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Before someone mentions it: yes, I know we've already had our bi-monthly CSM update thread.

So I've been working on this thing on and off for the last year and a bit...
It's pretty massive so I've separated it into 4 sections: the wargear list, the army list, the unique detachment and the appendix.
I suggest if you want to use this you either print out the pages you need or just stick to the electronic version. While some of the wargear has kept the same rules many others have been changed in some way or another. On top of that more have been added.

Any feedback is welcome as I'm sure I've made spelling or grammar errors that I've missed while editing this 88 page beast.
If you feel anything is too powerful, awkward or overcosted please let me know. It's really only been myself and a few friends play testing this and thing we may think work well could be broken.


Here are the links:

The Appendix - 1.8 MB

The Army List - 1 MB

The Chaos Incursion Force Detachment - 390 KB

The Wargear List - 450 KB

Thanks for looking!
Matt.Kingsley

The Nurgle mark is FAR underpowered compared to the others. A 6+++ isn't going to be worth it.

Tbh, you're probably right.

Just did some quick Maths and yeah... Feel No Pain (6+) is way less powerful than I thought compared to T5.

Ah well, that shouldn't be too hard of a change to fix, since that was only changed from T5 in the last version or two. I'll just rechange all the Nurgle-related stuff from there (changing the Mark also means changing the Legacy of War and Plague Cult rules).

Berserkers treat all vehicles as assault.
Possession as an upgrade for all models except when it conflicts with the fluff. I.E. thousand sons

Not really sure that change for Bezerkers in needed, since vehicles can just take Dedicated to Khorne and become Assault Vehicles. (And as far as I am aware, all the transports FW has are already Assault Vehicles)

Also not really sure about possession as an upgrade, since the Daemonkin can be used to represent a possessed HQ (or rather, that's what it is) and the Possessed themselves are suited enough for Infantry. I don't really see Possessed as the kind of being who would carry around a heavy weapon.


In any case, the Nurgle changes should be uploading now.

Change log

I have been playing Chaos since 4th edition.

Honestly, you just have to accept them as they are. They are meant to lose to the good guys.

You are just going thru the stages of grief. Denial, Anger, Depression, Bargaining. You are bargaining to make the CSM into something they are not. Competitive.

You need to just accept it and move on by playing a new army.

In the mean time, you can mess around with Khorne Daemonkin, Daemons, Renegades and Heretics, Warmachines of the lost and the damned.

 Filch wrote:
I have been playing Chaos since 4th edition.

Honestly, you just have to accept them as they are. They are meant to lose to the good guys.

You are just going thru the stages of grief. Denial, Anger, Depression, Bargaining. You are bargaining to make the CSM into something they are not. Competitive.

You need to just accept it and move on by playing a new army.

In the mean time, you can mess around with Khorne Daemonkin, Daemons, Renegades and Heretics, Warmachines of the lost and the damned.

Wrong section to post this.

Also, I didn't even realize your Typhus didn't even have FNP.

Well he technically did before because he had Mark of Nurgle, but with me changing it back to granting Toughness I had to put it in his profile.

So rereading, without having gone over the appendix:
1. Talos is clearly supposed to be part of the Night Lords and such. Maybe he should be your Jump Pack character.
2. Kranon having been a Chapter Master, maybe he should have access to some form of Orbital Bombardment?
3. I don't really see any reason to have separate entries for Dreads and Helbrutes. For all intents and purposes, Helbrutes are Dreads.
4. Bikers don't have access to Plague or Rubric cults?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Talos is clearly supposed to be part of the Night Lords and such. Maybe he should be your Jump Pack character.

Talos is based off the character of the same name from the Night Lords novels by ADB and I don't remember him ever having a jump pack...
That said, this is a good idea. I probably won't give it to him by default, but I'll let him purchase one.

2. Kranon having been a Chapter Master, maybe he should have access to some form of Orbital Bombardment?

Sounds good. I'll probably just give him the World Burner Warlord trait (which gives the Warlord an Orbital Bombardment attack).

3. I don't really see any reason to have separate entries for Dreads and Helbrutes. For all intents and purposes, Helbrutes are Dreads.

True, though having them as two separate units was based off how Helbrutes look really daemonic - like a possessed dreadnought - and the thought that it'd be cool to represent this.
Then the normal dread was made because it's unlikely that every dread has become possessed.

I do see your point, though. I could probably just remove the entry and make an upgrade for the Dread that gives them Daemonic Possession, Hatred and Crazed while losing Fallen Astartes.

4. Bikers don't have access to Plague or Rubric cults?

This was intended. It's based off how in the old 3.5 dex Bikers couldn't take MoT or MoN.
Havocs can't get Bezerker for the same reason (though Havocs can get Rubric because I thought it made sense for them to be able to given that they can now take heavy bolters.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. Talos is clearly supposed to be part of the Night Lords and such. Maybe he should be your Jump Pack character.

Talos is based off the character of the same name from the Night Lords novels by ADB and I don't remember him ever having a jump pack...
That said, this is a good idea. I probably won't give it to him by default, but I'll let him purchase one.

2. Kranon having been a Chapter Master, maybe he should have access to some form of Orbital Bombardment?

Sounds good. I'll probably just give him the World Burner Warlord trait (which gives the Warlord an Orbital Bombardment attack).

3. I don't really see any reason to have separate entries for Dreads and Helbrutes. For all intents and purposes, Helbrutes are Dreads.

True, though having them as two separate units was based off how Helbrutes look really daemonic - like a possessed dreadnought - and the thought that it'd be cool to represent this.
Then the normal dread was made because it's unlikely that every dread has become possessed.

I do see your point, though. I could probably just remove the entry and make an upgrade for the Dread that gives them Daemonic Possession, Hatred and Crazed while losing Fallen Astartes.

4. Bikers don't have access to Plague or Rubric cults?

This was intended. It's based off how in the old 3.5 dex Bikers couldn't take MoT or MoN.
Havocs can't get Bezerker for the same reason (though Havocs can get Rubric because I thought it made sense for them to be able to given that they can now take heavy bolters.

1. I didn't know who Talos was, so my apologies. The SM codex has plenty of JP characters though, and I just figured it was a good idea, because stereotypical Night Lords.
2. I'm glad you liked this idea.
3. You could just have Possessed as an option for Dreads to buy. That ought to be enough just to save entries that seem unneeded.
4. I guess I understand this to an extent. Not all new followers of Chaos would be like this though. If a White Scars successor went the way of Nurgle, I'm pretty sure something like that wouldn't stop them. I guess I'll leave this one alone for now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
OH! I also just realized that the Crimson Slaughter are supposed to be Drop Pod masters or something. Maybe adding a tax to him and he grants Drop Pod access?

No need to apologise for not knowing who Talos it.

Ok, I've given Talos the ability to take a jump pack, given Kranon the World Burner trait and removed the Helbrute entry, instead making it an upgrade.

Hopefully the upload should finish soon.

And just to formalise it...
Change Log



Tbh I've never heard about the Crimson Slaughter being drop pod assault masters...
*1 quick Google search later*
Huh, so they are, or rather were. Now they just care about slaughter because of the voices in their heads. Maybe I'll give him a special rule that helps Deep Strikes... dunno.

It would be sorta like from the 3.5 codex where one certain army granted you Imperial toys.

Honestly?, BEST. HOMEBREW. CODEX. EVER.

Not only is it flavorfull, but its somewhat balanced and not only you can field one of the Traitor Legions, but with the Legacies of Chaos you can make a DIY Warband.

Just a few things i've noticed, the Legacy that gives you Hatred Dark angles, isn't it redundant if on units that are VotLW?

So maybe give this Legacy Prefered Ennemy Dark Angels?

i was kinda trhowed off when i saw the rule for Malefic weaponry and Melta, since it does exactly the same thing, but i guess its to bypass the Ceramic plating rule?

Also maybe change the Lesser Deamon weapons to a D3 A roll and on a 1 you divide your WS by 2, rounded to the lower?

I always though that Lasher tendrils should also act like assault grenades.

I like the new kharn, even if 220pts is a bit much, and i would have liked it more like 200, but EW, rerolls of 1's to wound, hit and hit on 2+, with 6A+Rage+Rampage and a 2+ armor and 4++, make him one of the most Killy character there is.

I love the Chosen/Termis and Possesed new units.

I feel that to reflect the Beast like nature of the Maulerfiend, it should at least have an Init of 4, in my mind a maulerfiend is possesed by a particularly ferocious and vicious Alpha Flesh hound or by a whole pack of them crammed in the machine.

i like the Deamon Engine damage chart though.

Finally Warp talons are playable.

Not so sure about the inclusion of Land speeders personally.

I like the formations.

Kinda dissapointed that there is no weapon variants for the Land Raider.

All in All i really like this, keep up the good work.

Thank you Slayer le boucher, I'm glad you like it so much!
You're too kind .

Angel Enmity was made more or less for the Crimson Slaughter (and then appropriated for the Fallen when I decided to put Cypher and Be'lakor in the 'dex), but it probably is a bit too redundant for VoTLW.
But preferred enemy works, too, though it currently also grants Stubborn (which was meant to be the main benefit with Hatred (Dark Angels) being thrown in on the side for fluffiness).

The Malefic Weaponry upgrade for Melta also allows them to roll 2D6 at 12".

Not entirely sure about the change for lesser daemon weapons tbh. It does make sense for them to be worse in that regard too, but I really don't want to have 2 seperate Daemon Weapon rules in what is already a very rules-heavy homebrew dex.

Interesting thought about Lasher Tendrils... It does make sense.
Thanks for the idea!

I suppose I could remove Ramage and decrease the amount for kills necessary for Champion of Khorne to make Kharn cost 200 points, though I've always felt Rampage is such a fitting rule for him.

I4 for the Maulerfiend also makes sense. Dunno why I didn't think of that.

Land Speeder were added mainly because the original legions had access to them (as do recent renegades) so in my mind it made sense to have them.

There was a Land Raider variant in one of the earlier drafts, but it was removed because it just didn't feel right.
Then there wasn't any inspiration for what an alternate loadout could be... That said I'm open to ideas about new weapon variants.

@ Slayer-Fan123

I'll think about it, though tbh I don't see the need for Drop Pods when the Icon of Exile exists (basically a less-reliable Drop Pod as an icon).
I suppose I could add it in and remove the icon, then maybe make a new Legacy that gives access to Drop Pods as DTs?

Also speaking a the Icon of Exile I just noticed there's a typo in its entry. It's meant to come in on a 4+ but currently it's in a 5+ with a 4 putting it in limbo...

I've always though that an interesting load out for Land Raider would like this.

Can exchange its twinlinked heavy Bolters for Reaper AC for free or a Baleflamer for +20pts.
Can exchange the lascannons sponsons with- Hades Autocanon for +15pts
- Ectoplasma for +20pts
Or nothing and add 5 to the transport capacity of the LR for free.

Can also add one Multimelta as a pintle mounted weapon for +10pts

Something of the sort.

Sounds good. Thank you

I dunno, the PE: Dark Angels seems rather underpowered compared to anything else. Would I really pay the tax to have that instead of something else just to run Cypher or Kranon?

Well it does also give stubborn.

Admittedly Stubborn isn't terrible amazing when you could just spend 40 odd points to get Fearless, but those 40 points do add up.

Stubborn is alright, of course. More Dark Angels hurting isn't great though. Notice nobody takes Deathwing for the most part? Is it worth the expense to hurt a VERY specific army more?

Any plans to have a look at the joke that is the Lord of Skulls

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I dunno, the PE: Dark Angels seems rather underpowered compared to anything else. Would I really pay the tax to have that instead of something else just to run Cypher or Kranon?

Prefered ennemy is overall beter then Hate.

Works in shooting AND melee, works all the time.

Hate; works only in melee, and only during the first combat round, so you use it max 2 or 3 times during the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

StarHunter25 wrote:
Any plans to have a look at the joke that is the Lord of Skulls

LoS might be best at 431pts( adds the numbers it makes 8, still has the favored number), and boost his WS to 6 and init to 4.

Funny that you had the same idea I had about dividing the Helbrute from the Dreadnought - I'm using the exact same idea in my game. I'm also using the idea that almost every model can be possessed. I wonder if these are more common thoughts, than one would think.

Having read the whole thing, it is a very strong rewrite and close to a professional level. But to give some constructive criticism, I think it lacks simplicity. I understand you were trying to be comprehensive but it's a bit like being a cook, sometimes less is more.

I think a cleaner way to lay out the various Chaos factions would be:

- CSM - Undivided
- Khorne Daemonkin
- Tzeentch Daemonkin
- Slaneesh Daemonkin
- Nurgle Daemonkin
- Chaos Daemons
- FW Renegades + Heretics

You want armies to have a certain degree of predictability and even-handedness. Constraints are very important for opponents, to understand how to play against certain armies. You don't necessarily need 6x psychic powers for each different god. You don't need to have 23 different "Chapter Tactics" that can be combined in 253 different ways. I don't think you need to add a 5th mark, more than 5 Icons, or more than 5x Cult Troops (essentially the existing types + Chosen). I don't think you need Volkite weapons, Grav variants or Malefic ammo, or lesser Daemon weapons. 1x axe, 1x sword, and 1x maul as relics are enough to offer a very clear choice and CSM already has a ton of unique weapons that you're also building upon. I don't think you need two effects from the champion rule, a champion roll, and then another gift table. Same with the choices of HQs, at 1st glance there is a lot of crossover between a ML1 Warmonger and a Sorcerer Lord, and if you can eventually ally Daemonkin Heralds there isn't much point in a redundant CSM non-aligned Daemonkin. These ideas taken separately are all functional and interesting, but together there is a very real risk of overload and a lack of discrete choices.

I miss the Chaos Boon table a little too, the lack of ways to mitigate poor results frustrated players but it had a lot of flavor. Maybe roll two results and pick one could have saved it, or a better global bonus from the Apostle. But that is more of a personal sidenote.

Don't get me wrong -- you have a fantastic core and very good layout and organization. This is a very, very strong product and it is going in the right direction. It is just a little too busy. This is like writing -- if you reduce the things you can live without, the core of what's left is going to be stronger. Reluctance to add new content will also focus more of your attention to existing faction content that can be used more effectively, like existing Cult weapons and more complex interactions with Dirge Casters or Destroyer Blades. Or forgotten items like the Dimensional Key.

There's also certain ways to attack LD in this codex that may become issues at a certain point. Chaos Champions in challenges with an Icon resolve combat at +2 already, it's fairly easy to stack -3 LD onto multiple enemies with Formations. I actually *love* LD warfare and it's *so* appropriate for CSM, but there is a certain risk that this it may be too strong, especially with Be'lakor as part of a formation and such widespread access to pinning. Also did you add a Pinning weapon that doesn't require a test? Be careful with that one. Balance is easier to adjust than anything else but the more complex your content is, the more you risk missing 2nd order interactions.

All-in-all I think it's very playable, thematically appropriate, respectful of the fluff, well-balanced for the most part, and I think it would be as strong as anything GW has made with a little refinement. So basically, well done.

In my opinion, this is a very strong rewrite that seems, at first blush, to bring CSM up to the same kind of power level as other post-Necron 7e armies.

One thing that I really like is that assault appears to be very effective for Chaos, though not in the way one would think. You can still sit back and shoot, or get up close and shoot - but opponents will definitely think twice about the risk of getting charged, because there's a lot of stuff that's just brutal in melee.

One concern is that Warpflame Gargoyles granting Ignores Cover may make them an auto-take, and may also make them just slightly too effective against armies that rely on cover for survival (Tyranids, Harlequins and Dark Eldar come to mind immediately). Most of the rest looks reasonable to me, with nothing else that stands out on first read as either broken or horrifically underpowered, though I think Warp Talons are still too expensive. (That said, the fact that their drop-in-and-"blind" trick is better now, and they can assault out of Deep Strike, may make them worth the points.)

I see Yoyoyo's point about the busyness of the Legacies of Chaos - that's a little convoluted, though it does offer a ton of customization. As for the Horus Heresy-era Grav and Volkite, I'm OK with those, though I might be inclined to make grav into the same grav that Loyalists are using. For fluff, I'd wave hands vigorously and say "psykers, thieves and Warp weirdness", because grav would give Chaos a counter for GCs, which they'd currently have a big problem with.