Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

At what point cost would you consider adding assassins to your army in a competitive setting? While I have often seen them fielded, in almost every instance the owning player has lost due to their massive point cost which very rarely is made up by the assassin. Despite new rules being released not to long ago in an White Dwarf issue, the point cost is really what deters me from fielding them. If you do field them, from what temple do you use & what point changes would you make to said temple to make them more competitive?

I wouldn't consider an assassin competitive ever

 CrownAxe wrote:
I wouldn't consider an assassin competitive ever

What is it about the current assassins that make you feel that way? Is it their stat line, point cost, because they take up an elite slot in your army?

They dont take up an elite slot in my army. they are their own detachment.

Mainly:

1) efectiveness. vindicare was the best, but the drop to AP2 and S10 against vehicles makes him pretty poor at taking them out, and a single shot for nearly 150 points isnt fantastic against multiple small units.
2) Extreme fragility - again, theyre a marine with 3 wounds. Any army can take those down, even if forced to snap fire

Assassins don't use another army's elite slot, they have to use their own Assassin detachment which is a single elite slot.

And each of the assassins have their own critical flaw. Callidus and Eversors basically don't function as there isn't anything in the game they are good at killing. Culexus is only good at turning off psychic deathstars for a turn before dying and is useless if your opponent doesn't have one of those. The only assassin that is at least functional is the Vindicare as he should find something worth sniping against any army but is vastly over costed by at least 50 pts for a single shot per turn. Plus all of them are easy to kill being only 3w with a 4++

I think the Culexis Assassin is a viable option for several reasons, but wouldn't field one in a list smaller than 1500 points personally, because at the end of the day it's still over 100 points for a single T:4 model.

Now thankfully the Culexis mitigates this somewhat by forcing all shooting attacks fired at him to be at BS:1 (as well as all melee attacks being resolved as WS:1 against him) meaning he won't take a ton of wounds unless someone pours a lot of firepower into him. He also has the benefit of having all his melee attacks straight up ignore armor, with instant death occurring if you roll a 6 to-wound. It's a pretty excellent counter to Psykers as well. Of all of them, this is the most useful assassin for general purpose. Infiltrate him in near an enemy psyker & put pressure on a flank/distract if you can.

Just my opinion on that. Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

I'm sorry but the Culexus Assassin is brilliant, ignores armour with instant death on a six, can only be hit on 6's, makes psykers suffer critical existence failures with a mixture of psyk-out grenades, more instant death attacks and -2 to lookout sirs...

Not to mention he switches off deathstars...
I do like to run him in a drop pod for mobility, the other assassins have seen...limited use

So there seems to be alot of support for the Culexus Assassin. At present do you feel its current point cost is in line with its effectiveness?

The Vindicare assassin appears to be the 2nd most used but perhaps not up to par with its current point cost.

What is it about the Eversor/Callidus temples that deter you from using them? If their stats were to remain as they are, what kind of a points reduction would be necessary for them to be competitive?

-or-

What would have to change within their statline/ruleset that would make them a competitive choice?

EW would be a decent start. That's half the problem with these T4 ~150pt models.

Culexus is probably the best because of the BS/WS protection.
Callidus doesn't reallly do a lot of damage, Eversor is great against horde armies, but they aren't common now. Vindicare is a single shot guy, which for 150 points is poor. I don't care if it is BS8 and Ignore Cover, one shot doesn't usually do the trick.

Culexus is definitely the best and still isn't useless even when the opponent doesn't have any psykers in it. At the very least you can guarantee infiltrating onto an objective and being a pain to remove if you keep it embedded in good cover, not to mention being a counter to any sort of elite heavy infantry with all its AP1 and ignores armour attacks. It's best quality is shutting down deathstar units, which are common in tournament settings.

The Vindicare is a little too expensive for my tastes, but part of the problem is that people use it incorrectly. People expect it to be able to one-shot big vehicles or warlords; that's a terrible use of it. Single shots just aren't good at taking out vehicles, and big special characters and warlords tend to have impressive invulnerable saves, big retinues to look-out-sir with, or other defences. The best use of the Vindicare is to take out important models without impressive defences- things like individual models in squads which carry special weapons, commissars in guard blobs, or sergeants. You may not make back your points, but the disproportionate cost is what you pay for all but guaranteeing the death of specific models early in the game.

 CrownAxe wrote:
Assassins don't use another army's elite slot, they have to use their own Assassin detachment which is a single elite slot.

And each of the assassins have their own critical flaw. Callidus and Eversors basically don't function as there isn't anything in the game they are good at killing. Culexus is only good at turning off psychic deathstars for a turn before dying and is useless if your opponent doesn't have one of those. The only assassin that is at least functional is the Vindicare as he should find something worth sniping against any army but is vastly over costed by at least 50 pts for a single shot per turn. Plus all of them are easy to kill being only 3w with a 4++

Callidus is amazing, don't know what you're talking about.
Turn one she can be right next to a key enemy unit and unload a Neural Disruptor shot, always wounding on a 4+ with AP2, while only being Snap Shot at in return.

Eversor is certainly a bit trickier since he really needs to be in CC, but with enough stuff charging at once he can get through--and if he DOES get through? Jesus. He can reaaaaaaaaaaaally put the hurt down with 8 attacks on the charge and the ability for you to do a combination of Neuro Gauntlet(Wounds on 2+ thanks to Fleshbane but the target gets their armor saves) and Power Sword attacks(AP3 at the Eversor's Strength value).

I do love the Callidus, that reroll to seize the initiative (got a 2+ rerollable to seize with harlequins once lol) the ability to mess with a single reserve roll and the super infiltrate just make her fun to field but perhaps not the most effective.
BTW can someone please explain why the most amazing assassins in existence do not have STEALTH and shrouded for that points cost!

I just throw the Culexus in with a bunch of Grey Knights and pretend he's an Octo-heavy.

Vindi sucks. The types of targets he really wants to hit are barely ever played. And one shot per turn is sad days.

Callidus is fun, but only casual-good. She can mind-game your opponent into being a ways forward from their deployment edge to avoid her outflank-rear ability so that your assault army doesn't have to travel as far. Downside to showing up right near the enemy is that even if they have to snap shot at her, they could still just assault her with a bunch of ork boys etc. 6 wounds on t4 to average her death isn't hard to pull off, even after receiving her high init attacks.

Eversor sucks. The other 3 have major built-in protection such as snap shot for a turn, can't-hit-me-ever ghost suit, and 72" range. The Eversor just rocks FNP. If your opponent lets this guy into a combat where he's actually going to do real significant damage, he needs to relearn the game.

The Culexus blows the others away. Without enemy psykers to fight, he's a thorn in the enemy's side who can very realistically beat and sweep squads by himself. When the enemy DOES have psykers, he's suddenly even more useful. When the enemy has psychic powers as a core army feature like Tzeentch daemons or grey knights, he can rock entire armies. Riding in a pod, he is your one-stop-shop for when you just don't want to see seer councils, Libby conclaves, cent stars, invisible shenanigans etc etc.

I'd consider a Culexus at 1500. Below 1500 you can't build much of a horrible psychic deathstar and still have an army, so a Culexus would have less to counter.

The thing with the Culexus is that he's scary good in melee combat as well, so he doesn't have to be just against psykers.

I don't know what some of you folks are smoking. Vindicares are brilliant. Not as good as the Culexus though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know what some of you folks are smoking. Vindicares are brilliant. Not as good as the Culexus though.

Its a single shot guy those are always prone to fethin up. and will basically never get its points back. while being prone to every lascannon on the table.

I just played a mini 'Narrative' tournament with the Execution Force for fun, and found that, while they're situationally good, they all have individual problems.

- All of them are pretty easy to kill if you can pile the shots/attacks on, which forces you to be quite conservative with how you use them. Even with snap shooting and a 4+ invulnerable, a full squad Rapid Firing can take one apart quite easily.

- The Callidus has the 1" infiltrate, but that leaves her out in the open to get shot for a turn. She's meant to be good against single heavily armoured models (AP2, 6s ignore inv saves), but with 6 3+ attacks on the charge and only wounding on 4+, she's going to have to survive a couple of turns to kill even a Marine Captain.

- The Eversor is slightly more useful but has the opposite problem. He's meant to be great against no-armour infantry units, with lots of attacks and FnP to get past the Overwatch fire, and he's all but useless against an enemy with decent armour. Even with all his attacks on the charge, he'll likely only kill five Guardsmen a turn, before the other 25 in the blob attack back!

- The Culexus is probably best used in support. His psychic shut-down powers are amazing, but the BS1 thing is, again, not good enough to see him survive Rapid Firing enemies. His main use if probably to just get within 12" of the deathstar, weaken them with his Speculum, and then let ANOTHER unit charge into actually fight them.

- The Vindicate is useful but again, all his advantages have another terrible drawback. You can cause d3 wounds, but then you only have a 50/50 chance of wounding. Or you can wound on a 2+, but then you only cause one. Or you can ignore invulnarables, but then you're back to a 50/50 chance to wound again. A Space Marine Captain still takes multiple turns to actually kill.

All those are nice sets of abilities, but none of them can effectively 'assassinate' an enemy character in one go, and all of them are easy to Rapid Fire to death. I'd say they need a points drop - maybe to just under 100pts each...

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know what some of you folks are smoking. Vindicares are brilliant. Not as good as the Culexus though.

Its a single shot guy those are always prone to fethin up. and will basically never get its points back. while being prone to every lascannon on the table.

Vindicare is 2+ to hit with rerolls of 4+, and as long as he isn't Snap Shooting he gets to make a Precision Shot with a LOS -2 and Ignores Cover.

Against some stuff? Yeah, he's not great. But if you start hucking Turbo Penetrator rounds at the enemy's Warlord, you can potentially put them down hard and fast--especially if you roll a 6 to Wound(Sniper weapons become AP2 in that case).

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Desubot wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I don't know what some of you folks are smoking. Vindicares are brilliant. Not as good as the Culexus though.

Its a single shot guy those are always prone to fethin up. and will basically never get its points back. while being prone to every lascannon on the table.

Vindicare is 2+ to hit with rerolls of 4+, and as long as he isn't Snap Shooting he gets to make a Precision Shot with a LOS -2 and Ignores Cover.

Against some stuff? Yeah, he's not great. But if you start hucking Turbo Penetrator rounds at the enemy's Warlord, you can potentially put them down hard and fast--especially if you roll a 6 to Wound(Sniper weapons become AP2 in that case).

I though sniper weapons dont get ap2 on rending i though. etherway his own weapon is ap1 IIRC
chucking turbo pens at a warlord titan that probably has a few void shields and or invuls? good luck.

the vindicare shines the most being able to just straight kill special weapons and CC weapons out of units. killing of normal sergeants and weapon dudes. killing like 6 of those a game wont really make his points back.. ever. he could make his points back blowing up like 6 Dark eldar vehicles though i think.

@Desubot: Kan wasn't talking about a Warlord Titan. He's talking about the army's Warlord. The guy that gives you a Secondary Objective if you kill him via "Slay the Warlord".

I'd kiss a dead sniper's ass if a Vindicator could take out a Warlord Titan.

Vindicares are easily able to get almost their points back. You can't expect them to kill the Warlord. You kill Apothecaries, Special Weapons holders, a Centurion Sergeant, Wraithguard, etc
They're a force multiplier that has a decent chance of getting their points back. I don't get why people don't like them. I agree Assassins could be 50 cheaper and nobody would bat an eye though.

 kronk wrote:
@Desubot: Kan wasn't talking about a Warlord Titan. He's talking about the army's Warlord. The guy that gives you a Secondary Objective if you kill him via "Slay the Warlord".

I'd kiss a dead sniper's ass if a Vindicator could take out a Warlord Titan.

ah derp right i got titans on the brain.

Though it effectively a 4+ not to take the hit. great against those annoying 2++ rerollables with the anti invul shell.

killing a bike apothecaries is fantastic so is killing off a few grav bikers or centurions. but it still doesn't always add up to his own points cost is what im saying. and i dont expect it to.

You know, I never thought about taking out the apothecary right before you unload on the apothecary's unit with another of yours. Situational has hell, but interesting.

 kronk wrote:
You know, I never thought about taking out the apothecary right before you unload on the apothecary's unit with another of yours. Situational has hell, but interesting.

He still gets a 6+ LOS and FNP but no cover no armor and no invul if it somehow managed to get it.

Kan - vindicate is ap2 in all shots

The problem is that the invul ignoring round and the one that wounds on 2 are seperated. Either I ignore your invul and only have a fifty fifty shot of putting a wound on. The sniper rules hurt him

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vindicares are easily able to get almost their points back. You can't expect them to kill the Warlord. You kill Apothecaries, Special Weapons holders, a Centurion Sergeant, Wraithguard, etc
They're a force multiplier that has a decent chance of getting their points back. I don't get why people don't like them. I agree Assassins could be 50 cheaper and nobody would bat an eye though.

The times I've run the full execution force in a game, the vindi hasn't done jack. He gets deployed with a good view, takes his shots at vehicles or special weapons, and ALWAYS fails me. Either he'll miss his one BS8 shot or fail to wound. It's uncanny.

That and even if you DO have a vindi luckier than mine, many of the competitive armies right now just don't have good targets for him. Against eldar he'll knock out 1 scatbike before dying. Against necrons his shots will just get RP'd for no damage and they have multiple wounds just in case, and there aren't juicy specials for him to target. Against orks it takes 2 rounds to reliably snipe a powerklaw nob that has no painboy, against tyranids you somehow don't shoot any better than any other grunt since everything flies, or if they're playing the less-competitive-but-annoying thrope-cover-abuse army, it takes at least 2 rounds to KO a single venomthrope, heaven forbid they took multiples or malanthropes. Against marines he's really only going to pull his weight against very suboptimal lists like the ones where people take a vet sarge with a fist, and this is assuming they don't just pod in and tap or long range shot the vindi. 3+ cover in ruins only stops two out of three lascannon shots, or 6 out of nine bolters. Against tau, all the suits have multiple wounds, and again the vindi is not going to live against a barrage of missiles with just his 4+ reflexes. Good admech armies ally in pods, so there goes that one. Decent amount of characters with fancy wargear, although they have two wounds again. Knights laugh at his damage output, with him causing a hull point once every three turns on odds...

Really it'd be a shorter list to just say what I find him good against: over-equipped marine vet sarges outside their ride, guardsmen units with voxes or priests, dark eldar raiders, sister superiors, dark Angels ravenwing, maybe a marine scout armed with heavy weapon and camo cloak, although I haven't seen one of those in a couple editions, overequipped chaos marine aspiring champs, and uh....dark eldar beastmasters... And really, how many of those do you actually need help against?

I played a Vindicare once... One shotted a Grot gun, a nob leader and plinked off the final wound the Warboss...

His dice luck were uncanny