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 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vindicares are easily able to get almost their points back. You can't expect them to kill the Warlord. You kill Apothecaries, Special Weapons holders, a Centurion Sergeant, Wraithguard, etc
They're a force multiplier that has a decent chance of getting their points back. I don't get why people don't like them. I agree Assassins could be 50 cheaper and nobody would bat an eye though.

The times I've run the full execution force in a game, the vindi hasn't done jack. He gets deployed with a good view, takes his shots at vehicles or special weapons, and ALWAYS fails me. Either he'll miss his one BS8 shot or fail to wound. It's uncanny.

That's bad dice rolls. If you look at averages you see there more going on.
1. A Centurion Sergeant with that obnoxious Omniscope? With the Turbo Penetrator, you have a 49% chance to kill him.
2. Any special weapon toting dude you target with a Helfire will be dead 81% of the time.
3. Need to take the last HP off a Knight? There's a 33% chance you do that on the side with the 4++.

Stuff like that. Just because you miss every shot with BS8 doesn't mean that's what will ordinarily happen.

Vindi is good where the common opponents have valuable sarges/weapon dudes in their teams, he's also decent at finishing blows.

Anti-psyker dude is good in any psyker heavy meta.

Superinfiltrator-she has her moment. but generally not impressed.

Eversor-coolest, lest useful. he hits like a truck when he gets there, but he rarely does.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Vindicares are easily able to get almost their points back. You can't expect them to kill the Warlord. You kill Apothecaries, Special Weapons holders, a Centurion Sergeant, Wraithguard, etc
They're a force multiplier that has a decent chance of getting their points back. I don't get why people don't like them. I agree Assassins could be 50 cheaper and nobody would bat an eye though.

The times I've run the full execution force in a game, the vindi hasn't done jack. He gets deployed with a good view, takes his shots at vehicles or special weapons, and ALWAYS fails me. Either he'll miss his one BS8 shot or fail to wound. It's uncanny.

That's bad dice rolls. If you look at averages you see there more going on.
1. A Centurion Sergeant with that obnoxious Omniscope? With the Turbo Penetrator, you have a 49% chance to kill him.
2. Any special weapon toting dude you target with a Helfire will be dead 81% of the time.
3. Need to take the last HP off a Knight? There's a 33% chance you do that on the side with the 4++.

Stuff like that. Just because you miss every shot with BS8 doesn't mean that's what will ordinarily happen.

( oh great, he thinks I'm one of those guys that operates strictly on anecdotal evidence instead of math.)

I'm aware that bad rolling is not indicative of future rolls. I math hammer with the best of them. (By the way, in your cent sarge example, you only have a 25.4% chance to kill him. Turbo-pen might only deal one wound on the d3 and leave him alive, and he might pass the 6+ look out sir. Your vindi may spend around 3 rounds of the game trying to down that one dude, and that would be consistent with odds.)

My biggest issue with him is that decent lists nowadays just don't have good targets for him. He wants to target jink-happy low armor skimmers, and one-wound wargear-laden dudes to make his shots really reliable instead of coin-flips. The only army that runs the skimmers he wants to shoot commonly is dark eldar, which most armies can thrash without the vindi coming along to help, and bringing one makes you feel like you're kicking a puppy, and the only time I see single wound wargear-laden dudes is in super-casual marine lists where they actually still take power weapon vet sarges. (Anyone running anything halfway serious in marines today does not waste points like that.)

The game has just naturally evolved to a point where the vindi's single shot can't affect the battle much, even though it looks so sexy on paper. One of my favorite targets for him is a dark eldar beastmaster, which leads to entire packs of beasts NOPE-ing right off the board, but again, that's just kicking a puppy.

Also if they ARE running something particularly vulnerable to the assassin, he really isn't that hard to kill. Assuming he found a nice perch in some ruins, 3 heavy weapon wounds and he should be out. So a single pack of missile devs can easily one-round him, even on turn 1 night since double stealth doesn't do anything extra.

Sign of how big the game has gotten in many areas, and how little infantry models matter these day compared to big stompy robots and bikes.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Sign of how big the game has gotten in many areas, and how little infantry models matter these day compared to big stompy robots and bikes.

It really is. Whether for better or worse, almost the entire game is based off jink/ap2/ignores cover/formations. Its unlikely that assassins will see another rules revision anytime soon seeing as their most recent rules just came but, but it would be nice if temples such as Eversor/Callidus either saw a point reduction to reflect their effectiveness or adjustments to improve their effectiveness to justify their cost.

has anyone played with the Culexus's ability to shoot out of combat?