Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I know that this has been done several times already, but I want to add my theory without actually looking through the archives.

Anyway, we all know that the 2nd and 11th disappeared from the record except to say that they existed initially. He is what I think is what happened.

The Emperor, in the process of making his Primarchs, one of the embryos split causing him to put them in separate gestation tubes. Just when the process was to be completed, the Ruinous Powers did the snatch and grab and gone were all of the Priimarchs. Now the Emperor had all the genetic material from his Primarchs in which to make their Legions but he could not make the 2nd and 11th Legions from the gene seeds of the twins because he was not certain of the outcome of twin Legions if he could not find both Primarchs. So he modified one set of gene seeds and combined them with gene seeds of the XIII which increased the size of the Ultramarines and he had enough to form the XXth in preparation for when he found Alpharius Omegon, or better yet Alpahrius and Omegon. Supporting evidence for this theory can be found on the Warhammer Wiki page for the XXth Legion and the novel "The First Heretic.

Comments? Discussion?

Not a bad hypothesis. Personnaly, I think they were early traitors (not aligned with the gods of Chaos) who were purged discreatly enough to make it undercover.

Personnaly I have turn traitor because she was a xeno-lover and the other one because he was cracking his own genecode and experimenting with mutations.

epronovost wrote:
Not a bad hypothesis. Personnaly, I think they were early traitors (not aligned with the gods of Chaos) who were purged discreatly enough to make it undercover.

Personnaly I have turn traitor because she was a xeno-lover and the other one because he was cracking his own genecode and experimenting with mutations.

Am I understanding you to say that the Emperor was loyal to the Chaos gods? And who is this female that you are mentioning that was a Xenos lover?

Well we have enough info to make guesses that one was erased due to mutations and junk, and the other did something terrible. The best hypothesis would be something having to do with xenos, because even the Chaos side comments how terrible they were.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well we have enough info to make guesses that one was erased due to mutations and junk, and the other did something terrible. The best hypothesis would be something having to do with xenos, because even the Chaos side comments how terrible they were.

Who are these Xenos that you mentioned? Where can I read about them?

 TDS92A wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Well we have enough info to make guesses that one was erased due to mutations and junk, and the other did something terrible. The best hypothesis would be something having to do with xenos, because even the Chaos side comments how terrible they were.

Who are these Xenos that you mentioned? Where can I read about them?

More of an inference really. Chaos traitors still call them both unforgivable and taboo to even talk about. If they were associated with Chaos, then we would have had the current 9 traitor Primarchs looking to them as examples and glorifying them for knowing the "truth" even before they did. But they don't so we can assume it's not that. With Xenos however, the traitors still see them as scum because the association with Xenos is seen by both sides as repulsive.

Both of the Primarchs were female.

Davor wrote:
Both of the Primarchs were female.

Please site your source for this statement. This is the first that I have heard of female Primarchs.

 TDS92A wrote:

Davor wrote:
Both of the Primarchs were female.

Please site your source for this statement. This is the first that I have heard of female Primarchs.

All records were expunged from the archives.

Well, we know that the Astartes Legions are based on the Roman Legions, of which two are known to exist yet without any records due to a disciplinary action that caused all records to be expunged. At a guess, those Roman legions rebelled against the Empire, were hunted down to a man, executed as an example, then removed from history as the ultimate punishment (because Roman culture was all about being remembered by your descendants). When applied to the Astartes, we can assume 2nd and 11th Legions refused to obey the Emperor and were put down by the Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists, ending with both Primarchs dead. The survivors appear to have been absorbed by the Imperial Firsts and the Ultramarines, the evidence being found in Rogue Trader were the Crimson Fists were originally a Legion, and the Ultramarines were a 3rd founding Chapter. The Space Wolves have also bragged about having killed one Legion before them were sent to Prospero. My personal belief is that only one of the Primarchs died, and was replaced by Gilliman, while other went into hiding with the Alpha Legion as it was being formed (Omegon). That would explain why we had 19 Primarchs over 18 Legions, and why two of the 20 are never spoken of. It would also explain why so many of the Primarchs hated their father, and were willing to commit fratricide.

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
Well, we know that the Astartes Legions are based on the Roman Legions, of which two are known to exist yet without any records due to a disciplinary action that caused all records to be expunged. At a guess, those Roman legions rebelled against the Empire, were hunted down to a man, executed as an example, then removed from history as the ultimate punishment (because Roman culture was all about being remembered by your descendants).

The problem with the fabled 'Roman' link, of course, being that its not actually accurate.

When applied to the Astartes, we can assume 2nd and 11th Legions refused to obey the Emperor and were put down by the Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists, ending with both Primarchs dead.

Sanguinius gives some fairly solid hints that at least one of the Lost Legions was simply the victim of flaws in their geneseed.

... the evidence being found in Rogue Trader were the Crimson Fists were originally a Legion, and the Ultramarines were a 3rd founding Chapter.

Fluff from Rogue Trader really isn't evidence of anything in the current game. Everything has moved on considerably from the RT roots.

It would also explain why so many of the Primarchs hated their father, and were willing to commit fratricide.

I think that's explained sufficiently by the fact that he's a bit of a knob, as is made quite clear in the Horus Heresy series.

I think the best example of the lost legions is a story like cain and abel.

Though GW will probably never actually explain what happened to them since mystery is always great for a story, allows people to make up their own fluff.

Well if the Space Wolves and the Imperial Fists had a hand in the destruction of the II and XI legions, maybe there will be novels released giving us the back story. Until then, I am sticking with my theory.

Its been stated that some Primarchs knew and had fought along side both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs and legions but were verboten from mentioning them ever again. I guess thats your theory out the window.

There was lessons to be learned in dealing with them. But we have the word of a daemon that the Wolve's were executioners, and a WB theorizing that was why the Ultras were successful. So could mean anything. Lost and the damned.
Damned could mean they were never going to follow the Imperial truth, perhaps they were a psyker heavy legion,

As for the 2nd, Its more likely the DA had them disposed off. They didnt have a problem getting rid of half their own legion. All the Wolf leadership has a crisis off conscious after Prospero, which points to them not having done anything like that before.

the ancient wrote:
Its been stated that some Primarchs knew and had fought along side both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs and legions but were verboten from mentioning them ever again. I guess thats your theory out the window.

There was lessons to be learned in dealing with them. But we have the word of a daemon that the Wolve's were executioners, and a WB theorizing that was why the Ultras were successful. So could mean anything. Lost and the damned.
Damned could mean they were never going to follow the Imperial truth, perhaps they were a psyker heavy legion,

As for the 2nd, Its more likely the DA had them disposed off. They didnt have a problem getting rid of half their own legion. All the Wolf leadership has a crisis off conscious after Prospero, which points to them not having done anything like that before.

Please site your sources for these revelations. Until then, my theory is as sound as was before.

We are told in Propero Burns that the Wolves had been used to kill a Legion before, which is what they were created for, and it was what they expected to do if the Thousand Sons did not stand down. That bit of information covers one of the two missing Legions.

The Roman connection comes straight from Gav Thorpe, who also informed us that GW has no intention to create a backstory for them, and really hate it when an author drops a hint regarding them.

The RT connection shows were GW was going at first, which paints an interesting picture when compared to where GW went with the fluff. This leaves open the ability to create a narrative on why the change occurred. It can't be discounted because it's in print, was never recanted, and has not yet been fully retconned. Even the HH novels do not fully retcon the RT material, as it borrows heavily from it.

SJ

Don't remember if this was just an old fan theory or not, But I heard somewhere that the "Lost" Primarch was literally just that.

Lost. They never found him. And he ended up becoming Sigmar in WHFB because the WHFB planet was either right on the edge of the Eye of Terror( or in the eye of terror) and the Imperium just never found him.

The whole "Ultramarines swelling in size" thing is just a Word Bearers rumor that they spread because they are the second largest legion and seem to be jealous that their rivals- the Ultramarines- are larger than them. So they like to say that the Ultramarines just absorbed one or more of the Lost Legions. I personally just attribute their size to the administrative abilities of their primarch and the huge number of planets they lord over that gives them the largest recruiting pool.

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It can't be discounted because it's in print, was never recanted, and has not yet been fully retconned.

Sure it can. The rest of the fluff has moved on well past the point where anything from Rogue Trader that hasn't been specifically mentioned in more recent publications can be pretty safely ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Don't remember if this was just an old fan theory or not, But I heard somewhere that the "Lost" Primarch was literally just that.

Lost. They never found him. And he ended up becoming Sigmar in WHFB because the WHFB planet was either right on the edge of the Eye of Terror( or in the eye of terror) and the Imperium just never found him.

The Sigmar thing has long been a fan theory, but the Studio has been saying for years now that it was not so, and from second edition 40k onwards the link between 40k and Fantasy has been simply that they share some common elements, rather than that they are supposed to be in the same universe.

 TDS92A wrote:

Davor wrote:
Both of the Primarchs were female.

Please site your source for this statement. This is the first that I have heard of female Primarchs.

I thought with me having a smily face with tongue sticking out, people would know I was joking.

I liked how we had 2 "missing" legions back in the day because that would allow a lot of people make their own chapters back in the day. Now it's frowned apon using them as your back story, but I don't see why. Some people can make great fluff so this way in your own 40K universe you can make your own legion/chapter and Primarch.

just some stuff from the official novels to add to the conversation;

At the very minimum, the legions were expunged 43 years before istvaan V

In the first heretic, Lorgar was said to be the chosen primarch for chaos, the first to be enlightened, so I think we can thoroughly rule out chaos influence.

We know that he had a strong relationship with at least one missing primarchs. The Gal Vorbak wanted to kill one of them in its gestation pod to spare their primarch the pain of its actions.

I forget which novel it was, I think it was fear to tread, Sanguinius confesses his worries to Horus that his chapter will be purged if word reached the emperor about his legions flaw, the red thirst.

Marine on marine combat NEVER happened (at least at a purging level). This is referenced in both Horus Rising and The First Heretic when characters marvel at the idea of such a thing being possible. The space wolves are thought to have killed one legion, but really they had fought the world eaters in the Night of the Wolf, which is why they reference fighting another legion before.

 TDS92A wrote:

the ancient wrote:
Its been stated that some Primarchs knew and had fought along side both the 2nd and 11th Primarchs and legions but were verboten from mentioning them ever again. I guess thats your theory out the window.

Please site your sources for these revelations. Until then, my theory is as sound as was before.

4th ed. CSM codex page 7-

"...as the Great Crusade spread out from Earth, the Space Marines rediscovered the first of the Primarchs, and as the legions reclaimed more worlds, eventually all of the Primarchs were found..."

Davor wrote:Both of the Primarchs were female.

Davor wrote:Both of the Primarchs were female.

When I replied to this it was from my phone and it did not show the Ork smiley that you posted to your message.

Having said that, It would seem that we have some good theories about the missing Legions. Some a little wilder than the others. Which begs the questions; since two were destroyed and removed from the record, why not create two more and replace them? Why leave evidence showing that they existed in the first place?

Davor wrote:

I liked how we had 2 "missing" legions back in the day because that would allow a lot of people make their own chapters back in the day. Now it's frowned apon using them as your back story, but I don't see why. Some people can make great fluff so this way in your own 40K universe you can make your own legion/chapter and Primarch.

They were never there specifically for people to create their own Chapters. That was facilitated by the Founding setup that allowed you to base your Chapter of any of the originals you choose. The Lost Legions were just there to add a bit of flavour to the background.

Using them as a basis for homebrew Chapters became 'frowned upon' simply because it was adopted by every second player who wanted to have a bit of mystery in their background, and it got a bit tedious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TDS92A wrote:
Which begs the questions; since two were destroyed and removed from the record, why not create two more and replace them?

Presumably because either the process that created the first 20 couldn't be easily recreated, or the big E decided that 18(well, 19) would be enough.

http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Primarchs

As for why he didn't create more legions, marines were derived from their respective primarch. It's strongly implied that the Big Es experiments were a one time deal with some help from chaos

insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:

I liked how we had 2 "missing" legions back in the day because that would allow a lot of people make their own chapters back in the day. Now it's frowned apon using them as your back story, but I don't see why. Some people can make great fluff so this way in your own 40K universe you can make your own legion/chapter and Primarch.

They were never there specifically for people to create their own Chapters. That was facilitated by the Founding setup that allowed you to base your Chapter of any of the originals you choose. The Lost Legions were just there to add a bit of flavour to the background.

Using them as a basis for homebrew Chapters became 'frowned upon' simply because it was adopted by every second player who wanted to have a bit of mystery in their background, and it got a bit tedious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TDS92A wrote:
Which begs the questions; since two were destroyed and removed from the record, why not create two more and replace them?

Presumably because either the process that created the first 20 couldn't be easily recreated, or the big E decided that 18(well, 19) would be enough.

What is this 19th Legion that you mentioned?

insaniak wrote:

Davor wrote:

I liked how we had 2 "missing" legions back in the day because that would allow a lot of people make their own chapters back in the day. Now it's frowned apon using them as your back story, but I don't see why. Some people can make great fluff so this way in your own 40K universe you can make your own legion/chapter and Primarch.

They were never there specifically for people to create their own Chapters. That was facilitated by the Founding setup that allowed you to base your Chapter of any of the originals you choose. The Lost Legions were just there to add a bit of flavour to the background.

Using them as a basis for homebrew Chapters became 'frowned upon' simply because it was adopted by every second player who wanted to have a bit of mystery in their background, and it got a bit tedious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TDS92A wrote:
Which begs the questions; since two were destroyed and removed from the record, why not create two more and replace them?

Presumably because either the process that created the first 20 couldn't be easily recreated, or the big E decided that 18(well, 19) would be enough.

HoundsofDemos wrote:http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Lost_Primarchs

As for why he didn't create more legions, marines were derived from their respective primarch. It's strongly implied that the Big Es experiments were a one time deal with some help from chaos

What was the Emperor supposed to give Chaos for their assistance? As I am reading in "The First Heretic", it says that the Emperor did not live up to his bargain with the powers of Chaos and the in turn did the snatch and grab on the remaining 18.

I'm presuming some level of worship or converting humanity to chaos? That's the one thing all the gods crave.

The 19th Primarch is a reference to Alpharius and Omegon, since they are twins.

The bit about the Emperor and Chaos in the first heretic, from what i recall is a left over bit from when Horus was approached by the Gods during his feverish dreams after the incident on Davin.

Where you had the Chaos Gods showing him an altered and twisted version of what happened when the Primarchs where scattered through the galaxy.

In this scene you see the Emperor watch in silence and with a stern gaze the cryo-tubes of the primarchs getting swalloed in the warp, without even flinching, in wich Horus in his ethearal form sees his tubes and his borhters tubes, where he explains seeing a tube with 2 forms in the liquid ( Alpharius and Omegon), and one that had a damaged tube ( Sanguinus).

Now the theories are that either the Emperor had struck a deal of some sort with the Gods, wich i find really unlikely since,...well the Emperor is basicallt the Anathem of Chaos and their nemesis.

Or that the Emperor foresaw, that the Gods would try something and that ther was nothing he could do about it, or simply that the scattering of the Primarchs was in his calculations, since it was the perfect excuse to start the great Crusade, and that when finding his Sons back, he would have loyal servants with them and the ressources of their Worlds.

 insaniak wrote:

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It can't be discounted because it's in print, was never recanted, and has not yet been fully retconned.

Sure it can. The rest of the fluff has moved on well past the point where anything from Rogue Trader that hasn't been specifically mentioned in more recent publications can be pretty safely ignored.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Iur_tae_mont wrote:
Don't remember if this was just an old fan theory or not, But I heard somewhere that the "Lost" Primarch was literally just that.

Lost. They never found him. And he ended up becoming Sigmar in WHFB because the WHFB planet was either right on the edge of the Eye of Terror( or in the eye of terror) and the Imperium just never found him.

The Sigmar thing has long been a fan theory, but the Studio has been saying for years now that it was not so, and from second edition 40k onwards the link between 40k and Fantasy has been simply that they share some common elements, rather than that they are supposed to be in the same universe.

Have they been retconned into separate universes or separate universes connected by the warp?

TD - Alpharius and Omegon, twin Primarchs. So there are (at HH) 19 primarchs around.