, you realize that's not what people are talking about right?

I'll use myself as an example, I play guitar and I shoot guns. You can easily spend $800 USA on a nice firearm or guitar. That's ignoring the hidden costs like strings, amps, ammo, targets, sights, etc.

I will gladly drop money on either of those no issue for the price, yet still consider GW expensive.

You need to realize people complaining about the cost are not comparing this to other hobbies, they're comparing GW to other companies IN THE SAME MARKET. It is absolutely fair to label GW as expensive when competitors can make similar quality kits for far lower prices, or beat them on quality in the same price bracket.

Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous. Yes, playing 40k is infinitely cheaper than flying a plane as a hobby, but that doesn't matter because I'm not trying to buy a plane, I'm buying 40k. I get that this argument also applies to the fact that regardless if other model companies beat 40k in price or quality, you still don't care because you want to play 40k, that's fine. But don't lie to people or yourself and think GW is cheap or reasonable when literally every company making plastic kits that are even remotely in the same vein are beating them in price or quality, or both.

Gw is expensive for their market, that's a fact. They seem to be taking steps to remedy this with the getting started boxes and whatnot, but they still have a ways to go.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
Saying "well, GW is dirt cheap compared to Magic/hang gliding/racing/ etc." Is ridiculous. Yes, playing 40k is infinitely cheaper than flying a plane as a hobby, but that doesn't matter because I'm not trying to buy a plane, I'm buying 40k.

Strongly disagree here. The comparison might not be valid for you, but it's valid for a lot of people. For example, that plane might cost you $30,000, with operating costs of $100+ per hour. A weekend trip could easily cost you $300 in fuel alone, plus food, hotel rooms, airport fees, etc. So if that's your primary hobby expense then maybe the price of 40k doesn't matter. A tank model that takes a month to finish and contributes to years of playing the game is still "cheap" regardless of whether it costs $50 or $100.

Why shouldn't you compare 40k to other miniature wargames instead of, say, owning a plane?
Which was a pretty ridiculous sentence to write, ill admit.

I think it's fine to compare any hobby to any other hobby, since we all have limited funds and time. Though when making that comparison it's not about just a number in terms of expense, it's how we feel about that expense.

Let me put it this way, my co-worker bought a bike recently for almost 3k, and they thought it was a steal. In fact it was, because the bike was 5-10k probably, and I'm not talking about a motorcycle, I'm talking about a normal bike they can ride on rough terrain, such as snow. I want to buy a bike, for transportation, and I'm looking to spend at most a couple hundred dollars, for me the price he paid is outlandish, even at the massive discount, but for him it's not. He even said he bought it because he tried one of that type and couldn't stop smiling while riding it.

That's what this is all about, it's what we get out of it. For him riding that bike is a hobby, for me riding a bike is just getting from point A to point B. I fully understand his enjoyment of it, and while it feels expensive for me, it probably feels more than cheap for him.

That's what this discussion is about, the price doesn't matter what the price tag is, it depends what we get out of it, and what we actually feel about it. That plane can be infinitely more expensive than 40k, heck your car is infinitely more expensive than your 40k collection most of the time, but the utility of the car or plane probably doesn't make it feel expensive at all in the long run, but for 40k that's not the case. Obviously a car is a necessity for most, but in reality it's not, I don't drive but rather move as needed, it's great for me, and for me a car feels overly expensive, and that's what this is all about, how we view the utility of a product in comparison to the price. Not the actual number.... I mean would you feel a plane is expensive at a hundred thousand dollars? Now would you feel getting punched in the face for one penny is expensive?

Edit: Honestly, I'm super happy that this thread has been so on topic so far, with so few people coming in and making posts without reading my opening and just saying "Oh, but look at the price of ___ or ___ it's clearly not more money than most things." because this is all about our desire to spend money on whatever hobby we have, no matter what it is, or how many hobbies we have.

 Kilkrazy wrote:

Loborocket wrote:
Ok. My mistake. Maybe it is time for you to move on to another GAME if 40k is too expensive. Please, move on to another game. One you find exceptional in all facets, and spend all of your time on it rather than time spent wishing and hoping 40k meets all of your expectations. 40k is not for everyone. Some feel it it too expensive, some feel the rules are terrible, or both. If you are one of those 40k is NOT for you. Find you real passion and go persue that.

If you do not feel the game is expensive, it would be interesting to hear about your reasons, as relevant to the topic.

If you looked just a couple posts above this one you would have seen my "on topic" reasons. Chasing "new hotness", switching armies, always feeling like you need the new thing, that will make the game "feel" expensive. That combined with the fact you have higher expectations you don't feel like you get value.

I have spent from $1600 to $2000 over the last 4 yrs or so on the game. That comes out to about $10-$15 per week. I can play at least 2 games a week if I wanted to. I get to paint models pretty much as much as I want, plenty of backlog, spend time thinking about army builds, listen to podcasts on 40k, watch YouTube shows on 40k. I feel like I get a lot for my $15 per week. All of it is a nice distraction from other thing in my life, so if that still "feels too expensive" I say you should really look elsewhere for your hobby $.

In your example, you (an outsider) thought the bike was absurdly expensive.
Your friends, people who are into biking, thought it was relatively cheap.

How is this different from someone who doesn't play any mini gaming thinking the whole thing is absurdly expensive (which I hear all the time...) versus someone in the hobby saying "wow, 40k seems very expensive for this?"

Akiasura wrote:
In your example, you (an outsider) thought the bike was absurdly expensive.
Your friends, people who are into biking, thought it was relatively cheap.

How is this different from someone who doesn't play any mini gaming thinking the whole thing is absurdly expensive (which I hear all the time...) versus someone in the hobby saying "wow, 40k seems very expensive for this?"

Pardon? I think you must have gotten something wrong in your post, but that's pretty much my issue, that even people in this hobby have a feeling of it being expensive, not that those who do play overall feel it's reasonably priced.

One example I mentioned was that I play a "dead" format of Magic that is super expensive, people who don't play that format think it's super expensive, but people who do think it's reasonable for what it is. I don't get that from 40k, even the people who do play it generally feel it's expensive and that's an issue as a whole with the game, as opposed to simply a dollar value of the product.

It reads like you're saying that you have to be in the hobby to appreciate how cheap or expensive something is, but you are also saying the value of that is hard to determine and immaterial in a way.

Basically, are you saying people can't look at gw and their competition and determine if it's expensive or not?


As for your format, i can't comment on it. Is the format so unique no other card game can mirror it? Why is it so expensive?

Akiasura wrote:
It reads like you're saying that you have to be in the hobby to appreciate how cheap or expensive something is, but you are also saying the value of that is hard to determine and immaterial in a way.

Basically, are you saying people can't look at gw and their competition and determine if it's expensive or not?


As for your format, i can't comment on it. Is the format so unique no other card game can mirror it? Why is it so expensive?

Both, either, all? What I'm saying is that usually a hobby appears expensive to outsiders, but to insiders it's no expensive, as they truly get a joy and utility out of it that makes the cost seem minor. Then on top of that I'm saying I don't see that in 40k, as even the insiders feel it's a little expensive, despite the actual cost not being that bad, and I'm someone who played the game way back when, didn't find it expensive, and now as I'm returning it feels like a burden, despite how cheap it was for me to get into it as I knew a source that got me most of my product at over 60% off. That's what I'm trying to address, the feeling of insiders who play the game, and are in the hobby, but still don't get that satisfaction as others get in other hobbies that are just as expensive or more so.

Yes, the format is unique, it's using cards printed over 20 years ago at this point, that can not be reprinted. So when I go out and put down 800$+ on a card, it's buying a piece of history from a game I enjoy, it's capturing something that has been around for so long, and was at the start of such a massive franchise, and I can still play with today. Yes, it's a dead format, but I can play in small events for it (30+ people) locally at least once a month with little travel, I can even go to larger more expensive events that have a couple hundred people but can have a hundred dollar or more buy in... These events aren't just for that one tournament, but they have people playing things like the "Art League" which is a sub set format that basically states you can only play cards that you own the original art for (as in the original painting the artist made) they even play wearing those gloves museum workers wear as sort of a joke because they're in a way handling art they own now. There's another format that also spawned off of it called '93/'94 magic which is where you can only play cards printed in those years, most of which are only a few dollars but some do exceed several hundred dollars as I've mentioned before.

It's completely a hobby format, it's not that common for Magic, it's not something you get into to grind into pro-tours or whatever, it's just something you enjoy and get use out of. Yes, there's a resale value to the cards, but most who buy in don't intend to really sell out, to them it's about collecting pieces of art and history, and playing the awesome game known as Vintage. I remember snatching up purchases on ebay between the 200-400$ range and being excited about it, and praying they weren't counterfeit. I also remember buying a Crisis Suit kit in person for what 15-20$ and feeling happy about it until I learned how little use I'd ever get out of it, at which point there was a crashing feeling of it almost being counterfeit.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Both, either, all? What I'm saying is that usually a hobby appears expensive to outsiders, but to insiders it's no expensive, as they truly get a joy and utility out of it that makes the cost seem minor.

This is an excellent way of putting it. I couldn't have said it better myself. People who enjoy sailboats think it's money well spent; people who don't think moorage fees are crazy expensive.

 Tinkrr wrote:

Then on top of that I'm saying I don't see that in 40k, as even the insiders feel it's a little expensive, despite the actual cost not being that bad, and I'm someone who played the game way back when, didn't find it expensive, and now as I'm returning it feels like a burden, despite how cheap it was for me to get into it as I knew a source that got me most of my product at over 60% off. That's what I'm trying to address, the feeling of insiders who play the game, and are in the hobby, but still don't get that satisfaction as others get in other hobbies that are just as expensive or more so.

Yes, the format is unique, it's using cards printed over 20 years ago at this point, that can not be reprinted. So when I go out and put down 800$+ on a card, it's buying a piece of history from a game I enjoy, it's capturing something that has been around for so long, and was at the start of such a massive franchise, and I can still play with today.

This just means that you love MtG more than you love 40k. $800 on a card or $800 on a model or $800 on a football jersey, what's the difference? They're all luxury goods that people with extra money spend that give them some joy.

It's easy to answer the question, "Does Warhammer 40k cost more than other tabletop wargames?" -- the answer is of course, yes. It costs a lot more than most other tabletop wargames. So the next question is, does it make you a lot happier than another tabletop wargame that costs a lot less?

If the answer is yes, the game won't feel expensive. If the answer is no, then the game should. This is, of course, tempered by how valuable money -- in the numbers we're talking about -- is to you. There are an awful lot of very rich people in this world, but even excluding those, there are a lot of people for whom $300 versus $1,000 for a game is an easy choice to make if they like the $1,000 game even a little better. Kind of like paying for $1,000 seats instead of $300 seats at a concert or sports event.

Keep in mind that there are a myriad of reasons that one might answer "yes" -- the satisfaction of modelling a sea of miniatures; a love of the aesthetic or storyline; genuine affection for the game; a better play group. There are just so many criteria that we use to judge it.

All I can say is that there are people who play 40k despite it feeling expensive, and there are people who play 40k who don't feel it's expensive -- and the two main differences between these groups will be how much enjoyment they get out of it, and how much disposable income they have.

 Eldarain wrote:
I think it's important to focus on the actual question being asked. It's not "Is the game expensive?" "It's " Why does this game feel so expensive?"

It's a very strong point as I find myself in a similar space as the OP. I happily drop far more money on LCGs, board games, WMH etc.

For me it comes down to value for my money. The price of the kits and rules for 40k just don't reflect money well spent anymore. The rules are expensive and poorly written (comparing the YMDC forums for 40k and WMHs is staggering. 40k threads go in circles for many pages until people tire of the argument or a mod locks them. Not one WMH thread reaches a second page!)

While definitely subjective I have not liked the direction the plastic kits have been taking and the prices (especially when weighed against how many are needed) just don't feel like a sound purchase anymore.

I still do hand GW money though. But it is exclusively for FW products as I still value their approach to the 30k rules and their resin kits are both nicer aesthetically (IMO) and barely more expensive than GW expects for their plastics.

I agree with this.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
For people posting the whole "but motorcross/model trains/etc. Are more expensive!" Spiel, you realize that's not what people are talking about right?

I'll use myself as an example, I play guitar and I shoot guns. You can easily spend $800 USA on a nice firearm or guitar. That's ignoring the hidden costs like strings, amps, ammo, targets, sights, etc.
....

Quite right!

I spend about £1,000 a year on rowing clubs for my daughter and myself. What we get out of that money is not little plastic soldiers and paints and rules, it's fresh air, exercise, team based competition, tickets for Henley Royal Regatta, and so on.

It's irrelevant that for £1,000 I could buy a pretty large new GW army. What's relevant is that if I spent £500 on GW stuff, and £500 on non-GW stuff, I would overall end up with a lot more of the non-GW stuff.

I suppose what it boils down to is, do you consider mini war gaming the hobby (in which case 40k is very expensive from a relative standpoint) or do you consider 40k the hobby.

At least, to me, that is what it sounds like everyone's arguments is coming down to. If it's mini wargaming, other games are much cheaper to break into and 40k seems expensive. If it's 40k, while it may seem expensive, there is no other choice out there.

Tinkrr, even though you love your format of magic, I think if someone said "This seems really expensive..." you'd have to agree . I'm not saying it's not worth it, only you can determine that, but objectively it does seem very expensive.

It feels so expensive IMHO because you are normally buying multiples. You don't typically buy just one Tactical Squad, you need 3 of the same box; you buy 2 boxes of Assault Marines to make a single unit (so if you wanted 2 units, you have to buy 4 boxes).

Also, you frequently need to buy supplemental things. You buy a tactical squad box, but you also need a Rhino to transport them. You don't want a missile launcher? You need to buy a Devastator box for additional weapon options.

That's a big reason IMHO. It's not just because it IS expensive, it's because you feel like you're getting cheated every time you buy something because you need to buy something else or several more boxes because of how the points system works in 40k.

To compare: Warmachine isn't exactly cheap but it's very rare that you buy more than one unit box + attachment blister (some spam lists aside). So you feel like you are getting more variety for your money, because for example I'll buy a unit box and the attachment (Let's say that comes to $70, $50 for the box, $20 for the UA), and that's the only one I need to buy in 99% of situations, so when I buy 3-4 units I have complete units that I don't need multiples of and I can fill out my army with solos (usually inexpensive) and Warjacks (about average cost). It feels better than having to buy 3 of the same box to fill out an army, plus a transport for each, plus everything else.

To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.

I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.

I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.

So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.

So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.

Akiasura wrote:
I suppose what it boils down to is, do you consider mini war gaming the hobby (in which case 40k is very expensive from a relative standpoint) or do you consider 40k the hobby.

At least, to me, that is what it sounds like everyone's arguments is coming down to. If it's mini wargaming, other games are much cheaper to break into and 40k seems expensive. If it's 40k, while it may seem expensive, there is no other choice out there.

Tinkrr, even though you love your format of magic, I think if someone said "This seems really expensive..." you'd have to agree . I'm not saying it's not worth it, only you can determine that, but objectively it does seem very expensive.

That is the crux of it!

If you will only buy GW stuff, it's impossible to find competing products, so the question of relative cost does not arise.

Even so, if GW put the price of a single infantry figure up to £220, I think a lot more people would come to agree it was expensive.

Another issue is when you purchase a 40k kit, you're only contributing to the one army that kit is for. But in MtG, when you purchase a booster, you can get cards that will contribute to multiple decks and play-styles. So even if you don't get the rare card you want, you still feel like you got something useful because you can say "oh, this can go in my aggro deck".

In 40k, you invest heavily into 1 army, but if you get tired of that army or if GW nerfs that army then you're stuck. You don't have a collection of models that can be used for other armies.

 chaosmarauder wrote:
To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.

I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.

I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.

So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.

So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.

I remember in the late 90s and early 00s metal units for fantasy were sold in boxes of 10 models for around 20€* (from 2002 to 2005 the price hiked up to 27€ or so). So in order to field a squad of 15 daemonettes you would need a box (about 20€), a command squad blister (12€) and another blister of 'normal' models (10€). That's around 42€ to me, which even a few years back when the Euro at its peak would have meant what, 55$? Unless GW was brutally screwing the US market, of course.

*Technically, in the late 90s the Euro was still not a thing in the streets, so speaking from memory regarding national currencies of the time.

40k feels expensive, because it is expensive. It'd feel about right if they cut the price of everything by 50%.

Still, at least you get something besides a card with a picture, one that is so easily reproducable in so many ways (not that I condone) that it makes one seriously wonder how the hobby stays afloat.

Then we get into hobbies like golf and scuba and the like, and 40k seems like peanuts even with the overinflat costs.

As someone who plays golf and does scuba, 40k is way more expensive than either. Golf is really a one time investment with a small fee to play, scuba is a one time investment with a relatively small fee to dive.

I've been doing both for 2 decades...I think combined they equal one of my 40k armies.

Well, there are some golf courses that are inexpensive to play on, however most are very expensive to play on, at least IMO and IME.

Scuba not only costs alot to get the equipment, it costs alot to go to nice places to scuba. It's my uncle's primary hobby, and he easily outspends me on his scuba trips compared to what I spend on 40k.

I guess alot of it depends on how deep you get into these hobbies...I mean 40k could even be said to have a one time expense. You only need one army and a couple books to play.

EDIT: I am not standing up for 40k as a cheap hobby here...I think it is way too expensive.

Hm, it's true if you have to travel for scuba. I live somewhat close to some of the best scuba spots in the country, so I never pay for travel. My girlfriend is a biologist so we can go for free.

I know my friends who traveled for 40k tournaments spent a lot. Going to something like wtc in wmh costs more than I've ever spent on golf.

I agree that 40k is expensive. I can make a lot more varied lists in wmh with cryx, skorne, and cygnar with my limited range than I can with all of my chaos models. It's against the same mostly competitive group too, so I'm constantly facing bradigus, MMM, EE, RoW (we have a ton of troll players), Harbringer, lylth2...

Necromunda is very cheap and is what I point most people to for their first 40k experience.

Yeah, my uncle lives near DC so unless he wants to scuba in a murky rock quarry, he's gotta go some place. They go to the Carribean, Central, and South America alot for scuba so you can imagine the plane tickets and hotel stays adding up.

I actually think Necromunda looks like a very cool game. I've read through the book and want to give it a go but alas for interested players. Warmahordes was popular for a hot minute around here, now nobody plays it at all. Really, if people ask me about an affordable avenue for TT gaming that actually has local support, I tend to gear them towards historicals if there's any interest there.

As a reference point, I think the prices we see in the TT historicals market are the kind of prices we should see in the TT sci-fi market.

People are often skeptical about necromunda, but the games really don't take long.

What I would do is look over the "living rule book" (it contains some common house rules and is much easier to go through) and just ask someone to do a quick demo game. It takes no time to do it compared to a 40k match, especially if you pre build the list. And there are a ton of well put together variant armies for other races that aren't unbalanced.

I had friends who had never played 40k or fantasy and after 2 games, joined the league so we have 12 players. One of them is an amateur cartographer and has made us a very cool map that he updates regularly as we gain/lose areas and points.

I try not to think how much money i've spent on Hearthstone when I run my fully golden midrange golden paladin deck.

The flashing lights distract me. Sadly, my Space Marines don't have flashing lights...

Akiasura wrote:
People are often skeptical about necromunda, but the games really don't take long.

What I would do is look over the "living rule book" (it contains some common house rules and is much easier to go through) and just ask someone to do a quick demo game. It takes no time to do it compared to a 40k match, especially if you pre build the list. And there are a ton of well put together variant armies for other races that aren't unbalanced.

I had friends who had never played 40k or fantasy and after 2 games, joined the league so we have 12 players. One of them is an amateur cartographer and has made us a very cool map that he updates regularly as we gain/lose areas and points.

I suppose my problem with Necromunda interest is that the people I play with most regularly are most interested in very very big games, and they want to spend all of their gaming time playing very very big games.

Intrinsic value is something that is very hard to measure, especially since it's the very definition of what it is to be a hobby. Which is why direct dollar comparisons are very hard to do as someone could get a lot out of each dollar because they value in the experience, while others do not.

For example for me, Not only is the process of assembling and painting part of the intrinsic value, but dealhunting is one too. That feeling when you find someone selling an unknown gem and you managed to negotiate a fair (but really awesome) price for it. If I were to count every dollar I would have to factor in the time spent negotiating, gas and parking fees, and chemical costs for stripping the models (not to mention work hours to get the thing presentable again). But those don't matter to me as I inherently enjoy that process, far more than if I just shelled out the extra money to buy a new set from GW.

On that note, someone brought up that you can't really do cross-market comparisons with GW because technically there are barely any alternatives for GW products. One thing I wanna point out is that GW somehow manages to compete with itself a lot, especially when their marketing prices something without checking back to see what older items are priced at. Case-in point, the plastic Space Marine Commander Clampack is 10 CAD more than the plastic Space Marine Commander boxset, despite the latter actually having options and being essentially the same model. The pricing gets even worse when you consider the Masters of the Chapter boxset, which gives FOUR models for almost the same price as the Clampack (one of which basically has the same equipment) with the only material difference being that one is made of resin and the other is made of plastic. This is not even getting into using generic models converted to be characters, which is even cheaper.

Price discrepencies like that on their own website just compounds on the initial high price of entry already for the game, which makes the expense all that much more obvious.

Ah, fair enough.
They might like Gorkamorka which is bigger but I doubt it.
That's too bad, you are missing out on great fun. I recently had a game where someone tried to get a hostage back and ended up eating a flamer to the face before killing the 2 wardens and breaking the guy out. The whole game was tense since I'm very good at combat, and have tons of tech, but slow, while my enemy is playing a very fast army so is good at the stealth missions. He almost made it through the whole base until the flamer guy went off, but he was killed before the alarm could be set off.

The girl who ate the flamer ended up horribly scarred and now causes fear, she's that ugly. Pretty sure I'm going to get raided by that player, or he will team up with some one and try to take one of my precious artifacts. I may need to make a deal with the gene stealer cult and trade them some guys for protection.

The game just naturally creates a narrative that is unseen in anything else I've ever played.

 Korinov wrote:

 chaosmarauder wrote:
To me it actually felt a lot worse back in the 90s when they pretty much only sold metal models.

I collected Warhammer fantasy back then.

I remember it was something like $18 to buy 2 infantry models or a command squad.

So if you wanted to field a unit of say 15 Daemonettes with command squad it would cost you like $200.

So to me atleast - the plastic kits seem way cheaper than back then.

I remember in the late 90s and early 00s metal units for fantasy were sold in boxes of 10 models for around 20€* (from 2002 to 2005 the price hiked up to 27€ or so). So in order to field a squad of 15 daemonettes you would need a box (about 20€), a command squad blister (12€) and another blister of 'normal' models (10€). That's around 42€ to me, which even a few years back when the Euro at its peak would have meant what, 55$? Unless GW was brutally screwing the US market, of course.

*Technically, in the late 90s the Euro was still not a thing in the streets, so speaking from memory regarding national currencies of the time.

Dont know if it was before boxed sets or the store just didnt have that many boxes but almost everything was sold in blister packs of 2-3 metal models even basic infantry.