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 Furyou Miko wrote:
Dark Eldar do it because they enjoy it too - the fact that it can sustain them and they think (erroneously) that it will protect them from Slaanesh is just a bonus. They're just as capable of using Soulstones and living according to the Paths as the Craftworld Eldar are.

Remember, its the Haemonculus' cloning/ressurection technology that keeps the Dark Eldar out of the hands of Slaanesh in the end, not the torture porn.

The torture doesn't save their souls from Slaanesh when they die, but it does stop them from aging and replenishes their youth. What the Homunculi do is just that taken to a logical extreme, the same with the gladiatorial fights the DE stage.

So they actually need it to lead the lives that they do. And yes, they theoretically could do what the Craftworld Eldar do but they won't and can't because that's what makes them Dark Eldar. So they don't really have a choice if they're to unrepentantly continue their hedonistic ways that make them what they are. This is actually all touched on in the codex and the video series above. What I've said here is essentially just paraphrased.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The Orks are an essential part of the setting.

No, they are not.

Well obviously the two essential factions for the setting to work are the Imperium and Chaos but it wouldn't be 40k without the other races. The Orks are just as essential as the Eldar and much more than factions like the Tau.

Oh and most Ork players would disagree with you so

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Dark Eldar do it because they enjoy it too - the fact that it can sustain them and they think (erroneously) that it will protect them from Slaanesh is just a bonus. They're just as capable of using Soulstones and living according to the Paths as the Craftworld Eldar are.

Remember, its the Haemonculus' cloning/ressurection technology that keeps the Dark Eldar out of the hands of Slaanesh in the end, not the torture porn.

The torture doesn't save their souls from Slaanesh when they die, but it does stop them from aging and replenishes their youth. What the Homunculi do is just that taken to a logical extreme, the same with the gladiatorial fights the DE stage.

So they actually need it to lead the lives that they do. And yes, they theoretically could do what the Craftworld Eldar do but they won't and can't because that's what makes them Dark Eldar. So they don't really have a choice if they're to unrepentantly continue their hedonistic ways that make them what they are. This is actually all touched on in the codex and the video series above. What I've said here is essentially just paraphrased.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The Orks are an essential part of the setting.

No, they are not.

Well obviously the two essential factions for the setting to work are the Imperium and Chaos but it wouldn't be 40k without the other races. The Orks are just as essential as the Eldar and much more than factions like the Tau.

Oh and most Ork players would disagree with you so

Spoiler:

What this guy said. I don't even play Orks and I think they're essential to 40K.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Nah, Orks are still Orks. One need only look at their Codex to see that they're a joke. Nothing that wasn't already present in Drow has been added to Dark Eldar. The major difference between the two is the trappings of their respective settings. Drow are fantasy, Dark Eldar are sci-fi.

Well I disagree. The Orks are an essential part of the setting. If you haven't been keeping up and choose to limit yourself to certain factions, that's hardly the fault of the setting.

The 5th ed codex brought a lot of changes to the DE. With 3rd ed you could legitimately say they're just WHFB Dark Elves in space or Drow in space, but they've changed since then. Also, there's a fundamental difference on why they inflict suffering - drow and dark elves don't do it to sustain themselves and to evade Slaanesh, they do it because they enjoy it, and for no bigger reason. So while the Dark Eldar may claim they're free to do as they like, they really have no choice.

And fantasy, especially DnD orcs are very different from 40k Orks. For one, they don't reproduce through spores and have females. Squigs and grots also grow from the same spores 40k Orks grow from so there's something weirder going on. And they don't have the psychic gestalt consciousness that Orks have when they gather in large numbers. They don't grow larger from combat and have average to short life-spans in most fantasy settings. And they're mostly not very green and rather hairy. They're also not genetically engineered to fight and worship chaotic deities. There's no concept of the Waaagh! etc.

You're talking about trappings and setting-specific aspects, especially in regards to the Drow/Dark Eldar. The whys and wherefores of their infliction of suffering is immaterial... whatever their reasons, both factions (Drow and DEldar) do it. This does not make the DEldar "unique", it's simply putting a 40K spin on something already present in the source material.

The sporeoid Ork thing is also a "ret-con" of sorts in 40K, as there was once Ork females, families, and all that sort of thing in earlier additions. Most Orks in 40k have very short life-spans, and few to no Orks die of natural causes. Of course, them being "space-fungi" might be sourced from H.P. Lovecraft's "fungi of Yuggoth" in his Cthulhu mythos and simply mixed into the normal orcoid barbarism and soccer hooliganism (who are also barbarians).

 Psienesis wrote:
You're talking about trappings and setting-specific aspects, especially in regards to the Drow/Dark Eldar. The whys and wherefores of their infliction of suffering is immaterial... whatever their reasons, both factions (Drow and DEldar) do it. This does not make the DEldar "unique", it's simply putting a 40K spin on something already present in the source material.

The sporeoid Ork thing is also a "ret-con" of sorts in 40K, as there was once Ork females, families, and all that sort of thing in earlier additions. Most Orks in 40k have very short life-spans, and few to no Orks die of natural causes. Of course, them being "space-fungi" might be sourced from H.P. Lovecraft's "fungi of Yuggoth" in his Cthulhu mythos and simply mixed into the normal orcoid barbarism and soccer hooliganism (who are also barbarians).

That was my point to begin with, you might recall. By themselves the concepts may not seem that interesting or original but when adapted to the setting, they become something more. In my opinion that makes them unique.

Retcon or not is irrelevant. That's what they are now and have been for a while. A concept isn't static and doesn't mean what it was on its inception cannot change and evolve, as the concept of the Orks has. Fungi of Yuggoth seems like a stretch as it's about something else entirely, but perhaps. I don't know where the creators got all their inspirations from and I'm not familiar enough 'with HP Lovecraft so anything is possible.

Still, if you think the 40k concept of Orks isn't original just because it has its roots in other sources (just like those others sources have their roots in yet others - orcs didn't just pop into Tolkien's head without prior inspiration after all) - then you'll find that there's a fundamental difference of opinion here.

 the_kraken wrote:

What this guy said. I don't even play Orks and I think they're essential to 40K.

Thanks

I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them. Plus there isn't anything more 40k than the wars on Armageddon.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Dark Eldar do it because they enjoy it too - the fact that it can sustain them and they think (erroneously) that it will protect them from Slaanesh is just a bonus. They're just as capable of using Soulstones and living according to the Paths as the Craftworld Eldar are.

Remember, its the Haemonculus' cloning/ressurection technology that keeps the Dark Eldar out of the hands of Slaanesh in the end, not the torture porn.

The torture doesn't save their souls from Slaanesh when they die, but it does stop them from aging and replenishes their youth. What the Homunculi do is just that taken to a logical extreme, the same with the gladiatorial fights the DE stage.

So they actually need it to lead the lives that they do. And yes, they theoretically could do what the Craftworld Eldar do but they won't and can't because that's what makes them Dark Eldar. So they don't really have a choice if they're to unrepentantly continue their hedonistic ways that make them what they are. This is actually all touched on in the codex and the video series above. What I've said here is essentially just paraphrased.

So your argument is that "it's okay to be rampantly aggressive complete monsters because they shouldn't have to give up their culture."? Way to take moral relativism to its logical-but-utterly-idiotic extreme.

 Furyou Miko wrote:

So your argument is that "it's okay to be rampantly aggressive complete monsters because they shouldn't have to give up their culture."? Way to take moral relativism to is logical-but-utterly-idiotic extreme.

Okay, I'm confused here. Are you sure you're understanding me correctly? The Dark Eldar will not change their ways - that's what makes them Dark Eldar. They're the ones who started the Eldar on the path that brought on their downfall. Even after the Fall, they refused to change their hedonistic ways and so lost all hope of redemption a long time ago.

Somewhere deep inside, they're all well aware that they're doomed to an eternity of suffering at the hands of Slaanesh - but they refuse to acknowledge it so they stave it off as long as possible by inflicting suffering on others. This also has the effect of averting Slaanesh's attention and allows them to keep living the way they do. So no, they don't really have a choice any longer.

Now that's not me condoning their ways - I'm just explaining why they do what they do - as the developers themselves do in the video series I posted. And in the codex. So yea, I'm not sure I'm being idiotic by repeating what the fluff says.

And of course a few rare individuals will join the Craftworld Eldar and vice versa, but most of them won't, as just the majority of Imperial citizens won't join the Tau Empire in search of another way. These are the exception rather than the rule.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them.

...I still can't see how a faction that relies entirely on dank memes ayyyyyy to justify its existence is in any way integral.

It's not original as much as a twisted version of a old idea, but i have always loved the way 40k has described warp travel. The dangers and the extreme risk you take by momentarily going into Hell to get where you want to be.

This image explains it perfectly:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them.

...I still can't see how a faction that relies entirely on dank memes ayyyyyy to justify its existence is in any way integral.

Which "dank" memes would these be?

 the Signless wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them.

...I still can't see how a faction that relies entirely on dank memes ayyyyyy to justify its existence is in any way integral.

Which "dank" memes would these be?

Red ones go faster.
Orks never lose.
The tech explodes constantly! Slapstick! And they kill everything anyway because xdddd! Top humor.

Orks are pretty embarrassing, honestly.

@Nordicus that's an absolute classic.

So what about the Astronomican? The whole huge lighthouse in space thing should have been done previously but I can't think of an example. All the other ideas I presented have been proven wrong.

Also, concerning DE/drow, the underdwelling elves date as far back as the Asgard religion. Literally evil elves that lived underground and did various horrible things.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 the Signless wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:

 EngulfedObject wrote:
I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them.

...I still can't see how a faction that relies entirely on dank memes ayyyyyy to justify its existence is in any way integral.

Which "dank" memes would these be?

Red ones go faster.
Orks never lose.
The tech explodes constantly! Slapstick! And they kill everything anyway because xdddd! Top humor.

Orks are pretty embarrassing, honestly.

Yes, it is clear that orks are oversimplified if you are willing to ignore most of their background and instead choose to latch onto a few of their most superficial traits. In the same vein of thought, Ultramarines are just ROMANS IN SPACE!!!, necrons and tyranids are just Terminator and Alien expys, and tau are just anime junk.

If you would read some of the background besides one to two sentence blurbs and the results on your reddit page, it becomes more clear that orks are actually a fairly well developed alien race. Orks are shown to have their own culture that is structurally similar to a meritocracy, placing high value on the boy's strengths. While individual orks tend to fight, the orks as a whole are bound together by innate psychic powers, causing them to flock to the biggest and strongest orks as natural leaders. These psychic fields reach a fever pitch in WAAAGH! events, causing orks and meks across the land to begin preparing for war. The different ork tribes are also explored, with each having their own traditions and beliefs. Orks are also one of the only races in the setting (the only other one that I can think of are the tau) that are actively developing and testing new technologies, with one of their most recent inventions being a reliable teleporter.

Orks do use two of those phrases, but they do not define the entire race, just like chaos space marines are more than "death to the false emperor".

Maybe next time, you should actually read some of the background material before you condemn them.

I used to be an Ork player back in 5th-6th and I owned 3000 points of Orks before I donated them to a friend. I know very well what I am talking about. All the filler in the codex lore section was just that, filler, because it was never relevant anywhere else and it would have made no difference if it had been just blank pages.

The Orks are an entire species of individuals with identical personalities. Other than some superficial and barely at all relevant differences (some care more about riches than others, some like speed more than others) all of them like and dislike the same things. They are onedimensional to a degree comparable to the Oldcrons and 100% predictable, which makes them boring.

And the Oldcrons at least had the C'tan.

You've must have never played any 40k video games almost all which co-star orks. They are both in and out of universe the most common enemy of the setting.

Additionally one of 40ks world wide campaign is set Armageddon against Orks, lead by an Ork who is going lead a galaxy wide Waaaagh and Orks have been in several starting sets/campaign books. Orks are one of the most unique and essential armies in the game.

They are prevalent because they are useful punching bags.

And because they are usually sent in as the enemy you slaughter before the REAL threat of Chaos/Tyranids/etc shows up. See Dawn of War/Dawn of War 2/Space Marine.

That is a job generic Imperial rebels could just as easily fill.

But not nearly with much fun or style. Orks run on Refuge in Audacity. That's what drew me to orks in the first place. Every other faction is either grim and depressed or in the case of the Tau, naive. In a universe that is filled with so much evil and insanity, Orks are happy

The Orks are the pinnacle of creation. For them, the great struggle is won. They have evolved a society which knows no stress or angst. Who are we to judge them? We Eldar who have failed, or the Humans, on the road to ruin in their turn? And why? Because we sought answers to questions that an Ork wouldn't even bother to ask! We see a culture that is strong and despise it as crude.

Quote from an eldar farseer and one of my favorite 40k quotes.

 EngulfedObject wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
You're talking about trappings and setting-specific aspects, especially in regards to the Drow/Dark Eldar. The whys and wherefores of their infliction of suffering is immaterial... whatever their reasons, both factions (Drow and DEldar) do it. This does not make the DEldar "unique", it's simply putting a 40K spin on something already present in the source material.

The sporeoid Ork thing is also a "ret-con" of sorts in 40K, as there was once Ork females, families, and all that sort of thing in earlier additions. Most Orks in 40k have very short life-spans, and few to no Orks die of natural causes. Of course, them being "space-fungi" might be sourced from H.P. Lovecraft's "fungi of Yuggoth" in his Cthulhu mythos and simply mixed into the normal orcoid barbarism and soccer hooliganism (who are also barbarians).

That was my point to begin with, you might recall. By themselves the concepts may not seem that interesting or original but when adapted to the setting, they become something more. In my opinion that makes them unique.

Retcon or not is irrelevant. That's what they are now and have been for a while. A concept isn't static and doesn't mean what it was on its inception cannot change and evolve, as the concept of the Orks has. Fungi of Yuggoth seems like a stretch as it's about something else entirely, but perhaps. I don't know where the creators got all their inspirations from and I'm not familiar enough 'with HP Lovecraft so anything is possible.

Still, if you think the 40k concept of Orks isn't original just because it has its roots in other sources (just like those others sources have their roots in yet others - orcs didn't just pop into Tolkien's head without prior inspiration after all) - then you'll find that there's a fundamental difference of opinion here.

 the_kraken wrote:

What this guy said. I don't even play Orks and I think they're essential to 40K.

Thanks

I'm not an Ork player either but I appreciate what they add to the setting. 40k just wouldn't be what it is without them. Plus there isn't anything more 40k than the wars on Armageddon.

Combining stuff you cribbed from here and there into a semi-cohesive whole might make it "unique" in some definitions of the word, but it in no way makes it "original", which is the point of the thread. The Orks in 40K are not an original GW creation, and one need only take a cursory glance around at other games and media, as well as the culture the designers are from, to see where the Orks came from. They took a staple foe from fantasy games like Dungeons and Dragons, had a laugh about English hooligans with them, and put them in the book. I also never claimed that Tolkien created the Orcs in his book (in fact, the only thing he created was the languages). It is exactly because it has roots in other places, and was, originally, only the stereotypical fantasy Orc given a lower-class British accent, and did not become what we know the Orks as today until much later that makes it an unoriginal idea.

None of this is to say I hate Orks or demand that every iota in a sci-fi or fantasy IP be 100% original, but I am not going to ignore the fact that they aren't something created whole-cloth by GW, since that's the point of the thread. Orks are cool, but not original.

I also would like to stress that I mean no offense against Ork players.

I dislike the faction more and more and I can no longer see myself playing as them, but you are free to enjoy them.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I also would like to stress that I mean no offense against Ork players.

I dislike the faction more and more and I can no longer see myself playing as them, but you are free to enjoy them.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I think we all have at least on faction that we just don't like and wouldn't care one bit if removed from the lore or had never existed in the first place.

 Jayden63 wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
I also would like to stress that I mean no offense against Ork players.

I dislike the faction more and more and I can no longer see myself playing as them, but you are free to enjoy them.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over it. I think we all have at least on faction that we just don't like and wouldn't care one bit if removed from the lore or had never existed in the first place.

I second that. Tau. Don't appeal to me one little bit. Orks however, are immense.

There was a page in the 3ed Orc Codex where Orc biology and culture was discussed in what I think was an autopsy report (I might remmember this wrong). That single page was always the most appealing fluff about them I ever read.

Personally I'm not a fan of the 30k Space marine legions. Where the 40k marines are warrior monks who are taught to exorsice their humanity and revere the Emperor and their chapter the 30k ones are little more then shook troopers who are the best of the best of the best.

I'd argue 40k Marines are ultraconservative zealots whereas 30k Marines are freethinkers. Feels like more variety.

 Ashiraya wrote:
I'd argue 40k Marines are ultraconservative zealots whereas 30k Marines are freethinkers. Feels like more variety.

30k is more free thinking in general and less regressed to even stricter religious dogma's

 Bottle wrote:
Servo-skulls

/thread

Xenoesis wrote:

 Bottle wrote:
Servo-skulls

/thread

The Genestealer Cult is as if The Children of the Corn and a Xenomorph had a baby and I think that despite the Genestealers themselves pulling heavily from the Alien franchise the idea behind the Cult itself is rather unique. The Genestealer generation reproduction cycle, the Brood Telepathy and undying love for their alien monsters, the charismatic Magnus acting as an Alien Cultist Hitler.

The traits themselves may not be unique but the combination has created a unique and rich lore.

What about the Emperor himself? ... A man who is a very powerful psyker and a perpetual/immortal.

But more then that, his current state where he is just barely alive (physically), but still performing a vital role in the imperium by powering the astronomican while at the same time keeping the broken webway gate secure and also performing a bunch of other un-worldly/warp duties/battles.

Is there any other character quite like that?

 ALEXisAWESOME wrote:
The Genestealer Cult is as if The Children of the Corn and a Xenomorph had a baby and I think that despite the Genestealers themselves pulling heavily from the Alien franchise the idea behind the Cult itself is rather unique. The Genestealer generation reproduction cycle, the Brood Telepathy and undying love for their alien monsters, the charismatic Magnus acting as an Alien Cultist Hitler.

The traits themselves may not be unique but the combination has created a unique and rich lore.

I think more "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" then "Children of the Corn".

bolter_fodder wrote:
What about the Emperor himself? ... A man who is a very powerful psyker and a perpetual/immortal.

But more then that, his current state where he is just barely alive (physically), but still performing a vital role in the imperium by powering the astronomican while at the same time keeping the broken webway gate secure and also performing a bunch of other un-worldly/warp duties/battles.

Is there any other character quite like that?

Yes.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_Emperor_of_Dune

bolter_fodder wrote:
What about the Emperor himself? ... A man who is a very powerful psyker and a perpetual/immortal.

But more then that, his current state where he is just barely alive (physically), but still performing a vital role in the imperium by powering the astronomican while at the same time keeping the broken webway gate secure and also performing a bunch of other un-worldly/warp duties/battles.

Is there any other character quite like that?

Jesus and Chuck Norris?