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I will be first to admit my fluff knowledge has a gap of about ten years in it so I am sure I missed it somewhere but can someone please tell me when the Battle of Terra got changed to include most of the traitor legions being present?

To my knowledge it was :

Loyalist
Blood Angels
White Scars
Imperial Fists

vs

Rebels
Sons of Horus
World Eaters
Thousand Sons
Deathguard
Emperor's Children

I have however seen something recently that suggested 3 other traitor legions were also present?

Word Bearers
Night Lords
Iron Warriors

The Thousand Sons were not at the first Siege of Terra and if I am not mistaken, neither were the Deathguard. The Thousand Sons were retreating from Prospero, their homeworld who had just been destroyed by the Space Wolf. The Word Bearers were indeed abscent, but both the Iron Warriors and the Night Lords were there. The Iron Warrior managed to breach the wall of the Emperor's Palace while the Night Lords were actualy the very first marines to enter the forteress in question by infiltrating it. The loyalist also had a few remaining elements of Raven Guard, Salamenders and Iron Hand Legion.

epronovost wrote:
The Thousand Sons were not at the first Siege of Terra and if I am not mistaken, neither were the Deathguard. The Thousand Sons were retreating from Prospero, their homeworld who had just been destroyed by the Space Wolf. The Word Bearers were indeed abscent, but both the Iron Warriors and the Night Lords were there. The Iron Warrior managed to breach the wall of the Emperor's Palace while the Night Lords were actualy the very first marines to enter the forteress in question by infiltrating it. The loyalist also had a few remaining elements of Raven Guard, Salamenders and Iron Hand Legion.

Hmm, I have conflicting information.

As far as I can tell the Night Lords were still out on the Eastern Fringe and continued to raid even after Horus was defeated. A large amount but not all of the Iron Warriors and Word Bearer legions. The Emperors Children - although they did not partake in much of the actual fighting, Death Guard, Thousand Sons and Sons of Horus were all present. No mention of the Alpha Legion.

It stands currently that the loyalists were the Fists, the Blood Angels and the White Scars with the Space Wolves landing on Terra at the end and mopping up the dregs (WD 233). But it is possible that elements of other legions might show up as Dorn has sent communications out in to the vastness of space recalling all survivors to Terra.

GW had a board game about the Siege of the Imperial Palace many moons ago (its actual name escapes me) and I am pretty sure that's where my original understanding of the Legions involved came from.

So one legion for each of the primary chaos gods plus Sons of Horus vs BA, WS and IF.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

epronovost wrote:
the first Siege of Terra

When was there another?

Prospero was destroyed at the start of the Heresy, 7 years before the Siege of Terra. The Index Astartes article put them at Horus' side at Isstvan V, the Horus Heresy artbook had them rendezvousing with Horus shortly after.

The Death Guard were becalmed in the warp for months and plaguified en-route to Terra but still arrived in time.

The Word Bearers were there as well, according to their Index Astartes article Kor Phaeron led part of the legion to Ultramar whilst Lorgar led the rest of the legion to Terra with Horus ~ the revised story of the siege in the artbook added that: "At the head of the invading army were the Primarch's Angron, Mortarion and Lorgar."

TheWanderer wrote:

When was there another?

Age of Apostasy.

TheWanderer wrote:

epronovost wrote:
the first Siege of Terra

When was there another?

At the end of the Age of Apostasy where the Palace was attacked, rather than defended by the Imperial Fists and their allies.

The Night Lords having been there is from the Night Lords novel series. I think it was created as a backstory for their 10th Company who are the protagonists of the books, so it wasn't necessarily the bulk of the legion that was on Terra.

Dont worry theyll all have some representation, even if its just company size. When theres a couple of hundred thousand IF, BA and WS. it will all be based of Bill Kings account, just the details will be fleshed out.
A squad/ company of what ever legion you like, is a whatever in the scheme of things. But theyll be there.

IW were supposed to be the ones that first breached the walls.
NL were off doing NL things. Wouldnt be surprised if Konrad gets some face time with the Emp.
TS having no choice turned up.
Death Guard were there.

 cadak wrote:
The Night Lords having been there is from the Night Lords novel series. I think it was created as a backstory for their 10th Company who are the protagonists of the books, so it wasn't necessarily the bulk of the legion that was on Terra.

Ah yep, I think you would be right. I forgot about the NL series.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:

epronovost wrote:
the first Siege of Terra

When was there another?

At the end of the Age of Apostasy where the Palace was attacked, rather than defended by the Imperial Fists and their allies.

Does that really count as a Siege of Terra? As I read it, it was more a case of Vandire holed up in the main chamber and put a pillow over his head about the noise outside the door.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

the ancient wrote:
Dont worry theyll all have some representation, even if its just company size. When theres a couple of hundred thousand IF, BA and WS. it will all be based of Bill Kings account, just the details will be fleshed out.
A squad/ company of what ever legion you like, is a whatever in the scheme of things. But theyll be there.

IW were supposed to be the ones that first breached the walls.
NL were off doing NL things. Wouldnt be surprised if Konrad gets some face time with the Emp.
TS having no choice turned up.
Death Guard were there.

Not really interested in them all being represented. More interested in the change in fluff but I guess they like to include everyone in everything these days so no one is disappointed.

A few squads or a company or two dont really count towards the Legion being present for me.

TheWanderer wrote:
Not really interested in them all being represented. More interested in the change in fluff but I guess they like to include everyone in everything these days so no one is disappointed.

A few squads or a company or two dont really count towards the Legion being present for me.

Trying to hunt down Bill Kings WD version. Looking on line. Seems his story has been errm adjusted as well.

The big 4 were there. Thats why they had Epic models.
Dorns got his prison full of marines. So he might well have a mixed psyker legion in his pocket.
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

If I recall the thousand sons primarily did rituals of sorcery to aid the traitors during the battle i.e demon summoning; though magnus was not present, and only some night lords were there, with the bulk of them being on the eastern fringes. I believe Sevatar led their forces on terra, as I think it said he was presumed killed during the battle

The confusion about whether or not the Night Lords were present at Terra probably comes from the fact that the legion split into six parts at the end of Prince of Crows.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No mention of the Alpha Legion.

Disappeared on the Eastern Fringe around the same time.

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The confusion about whether or not the Night Lords were present at Terra probably comes from the fact that the legion split into six parts at the end of Prince of Crows.

Spoiler:

With Curze in a coma, Sevatar takes temporary command of the legion. After the disastrous events of Thramas Crusade, where the Dark Angels wipe out a fifth of the legion in a single attack, Sevatar declares that the Crusade is over and orders the fleet to scatter and do as they like (though his stated intention is to take the bulk of the fleet to Terra).

Its getting harder and harder to remember what happens in the HH series as there is so much to remember now

Thanks though

 ChazSexington wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
No mention of the Alpha Legion.

Disappeared on the Eastern Fringe around the same time.

Yep, but I couldn't find a mention of them being on Terra at the time of the siege. No doubt they will be there. Dressed as Sons of Horus, or Imperial Fists .. or ducks!

Does that really count as a Siege of Terra? As I read it, it was more a case of Vandire holed up in the main chamber and put a pillow over his head about the noise outside the door.

It really, really wasn't. The one story we have set there in detail is one part of Daenyathos..... and it's almost as bloody a fight as the original; less intense but far more protracted, with millions of Frateris Templar and several thousand space marines killed in the battles.

locarno24 wrote:

Does that really count as a Siege of Terra? As I read it, it was more a case of Vandire holed up in the main chamber and put a pillow over his head about the noise outside the door.

It really, really wasn't. The one story we have set there in detail is one part of Daenyathos..... and it's almost as bloody a fight as the original; less intense but far more protracted, with millions of Frateris Templar and several thousand space marines killed in the battles.

Daenyathos? That's one of Ben Counter's? I read the first couple of Soul Drinkers books but they didn't do much for me. Is it worth a read?

The Age of Apostasy is a cool time period as a lot of upheaval went on but there isn't a great deal written about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
AHA! Found reference to the board game I remembered, its was Horus Heresy. It went oop in 1993 so its old school fluff but I am pretty sure back then there were only the big four traitor legions for the four chaos powers plus the sons of horus.

I will look in the loft on the weekend see if I can find it :-)

TheWanderer wrote:

AHA! Found reference to the board game I remembered, its was Horus Heresy. It went oop in 1993 so its old school fluff but I am pretty sure back then there were only the big four traitor legions for the four chaos powers plus the sons of horus.

Fantasy Flight Games did an update of the game a few years ago but that's out of print now as well.

Every Legion had representatives at the siege in one form or another, be they grey Legion, remnants etc.

Even the Ultramarines had a company in the outer sol system.

 Formosa wrote:
Every Legion had representatives at the siege in one form or another, be they grey Legion, remnants etc.

Even the Ultramarines had a company in the outer sol system.

And this is a symptom of the everyone must be included and no one can feel sad about being excluded mentality that pervades society today.

That tenuous "of course your legion was there at this important event!!! There was a squad posted there by blaha balaha for the whatever"

Wow, I am grumpy on a Monday.....

I think it's logical that there would be representatives of all Legions present at the end. If you consider the set up of various honorific positions on Terra being fulfilled by various legions e.g. The Crusader Host and there being representatives on Mars, there's presumably enough of them knocking about to have been there, even in small numbers.

Loyalist

We know there's the main three - Fists, Scars, Blood Angels. With Dorn being there then there have to be Space Wolves as they're watching all the Primarchs at this point. The Blood Angels open up the possibility of representatives of the Ultramarines and Dark Angels being there as well, how they get there ahead of the other two is to be determined though.

That's six of the nine, the other three are the Shattered Legions which I struggle with slightly as all signs at this point seems to indicate they're waging a guerrilla war so wouldn't go back to Terra. However, I could see Vulkan leading what remains of the Salamanders there.

Corax has been back there since Istvaan V so makes sense that the Raven Guard would end up there before the end.

Iron Hands - well Mars could explain that.

One thing that is itching away at my brain, I'm sure I recall mention of loyalist Thousand Sons fighting at the Siege of Terra. Was that fan fiction or does anyone else recall reading it?

For the traitor side there's probably representatives from every legion. Even if the primarch wasn't there, the legions would have to show some support for Horus. The main effort may have just been elsewhere for those traitor legions.

the ancient wrote:

TheWanderer wrote:
Not really interested in them all being represented. More interested in the change in fluff but I guess they like to include everyone in everything these days so no one is disappointed.

A few squads or a company or two dont really count towards the Legion being present for me.

Trying to hunt down Bill Kings WD version. Looking on line. Seems his story has been errm adjusted as well.

The big 4 were there. Thats why they had Epic models.
Dorns got his prison full of marines. So he might well have a mixed psyker legion in his pocket.
http://members.tripod.com/orcrist_game/40k/id3.html

I'm wondering how they will handle the final confrontation now that horus's powers are from a different source

 EngulfedObject wrote:
The confusion about whether or not the Night Lords were present at Terra probably comes from the fact that the legion split into six parts at the end of Prince of Crows.

Spoiler:

With Curze in a coma, Sevatar takes temporary command of the legion. After the disastrous events of Thramas Crusade, where the Dark Angels wipe out a fifth of the legion in a single attack, Sevatar declares that the Crusade is over and orders the fleet to scatter and do as they like (though his stated intention is to take the bulk of the fleet to Terra).

The confusion comes from ADB playing fast and loose with established fluff. He includes whatever he wants, ignoring what other writers have put down before him. Great writer, but his stuff rarely fits into timelines and WILL conflict with them if he chooses. He's a prime example of the 'there is no canon' mindset.

epronovost wrote:
The Thousand Sons were not at the first Siege of Terra and if I am not mistaken, neither were the Deathguard. The Thousand Sons were retreating from Prospero, their homeworld who had just been destroyed by the Space Wolf. The Word Bearers were indeed abscent, but both the Iron Warriors and the Night Lords were there. The Iron Warrior managed to breach the wall of the Emperor's Palace while the Night Lords were actualy the very first marines to enter the forteress in question by infiltrating it. The loyalist also had a few remaining elements of Raven Guard, Salamenders and Iron Hand Legion.

Death Guard were there since the Index Astartes articles, as were the Iron Warriors and Perturabo himself. Half of the Word Bearers under Lorgar were also at Terra since these articles, with Kor Phaeron and the other half in the maelstrom since losing at Calth. HH series is probably going to make it so that Angron and Lorgar's joint forces will join with Horus and move on Terra together.

Night Lords being there was stated in ADB's Night Lords books and Prince of Crows.

Ultimately I wouldn't be surprised if they add basically everyone being at Terra (even the Ultras and Wolves), but as of now its Sons of Horus, World Eaters, Emp's Children, Thousand Sons, Death Guard, Night Lords (portion of), Iron Warriors, Word Bearers (half of) vs. Fists, Blood Angels, and White Scars.

In one book, on Terra there is a "Honour guard" of all legions, only up to maybe 3 of each by book. So could be all loyalists but outcast dead concentrate on the traitors escape.

In ADB's series the Night Lords make a big deal about their superiority to the "thin bloods" (ie those who turned after the HH) because they were on Terra at the time of the siege. If Sevatar claimed the conflict was over for the NL that would still not make some NL involvement non-canon as they are famously cantankerous and follow their own agenda. So individual war bands could have turned up and been quite sizable.

Im pretty sure that in one of the Salamander HH novels, possibly Vulkan Lives:

I really hope they don't retcon the Salamanders being there. At this point It's annoying enough to deal with the insanely convoluted retcon to Vulkin himself, not to mention Curze suddenly taken solo trips all over the dam universe.

Three chapters where there and it should stay that way, If they want a post Siege confrontation during the Scouring that's fine but stop with the endless retcons.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
I really hope they don't retcon the Salamanders being there. At this point It's annoying enough to deal with the insanely convoluted retcon to Vulkin himself, not to mention Curze suddenly taken solo trips all over the dam universe.

Three chapters where there and it should stay that way, If they want a post Siege confrontation during the Scouring that's fine but stop with the endless retcons.

couldn't agree more.

for me it should have stuck with the original plan of 3 loyalist legions vs 5 traitors.

I mean, seriously with all the traitors on terra is there anyone else out there fighting? :-)

sadly it does seem that everyone wants to have their little bit of the significant events of the heresy no matter how silly it becomes.

Personally - I'm not too fussed if Vulkan turns up (and Kyme strongly hints that he does in the collectors version of Vulkan Lives), but I would object to the whole Legion turning up. That said, the old Vulkan fluff was never too detailed and (depending on whether you want to believe him) Kyme says that the original vision for the HH had Vulkan playing a bigger part. I quote:

Years ago when the sum total that we, the readers, knew about the Horus Heresy was the contents of the collectible card game (later transferred and translated into various Horus Heresy 'Visions of...' art books), Vulkan's storyline ended at Isstvan V, the Primarch engulfed in a massive explosion. Believe it or not, there was more to that story. It just never got told. That's not to say it existed; it didn't, but it was always meant to. But, the CCG ended prematurely, and so many tales that were begun never got the ending they deserved. Vulkan was one of them. A big one. Fast forward several years and here I am writing the afterword to part one of that mystery. I say 'part one' because I see Vulkan's journey as a saga that won't truly meet it's resolution, and therefore have closure or an answer, until we're standing at the Gate of Terra in defiance of tyranny and Chaos.'

So, make of that what you will. IMHO, I like Kymes work - he's clarified on some things, whilst staying true to other, older fluff. I hear people's reservations on Vulkan's , but IMO Kyme hasn't made him some OP God, as it's rather tempered by his insanity, grief and an ongoing subplot. I don't mind Vulkan showing up at Terra as I think he would feel honour-bound to come to his father's aid - but I suspect he would order the bulk of his Legion to stay and rebuild, because he knows the Imperium will need his Legion to combat whatever Horus has unleashed.