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Im trying to build a decent army that I like and keep finding road blocks

I tried the lords in 6th edition with no luck and the knight as a monstrous creature always died before he could deal any damage. Also tried serpent spam in 1250/1500 point games and they always got wrecked before I could clear any of my opponents units out.

I'm trying to find a truly durable eldar list without spamming knight or bikes and serpents. I really want to play wraith but the only ones that get save are blades with the axe/shield and the knights feel no pain/shield variant. All my opponents have plenty of ap2/3 so my units don't live long. I feel like to play on par I have to resort to bikes and d strength weapons.

My concept of list building from day one has been find troops give them a leader to follow then support them with some heavy units to deal out long range damage and some fast units to distract and harrass with. A slower lumber some unit should be able to withstand a few hits so that he reaches his target.

Well eldar look like that with guardians in clean smooth clad armor reminiscent of storm troopers and psychers with Jedi like powers. Transports with loads of shots and wraith constructs that tower over the battle feild. But that list has failed me over and over no matter how I mix it up.

If brightlances hit they don't pen, wraith units die too fast and serpents can't hurt most of my opponents units a serpent in 1 round might kill one terminator two if I'm lucky. Guardians get one round of shots off before theyre obliterated or they spend their time back field doing nothing.

I really need help understanding how to make the game as fun to play as I envisioned without spamming 1 or 2 good units.

I want a game that every turn for 5 turns could go either way not a decided game on turn 2 and three more turns till I'm tabled.

Could you please give us some insight into what sort of lists you are playing against and that should help us work around the plethora of AP2/3 your opponents use. Also you are correct, Eldar are one of the most powerful factions in the game right now so it's very viable to make a list without spam, that said it’s worth noting that they are also one of the more delicate factions with limited saves and low toughness.

Without jetbikes you will be probably be looking at 2-3 wave serpents for transport purposes, they are a lot weaker than their 6th edition iteration so I don’t think you should feel too bad about fielding them… you certainly aren’t spamming them in those numbers.
It looks like you need more anti-tank weaponry, bright lances are great weapons but just 2 or 3 is not going to cut it, so whether you get them through wraith units or cheap hornet/warwalker platforms fielding them in number is the key…
Against terminator equivalents, it’s always worth remembering that our basic weapons ignore their armour on a 6 to wound so wasting premium bright lance shots isn’t usually necessary.

I know you may be sick of these suggestions now buuut…

Combined Arms Detachment
Spiritseer 70
Wraithguard (5) 160
Wraithguard (5) 160
Wave Serpent - Shuriken cannon upgrade and TL Shuriken Cannon 115
Wave Serpent - Shuriken cannon upgrade and TL Shuriken Cannon 115
Rangers (5) 60
Rangers (5) 60

Guardian Battlehost
Farseer 100
Guardian Defenders (10) Warlock leader and free weapons platform 125
Guardian Defenders (10) Warlock leader and free weapons platform 125
Guardian Defenders (10) Warlock leader and free weapons platform 125
Vyper (1) Shuriken Cannon upgrade 50
Vaul's Wrath Support battery (3) Vibrocannons 90
Warwalkers (2) Dual Bright Lances 140

A 1495 point list which has
- wraith units in wave serpents for mobility (no spam) and is a strong Anti tank/Anti MC unit with spiritseer to help buff the wraithguard with his special abilities and psychic powers
- A strong battle line of guardians with their FREE weapons platforms for some more firepower, put them in cover and have their warlocks cast conceal on them for a 2-3+ save (depending if they are in a ruin or forest etc)
- Vibrocannons in the support batteries offer long ranged AT not to mention thet are toughness 7 to boot (might want to cast guide on these guys since they get stronger the more times they hit, plus if you spare some points you can upgrade them to D-cannons of you want)
- Warwalkers with bright lances for more ranged AT
-8+d6 warp charged for 'jedi powers'

Just suggestions but I hope it fits with the image you have of Eldar, it's not cut throat competitive but its strong

Also, if folks really hate the Wraithguard, you could consider dropping the CAD for an Aspect Host Formation with +1 BS, 2x Fire Dragons, 1x Dark Reapers (5 Dragons + Exarch, 4 Reapers + Exarch, with Starshot and EML on Exarch), plus two Engines Of Vaul (Falcons, hull-mount shuricannon, brightlance). To make the points come out right, you'd have to drop one of the three Vaul's Wrath guns (so make the other two Shadow Weavers), but mount your Farseer on a bike (which will make him a bit less likely to die, and contribute a bit more firepower to the Guardians).

Then, you mount your Fire Dragons up in the Falcons. The Falcons are a little less survivable than the Serpents - they lack the Serpent Shield - but they have a pulse laser and brightlance, which helps their firepower a lot. You could also lose another Vaul's Wrath gun to put holo-fields on the Falcons - that way they don't have to Jink as often, and you have some kind of defense against Ignores Cover shooting and melee attacks.

Well, in reality playing Eldar you can just take all units you love and still win. I usually take:
1. Autarch or Farseer on bike and possibly a Spiritseer.
2. Two Windriders units with scatter-lasers.
3. One unit of WraithGuards in WaveSerpent (with twin Scatterlasers and a Shuriken Cannon) or Deep Striking with allied DE Archon (sometimes Deep Striking in the WS).
4. One or two units of Warp Spiders (they are outstanding).
5. One unit of Swooping Hawks (I just like the miniatures).
6. Two or three Hornets or two or three War Walkers (they are inferior to Hornets but I like them from aesthetic point of view).
7. If I have enough points left -- a Crimson Hunter or sometimes an entire Crimson Death formation.

I rarely take WraithKnight because it is too OP. I don't take DarkReapert either (don't like the minis) and Fire Dragons are rarely necessary. And I always use Aspect Host to give my Aspect Warriors that "+1 BS" bonus.

Allied DE detachment usually consists of:
1. Archon with Webway portal and blaster in Venom (because you can never have too many Venoms).
2. A pack of Kabbalite Trueborns with blaster in Raider (you will never want you Venoms to be too close to the enemy).
3. A pack of Kabbalite Warriors in another Venom.
4. A Venom or a spare Raider for Fire Dragons (if I take them).

This way you'll have a versatile and effective force that can play almost any mission against any opponent.

You're playing eldar bro. It's not too hard to win, and most units in your book are good enough to field. If you want games that are back and forth or close then you might need to tailor your list to whatever your enemy brings, especially via orks and csm. Don't spam bikes but maybe bring one unit of them. Maybe one unit of warp spiders. Have your wraithguard cruise across the field in your tanks. Just my two cents.

You could make a list using a random generator and eldar would still be top tier. Every unit in the codex minus shinning spears is at least average.

If you are looking for a "durable Eldar army", short of fielding five Wraithknights you aren't going to get one. Most Eldar Infantry are T3 with a 3+ save at best, with their bikes being only as tough as an MEQ. Wave Serpents, while very durable, are also very expensive. Wraithguard units are not particularly durable for their points, having only one wound.

In short, Eldar are an army that is focused not on durability, but on unmatched mobility and firepower. I would suggest looking at another army if you one a force with more staying power on the tabletop.

Eldar absolutely HAVE staying power. People saying otherwise are the same people that say to try and sweep 7.5 Necrons in combat.
1. At worst you can have the army be MEQ with S6 4 shot weapons at 36", which means they can easily camp in cover anywhere you want, and you'd still have Jink. Just for 27 points. It is stupid.
2. Wraithguard are still T6 3+. You can then ally a 2++ from Dark Eldar to tank a few wounds.
3. Wave Serpents aren't expensive; they're just not a battle tank anymore like they used to be.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Eldar absolutely HAVE staying power. People saying otherwise are the same people that say to try and sweep 7.5 Necrons in combat.
1. At worst you can have the army be MEQ with S6 4 shot weapons at 36", which means they can easily camp in cover anywhere you want, and you'd still have Jink. Just for 27 points. It is stupid.
2. Wraithguard are still T6 3+. You can then ally a 2++ from Dark Eldar to tank a few wounds.
3. Wave Serpents aren't expensive; they're just not a battle tank anymore like they used to be.

You should know by now how easily it is to kill an MEQ in this edition, even with 4+ cover. The reason Scatbikers are so overpowered is their absurd firepower, not their durability.

T6 and 3+ is great against small-arms, but only having one wound will make you very vulnerable to the plethora of AP3 or better special weapons in the game. Sure, you could grab and Archon with a Shadow Field, but then you're increasing the cost of the unit dramatically. Keep in mind that the 2++ goes away (usually along with the Archon) when you fail it, which you statistically will.

140 points buys you a Tri-Las Predator. 145 points buys you a properly kitted out Wave Serpent. I'm not saying that it isn't very good for its cost, but 145 points is not a small investment for a vehicle.

Durable Eldar units:

1) wraith stuff (duh). Best fielded in a Warhost because they get to run 6" always.

2) seer council on jetbikes. One word: fortune. Their worst save will be 4++ rerollable.

3) Warp Spiders. 3+ armor and flicker jump makes them really hard to hit let alone kill. Master the art of jumping through terrain and you'll cause much rage.

4) Vauls Wrath Batteries. T7 guardians anyone? Go d cannons if you feel ballsy, or longer ranged for safety.

I get the impression that the durable Eldar he's looking for is the Necron Decision.

Eldar are OP due to their firepower, mobility, and WK. Aside from the list above, they aren't durable. Scatterbikes are reasonably durable at MEQ levels, but nearly everything else is GEQ(/FEQ).

Thanks everyone for your input.

I've read over it a few times and talked with some more knowledgeable player at our game store. A lot of my issues have been using my units wrong. My avg list since 6th so far has been

1000/2250pts of
1 farseer w/warlocks
2 sets of guardians w/warlock
maybe a ranger squad
2/3 serpents
And I've been rotating my owned elites
Scorpians
Firedragons
Wraith guard/blades
Wraith lord
Wraith knight

I start with everything on board and lose at least a third after my opponents 1st turn. Usually my troops and or serpents

My common opponts are grey knights 2 different players
Nids spearhead w/biotitan/harridan or flying circus

I've also played against necrons w monolith
Deamons vector striking melee
Guards with long range tanks
Various space marine chapters, drop pods, terminators centurions and imperial knights

Our shop is moving to a codex only army so that op forge world models will not show up to tournaments

A war hound came to a 1500 pt tourny. The guy running the tournament wasn't happy with the results.

And I also played my best games yet placing 4th out of 8 one punt away from 3rd.

Yeah, limiting to codexes should definitely help stop people from fielding incredibly broken Superheavies at stupid low points values...no codex has any of those...

the_scotsman wrote:
Yeah, limiting to codexes should definitely help stop people from fielding incredibly broken Superheavies at stupid low points values...no codex has any of those...

Too…much…sarcasm to handle!

There's a subtle difference between a Wraithknight and a real titan Warhound/Harridan at 1500 points no?


In any case throwing out the titan level units should help you play without resorting to the typical spam Scatterlazers and Wraithknights mentality, although I do insist that you try out the guardian battlehost as a core followed by the wraith host as your collection grows (assuming your opponents allow formations)

A friend of mine, at 2k points, uses a Wraith Host (with 3 units in Wave Serpents), a Windrider Host and a Eldrad (through the Command Detachment). Aside from a few heavy weapons on the Wraithknight/lord, everything is pretty bare-bones in order to fit everything in, but the idea is that Eldrad gives scout to D3 of the Wraithguard in Serpents and this, combined with Battle Focus and the auto-6" run given to them by the Wraith Host and Craftworld Warhost detachment respectively, should bring their 12" guns into range turn one. I currently lack the Wraith models to play the list, but it's something I want to try out in the future, especially seeing as it's so different to the style of Eldar I'd normally play.

Admittedly, 2k isn't the most commonly played points level, but this list is quite effective and you don't have to worry about spamming Bikes/Wave Serpents since the general lack of upgrades (Bikes are bare bones for example) makes them far less OP and something far fewer people will complain about.

Alternatively, you could drop the Windrider Host and just go with the Wraith Host + a CAD led by Eldrad. It gives you the same sort of list, albeit without the guaranteed 6" run, but will also give you more flexibility in what you want to include, allow you to stick some upgrades on the Wraithguard and/or Serpents and allow you to fit it in in an 1850pt game.

Help with this, I've been playing for 3 years and still field all my model at set up.

For 1000+ point games I want to try this method for objective grabbing.

Start the game with 1 knight, 2 lords and snipers on the field
In reserves have serpents with guardians or avengers inside
Turn 1 move the wraiths up and attempt clear large threats
Try an assassination with the snipers
Turn 2 bring in my serpent and start to move for closest safe objective flat out if I can, I need to read reserves rules.
Keep the heat on with my wraiths which some should still be alive
Turn 3 drop off the troops on the objective and run my serpent to the next objective if more than one.
Turns 4 and 5 hold my ground.

The knight should draw fire away from the lords so that the lords have time to reach targets and the lords with have 2x cannons/lances so they will be shooting a descent bit too.

Does this sound more like what I should be doing.

Ouch... The sad truth is:
1. Wraithlords are a pointsink.
2. Snipers are useless.
3. Guardians and avengers are a pointsink.
4. By the way, Shining Spears are useless as well.
5. You can never have "One tactics to rule them all'. You should ALWAYS play to the mission adopting to the terrain and opponent you a facing.

Snipers are a clear threat to players when they can score an important kill. It a 60/120 pts that your opponent can not ignore. I had an opponent turn his imperial knight around and deal with my snipers BC I aiming at his rear facing. And troops.

Lords will wreck whatever they can reach. Its just getting them there and blade storm is the multi tool against all non vehical units.

Guardians buy 2 shots for 9 pts each and avengers add 18in range for 13pts

vaurapung wrote:
Snipers are a clear threat to players when they can score an important kill.

I happily ignore snipers all the time, be it Space Marine Scouts, AdMech Rangers, IG Ratlings, Necron Deathmarks or Eldar Rangers. They do almost no harm. And if I have some Ignores Cover weapons they die easily.

vaurapung wrote:

Lords will wreck whatever they can reach.

But they can't. They are just T8 3W 3+ Monsters with 6'' move. They are not immune to poison, LCs wound them at 3+ without armor save, they can not go to ground and so on. So they will be dead way before doing anything. The only reason to take Wraithlord is if you want to field Wraith Host, and even then you'll better give him 2 Scatter lasers and leave home to defend some backfield objective.

By the way the same applies to Avatar, it's too slow for it's stats even with Battle Focus that Wraithlords lacks.

vaurapung wrote:

Guardians buy 2 shots for 9 pts each and avengers add 18in range for 13pts

And being T3 5+ Infantry they die in droves. Ten basic Guardians cost 90 points but for 9 points less (!) you can have a pack of 3 Windriders with Scatter lasers that are better in any possible way. Sorry, but current Codex is not favorable for either Guardians or Avengers. They are mediocre at best.

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Every unit in the codex minus shinning spears is at least average.

What's up with the SS hate?
Sure, they are not as good as scat-bikes, but look at what you get for 25 points....

The Spears
You get a STR 6, AP3 weapon. If you take them in an aspect host they are hitting on 3s against most targets.
They also can all shoot that weapon 6", so before they assault they can blast away, giving them effectively another attack on the charge -- meaning each one has effectively 3 attacks hitting most targets on a 3+. You could make a case for cover saves vs the guns, but I will view that as a wash since it is countered by the lack of loss of models via overwatch and attacking before I10.
This means if you have 6 normal spears assaulting MEQ, you wind up with the following
18 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 2/3 to wound = 12 dead MEQ.

Anti-Vehicle
All those weapons are also lance, so they can glance vehicles to death. Even against a AV13+ target they will strip off 2 HPs on a charge (math shown below). Against anything with a AV10 rear, the vehicle will most likely be wrecked.
18 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 1/6 glance = 2 HP on AV 13+
They can also outlflank, making it easier to get into the enemy backlines.

Exarch
The exarch can bring a star lance, giving an additional STR 8 lance attack, and can reroll anything that does not penetrate. This means that they have 55% chance of penetrating with each hit. Since he will effectively 4 attacks hitting on a 3+, you can expect 1.5 penetrating hits per assault. These are AP2 attacks, so will get a +1 on the table.

Against MC's, they get to reroll to-wound results with a STR 8, AP2 weapon. This means you can expect to get 2-3 wounds on a riptide. I know this is not where Eldar are suffereing, with warp spiders available, but it's another threat to MCs.

All the Extras
They have skilled rider, jink, and hammer of wrath.

T4, and 3+ armor save. They get a 4+ cover save if they move, or 3+ if they want to jink. This makes them moderately durable.

They can move 12", and another 2d6" in the assault phase, giving them an average of a 19" move. They do not care about difficult terrain due to skilled rider, and can land on top of impassable terrain. They also can turbo-boost 36", allowing them to grab objectives nearly anywhere on the board.

I'm not sure why folks think Spears are worthless either, though they do pale in comparison to the other Aspect Warriors (other than maybe Banshees, who got better, but are still weaksauce IMHO). I'm irked that they lost Hit & Run as an option, though - that's infuriating.

The stinkers are Storm Guardians (why, oh why?) and Wraithblades (only good in a Raider, and if I'm doing that, why not Grotesques?).

jade_angel wrote:
The stinkers are Storm Guardians

Normally I can come up with a battlefield role for nearly every unit. Something that will make a unit feasible and workable.
Storm guardians just don't have anything that I can see. Even with free special weapons and power weapons. Even with an avatar giving them rage and warlock buffs, they just ... suck.
Str 3 non-power weapons just don't cut it. You might as well go with banshees.

Speaking of banshees, if you have a way to boost their STR, they get deadly fast. Lets say you have a farseer join the unit and throw 'hammerhand' on it. Suddenly your squad of 10 banshees is tossing 27 STR 5 attacks and 3 STR 7 attacks, all at AP3.

Banshees are superior in every measurable way - they run and charge further, they have better armor, they have better weapons, they can't be attacked with Overwatch, plus the Exarch is actually dangerous.

Storm Guardians seem like they have no idea what they're supposed to be doing, and can't do any of their possible jobs terribly well unless you pile the buffs to the sky. But if you're doing that, you might as well take Wraithguard to ferret guys out of cover, Fire Dragons to hit things with AP1 and Striking Scorpions to hack things up with chainswords.

 labmouse42 wrote:

HoundsofDemos wrote:
Every unit in the codex minus shinning spears is at least average.

What's up with the SS hate?
Sure, they are not as good as scat-bikes, but look at what you get for 25 points....

The Spears
You get a STR 6, AP3 weapon. If you take them in an aspect host they are hitting on 3s against most targets.
They also can all shoot that weapon 6", so before they assault they can blast away, giving them effectively another attack on the charge -- meaning each one has effectively 3 attacks hitting most targets on a 3+. You could make a case for cover saves vs the guns, but I will view that as a wash since it is countered by the lack of loss of models via overwatch and attacking before I10.
This means if you have 6 normal spears assaulting MEQ, you wind up with the following
18 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 2/3 to wound = 12 dead MEQ.

Anti-Vehicle
All those weapons are also lance, so they can glance vehicles to death. Even against a AV13+ target they will strip off 2 HPs on a charge (math shown below). Against anything with a AV10 rear, the vehicle will most likely be wrecked.
18 attacks * 2/3 to hit * 1/6 glance = 2 HP on AV 13+
They can also outlflank, making it easier to get into the enemy backlines.

Exarch
The exarch can bring a star lance, giving an additional STR 8 lance attack, and can reroll anything that does not penetrate. This means that they have 55% chance of penetrating with each hit. Since he will effectively 4 attacks hitting on a 3+, you can expect 1.5 penetrating hits per assault. These are AP2 attacks, so will get a +1 on the table.

Against MC's, they get to reroll to-wound results with a STR 8, AP2 weapon. This means you can expect to get 2-3 wounds on a riptide. I know this is not where Eldar are suffereing, with warp spiders available, but it's another threat to MCs.

All the Extras
They have skilled rider, jink, and hammer of wrath.

T4, and 3+ armor save. They get a 4+ cover save if they move, or 3+ if they want to jink. This makes them moderately durable.

They can move 12", and another 2d6" in the assault phase, giving them an average of a 19" move. They do not care about difficult terrain due to skilled rider, and can land on top of impassable terrain. They also can turbo-boost 36", allowing them to grab objectives nearly anywhere on the board.

Because they're melee units with 1 wound for 25 points in an edition utterly dominated by shooting and in a codex filled with some of the most broken units 40k has ever seen. They're not truely bad, just bad in comparison to everything else in the eldar book, since for 2 more points a model, you get 4 str 6 attacks at 36" on a troops choice with almost all the same movement and defensive benefits. Remember, these guys are just MEQ's when it comes down to it, and MEQ's are trivial to kill for any codex that matters. The reason why scat bikes are insanely strong is because they can stay out of retaliation range, so their MEQ profile doesn't matter since they don't get shot, whereas you are espousing the virtues of driving 25 point MEQ's up the table into short range of the enemy. As someone who plays 23 point MEQ units with a 4++ to fall back on against AP1/2/3 on a regular basis, the instant they get out of their transport, they're dead or combat ineffective the next enemy shooting phase.

Unless you're T5+ multi wound with a 4++ or better and preferably FNP (or can assault from deep strike *cough*skyhammer*cough*), you're not going to be an effective assault unit because you're not going to get there. You could be str D with a billion attacks, but if you never get to swing, it's not really relevant.

Every unit has a gimmick but effectively pulling off said gimmick can be difficult. Wind riders are cheap but they die to the same volumes of fire that any other unit does. From what I've experinnced if my opponent can kill my guardians they can kill anything in my book. Most all weapons used against me seem to be at least s6 if not hirer, volume fires and blast templets so 3 wind riders will die the same as 10 guardians. And lords/knights will die to wound rolls of 6s. So effectively all eldar are weak to being attacked units with invulns. Knight, vehicals, dire avengers can have 5++. Psykers and blades with axe and shield get a 4++. Pales in comparison to most marine/grey knights list packing hammers and shields with a feel no pain(just like wind riders are the "only" way so are nearly invincible terminators in every marine list). Nids get flying cross the board. That's what I feel like I see a lot of. Fly rants and terminators.

 Drasius wrote:
Because they're melee units with 1 wound for 25 points in an edition utterly dominated by shooting and in a codex filled with some of the most broken units 40k has ever seen. They're not truely bad, just bad in comparison to everything else in the eldar book, since for 2 more points a model, you get 4 str 6 attacks at 36" on a troops choice with almost all the same movement and defensive benefits..

Everything you said is true. In fact, at the start of my post, I even said scat-bikes are better.

That being said, they are not BAD. You would not want to bring 50 of them in a 1500 point game for the reasons you mentioned.
I have been using one squad of 6 with an exarch and star lance. They clock in at 170pts, and I outflank them. Thus far they have been good at hitting backfield squads, or destroying vehicles. Given the unit cost, if they get wiped out after doing their job, it's no big deal.
Why am I using them? Economics. I had some hellions I converted to SS. At $13.66 per model retail, I don't really want to buy an army of scat-bikes.

At least Shining Spears can get a WS or BS bonus. Storm Guardians and Wraithlords are just...bad.

vaurapung wrote:
Wind riders are cheap but they die to the same volumes of fire that any other unit does. From what I've experinnced if my opponent can kill my guardians they can kill anything in my book. Most all weapons used against me seem to be at least s6 if not hirer, volume fires and blast templets so 3 wind riders will die the same as 10 guardians.

It means you are using them wrong. Their maneuverability is just unsurpassed in all codexes and Scatter lasers' range of fire alongside the ability to jump in the assault phase give you all you need to avoid enemy's fire. You should always present your opponent with multiple treats as well to make him confused and force him to either split his fire or let most of your army do what you want it to do. If your Wraithknight is heading towards enemy's line they will not spend said S6 shot for your Windriders -- they will go for a big game. And if your Warp Spiders and Hawks are raiding his backfield killing infantry and artillery crewmen he will also be forced to do something with them. And then Windriders will go for a Maelstrom missions and win the game. It is usually called "team work"

Never shoot the wk unless you have d weapons or grav cannons. You much better off killing the scat bikes.

So 1000 pt test game tonight. 1 knight 2 lords rangers and avengers with 1 serpent. First game against tau. Troops in and around bunker, crisis suits with HQ, tank with seeker missiles and sniper drones. Knight destroyed bunker lord with star cannon and lance killed most snipers turn 1 and one lord died.
Turn 2 my other lord died and my knight took 3 wounds total. Turn three my serpent with avengers and warlock as HQ come in. By end turn 5 we each have 1 objective because my avengers swiped one and my serpent drove off to contest another. Rolled to see if we continued and we had 2 more turns which I was tabled in. So my theory worked but time was against me. Oh btw, my knight had 2 scatters and fired them for 5 turns and killed only 3 units. Everything gets a good save.
8x.66x.833 is only 4 wounds but 2+ cover or 3/4+ armour just denies it. I needed to assault but the volume of fire in overwatch wld kill me.