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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 17:28:00
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-35419090
David Cameron is facing Labour calls to apologise for calling refugees at a camp in Calais "a bunch of migrants" at Prime Minister's Questions.
Labour MP Yvette Cooper said it was not "appropriate" or "statesmanlike" for him to use such language about a "complex and sensitive" issue.
Shadow minister Kate Green said it was "offensive, hurtful... and divisive".
Mr Cameron said Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn had told the migrants at the camp "they could all come to Britain".
At the weekend, the Labour leader visited the Grande-Synthe Camp, near Dunkirk, and The Jungle in Calais, where more than 7,000 people are sleeping rough, describing conditions there as "disgraceful".
Mr Cameron was coming to the end of a clash with Jeremy Corbyn about Google's tax deal with the government, when he decided, as he often does, to broaden out his attack to other issues.
The Labour leader had just accused him of failing to stand up to Google.
Mr Cameron replied: "The shadow chancellor's pointing - the idea that those two right honourable gentlemen would stand up to anyone in this regard is laughable.
"Look at the record over the last week - they met with the unions and they gave them flying pickets.
"They met with the Argentinians, they gave them the Falkland Islands.
"They met with a bunch of migrants in Calais, they said they could all come to Britain.
"The only people they never stand up for are the British people and hard-working taxpayers."
Several Labour MPs objected to Mr Cameron's "bunch of migrants" comments on Twitter, describing them as "shameful" and "inflammatory" and the PM as "odious".
A Labour spokesman said Mr Cameron's use of the phrase "demonstrates an attitude that is wholly unacceptable to a humanitarian crisis on our doorstep".
Yvette Cooper, who is chairing Labour's refugee task force, said Mr Cameron should use "much more statesmanship-like" language on such a "complex and sensitive" issue, particularly given ongoing commemorations of Holocaust victims.
She got to her feet immediately after Prime Minister's Questions to raise a point of order
She asked Commons Speaker John Bercow to ask Mr Cameron to "withdraw" the comment.
Mr Bercow told Ms Cooper: "You speak with enormous experience in this House and I respect what you say.
"I completely identify and empathise with your observations about Holocaust Memorial Day, which you and I on other occasions have marked at events together - so I take what you say extremely seriously."
He ruled that it was not "disorderly" or "un-Parliamentary" but added "people will make their own assessments of this matter".
Is it just me, or does this seem like a lot of taking offence purely to take offence? I mean, the vast majority of the inhabitants of the Calais camps are young men, who self-profess to want to get to Britain because of better work prospects. Whilst some of them come from pretty rough places, they're not there to claim refuge (because if they were, they're sitting in a First World country, with a Government registration office a few miles away and nothing stopping them).
Speaking as someone who's actually been a refugee, I find this desire to lump (what are essentially) economic migrants in with refugees bizare, and the need to link it to the Holocaust for good measure somewhat distasteful.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 17:37:00
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Fixture of Dakka
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Ketara wrote:Is it just me, or does this seem like a lot of taking offence purely to take offence?
Welcome to the twenty-teens.
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"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 17:43:36
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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While I agree that David Cameron is generally 'odious', 'shameful' and 'inflammatory'  in this case, yeah, Cooper was just looking to start a fight by the sound of it. Throwing in the Holocaust Memorials which have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand in any way is incredibly pointless, and it seems obvious that was done purely to push people's buttons.
As for the matter of classing them as migrants or refugees itself, I think there are large portions of both. Some will be genuinely seeking asylum, some will be (and have stated that they are) coming to Britain specifically for work and/or welfare, some will probably straddle the two categories.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 17:53:32
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Paradigm wrote:While I agree that David Cameron is generally 'odious', 'shameful' and 'inflammatory'  in this case, yeah, Cooper was just looking to start a fight by the sound of it. Throwing in the Holocaust Memorials which have absolutely nothing to do with the matter at hand in any way is incredibly pointless, and it seems obvious that was done purely to push people's buttons.
As for the matter of classing them as migrants or refugees itself, I think there are large portions of both. Some will be genuinely seeking asylum, some will be (and have stated that they are) coming to Britain specifically for work and/or welfare, some will probably straddle the two categories.
The stats I've seen put the number of young men at about 70-80% of the number of migrants sat in Calais. The proportion is actually skewed enough towards young men from North Africa that there's been issues with women having to bunk in together for fear of assault.
I don't understand the concept of being a 'refugee' in France though. If you're in France, you've made it. You're safe. There's a system of free speech, and aid packages in place to help refugees. There's employment enough, accommodation enough, your kids will be educated, and your medical conditions treated.
The only reason to dwell in a squalid camp to get to Britain is if you have an alternative reason for trying to get there. Namely, you're seeking work, or following family, or something. And whilst some of those motivations are very understandable, that doesn't change the fact that by trying to get to Britain to get to claim refugee status when in France already, you're not really a 'refugee' any more. You're just trying to pick and mix what you want best, as opposed to fleeing (or being a refugee) from something.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/27 18:29:48
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 18:01:07
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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Very true. I have found it quite strange when people claiming to be refugees are sitting in a stable democratic country with aid in place. I have no issue with economic migrants coming into the UK, but now I think about it, there's something slightly off about people trying to do it under the guise of being a refugee. But then, that does raise the question are the people in Calais calling themselves refugees, or is that something that's just being projected onto them to get public sympathy in the UK? Again, the answer is probably a bit of both, but I do find the back and forth every Party and the media seem to be doing over the issue rather bizarre. One minute they're a menace trying to force their way in, the next they're desperate and displaced, then they're back to being a problem for us, then we don't care, then we do... so on and so forth. If anyone from France or Germany or elsewhere in Europe are reading this thread, how is your media covering the Calais situation? Are the terms 'refugee' being used as often as they are over here? Is it even getting a great deal of coverage?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/27 18:02:27
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 18:32:55
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Hallowed Canoness
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Are those people allowed to live and do stuff in France? Or are they actually locked up inside the camp with no authorization to go out and live normally in France?
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"Our fantasy settings are grim and dark, but that is not a reflection of who we are or how we feel the real world should be. [...] We will continue to diversify the cast of characters we portray [...] so everyone can find representation and heroes they can relate to. [...] If [you don't feel the same way], you will not be missed"
https://twitter.com/WarComTeam/status/1268665798467432449/photo/1 |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 18:38:00
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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Paradigm wrote:While I agree that David Cameron is generally 'odious', 'shameful' and 'inflammatory'  in this case, yeah, Cooper was just looking to start a fight by the sound of it.
Basically, although it does further highlight Dave's deficiencies as a statesman.
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My PLog
Curently: DZC
Set phasers to malkie! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 18:48:05
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Annoyed Blood Angel Devastator
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Paradigm wrote:If anyone from France or Germany or elsewhere in Europe are reading this thread, how is your media covering the Calais situation? Are the terms 'refugee' being used as often as they are over here? Is it even getting a great deal of coverage?
The media over here use the terms migrants and refugees as synonyms most of the time unless the story has either particular left or right wing slant, then one of the two is used consistently. Calais doesn't receive much coverage except for the nuisance it causes transportation. Currently, local opposition to refugee centers, the possible collapse of Schengen and violence like Cologne receive far more attention.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 18:50:39
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:Are those people allowed to live and do stuff in France? Or are they actually locked up inside the camp with no authorization to go out and live normally in France?
They're unregistered illegal immigrants who the French Government chooses to ignore in the hope that they'll leave for Britain or Germany, and thus be someone else's problem. So they can't do anything legally in France (because they're unregistered as a matter of choice), but their movement isn't restricted in any way.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/27 18:51:08
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 19:43:18
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Pragmatic Primus Commanding Cult Forces
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But...
They are a bunch of migrants, right? I mean, they are trying to move to a different country, so that makes them migrants. And there is a large group of them at Calais, so that makes them a bunch, right?
What is the problem?
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Error 404: Interesting signature not found
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 19:47:26
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Is 'Eavy Metal Calling?
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That's exactly the point, there isn't a problem with the terms used, except the one that the Labour party are trying to create. While politically I do support them, I do think this particular tactic is a little contrived.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 20:02:09
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Iron_Captain wrote:But...
They are a bunch of migrants, right? I mean, they are trying to move to a different country, so that makes them migrants. And there is a large group of them at Calais, so that makes them a bunch, right?
What is the problem?
It depends on how much stank he used with the word and if he rolled his eyes, naturally.
"They met with a bunch of migrants in Calais, they said they could all come to Britain."
versus
"They met with a bunch of migrants *eye roll* in Calais, they said they could all come to Britain."
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DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 20:02:46
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Inquisitorial Keeper of the Xenobanks
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Euh... Is "a bunch of migrants" negative in any way ?
I mean they ARE migrants...
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 20:06:06
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Fixture of Dakka
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It is if you're a rival politician.
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"The Omnissiah is my Moderati" |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 20:11:28
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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godardc wrote:Euh... Is "a bunch of migrants" negative in any way ? I mean they ARE migrants... You and your family are a bunch of French. Context is what matters. He's saying that the *other guys* are pandering to foreigners and not the good old, hard working, British tax payers to score points or something. "They met with the Argentinians, they gave them the Falkland Islands. "They met with a bunch of migrants in Calais, they said they could all come to Britain. "The only people they never stand up for are the British people and hard-working taxpayers." It's like he's using a US politician's playbook!
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/27 20:12:15
DA:70S+G+M+B++I++Pw40k08+D++A++/fWD-R+T(M)DM+
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 20:45:30
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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I dislike "Call Me Dave" Cameron as much as the next Northerner, but this really is just silly. If people want to criticise him, then they should at least find something worth criticising; it's not like there's a dearth of topics.
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Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 21:34:37
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Dakka Veteran
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The problem is avatar, comrade corben. They cant say anything thats not approved buy the central committe, oh i mean office as he dosent like free thinking in his party. Or at least if the benches want any form of responsibility.
Which is a shame as a good strong opposition is needed what ever there political leaning and it seems its just not there at the moment.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 22:10:42
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Battlefortress Driver with Krusha Wheel
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Skullhammer wrote:The problem is avatar, comrade corben. They cant say anything thats not approved buy the central committe, oh i mean office as he dosent like free thinking in his party. Or at least if the benches want any form of responsibility.
You mean the various Blairites who have already been beaten in 2 back to back elections and who choose to ignore the huge mandate that the Labour membership gave to Jeremy Corbyn by attempting to carry on as the red tories?
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My PLog
Curently: DZC
Set phasers to malkie! |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 23:23:06
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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I don't know what labour are trying to achieve here. Public sympathies are not with a swarm of people, mostly men, who have made their way across Europe illegally and are regularly filmed charging onto ferries and breaking into lorries and intimidating their drivers.
Meanwhile this fuss has distracted from the way Osborne managed to call getting bugger all tax out of Google some great victory.
Labour need to get their priorities in order.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 23:41:31
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Howard A Treesong wrote:I don't know what labour are trying to achieve here. Public sympathies are not with a swarm of people, mostly men, who have made their way across Europe illegally and are regularly filmed charging onto ferries and breaking into lorries and intimidating their drivers.
Meanwhile this fuss has distracted from the way Osborne managed to call getting bugger all tax out of Google some great victory.
Labour need to get their priorities in order.
Violent attacks on lorries, port, there's a reason the tunnel is now a literal moated fortress.
There hardly winning sympathy storming ferries and forcing crew and passengers to barricade on upper deck for hours.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 23:51:07
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[SWAP SHOP MOD]
Killer Klaivex
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jhe90 wrote:.
Violent attacks on lorries, port, there's a reason the tunnel is now a literal moated fortress.
There hardly winning sympathy storming ferries and forcing crew and passengers to barricade on upper deck for hours.
I could understand it if it was Saudi Arabia over the channel, but France?
Maybe some people just really don't take to baguettes and onions?
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/27 23:52:05
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Decrepit Dakkanaut
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Howard A Treesong wrote:Meanwhile this fuss has distracted from the way Osborne managed to call getting bugger all tax out of Google some great victory.
I've seen more than a few places suggesting that the comment was a pre-planned dead cat to serve just that purpose.
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Mandorallen turned back toward the insolently sneering baron. 'My Lord,' The great knight said distantly, 'I find thy face apelike and thy form misshapen. Thy beard, moreover, is an offence against decency, resembling more closely the scabrous fur which doth decorate the hinder portion of a mongrel dog than a proper adornment for a human face. Is it possibly that thy mother, seized by some wild lechery, did dally at some time past with a randy goat?' - Mimbrate Knight Protector Mandorallen.
Excerpt from "Seeress of Kell", Book Five of The Malloreon series by David Eddings.
My deviantART Profile - Pay No Attention To The Man Behind The Madness
"You need not fear us, unless you are a dark heart, a vile one who preys on the innocent; I promise, you can’t hide forever in the empty darkness, for we will hunt you down like the animals you are, and pull you into the very bowels of hell." Iron - Within Temptation |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 07:18:35
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Dakka Veteran
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Could be. Avatar but at 0700 28/1 its being reported that these migrants have had a running gun battle with police a stabbing and a woman hospitalized from blows to the head. There own actions are not exactly endering them to the locals or the uk.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france/12124977/Religious-tensions-spark-gunfight-in-French-migrant-camp.html
Added link for the story.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/01/28 10:18:38
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 08:17:44
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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godardc wrote:Euh... Is "a bunch of migrants" negative in any way ?
I mean they ARE migrants...
Bunch is below 'group' (of people) but above 'gang' (of hooligans) or 'swarm' (of insects) in a league table of possible terms that might be applied to crowds of people.
So it is slightly negative, but not really very much, and the effort spent by Labour on this issue is a thorough waste. Most British people probably are horrified by the scenes of the Calais migrants trying to gate-crash on to trains, lorries and ferries.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 10:49:29
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness
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So, the article opens by saying that the attacks are thought to involve rival groups of people smugglers (who, by the way, are not refugees), but then spends the rest of the article discussing how bad muslims are because it's tangentially related to the reasons for the clashes. It's a very sneakily written piece, I'll give it that.
The headline also seems a bit off. "Rival people smugglers clash in gun battle" seems more accurate based on the information presented within.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 11:00:04
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Keeper of the Holy Orb of Antioch
avoiding the lorax on Crion
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Goliath wrote: So, the article opens by saying that the attacks are thought to involve rival groups of people smugglers (who, by the way, are not refugees), but then spends the rest of the article discussing how bad muslims are because it's tangentially related to the reasons for the clashes. It's a very sneakily written piece, I'll give it that.
The headline also seems a bit off. "Rival people smugglers clash in gun battle" seems more accurate based on the information presented within.
Recent you gov polling etc put 70% ish as not wanting migrants from Calais, with also the stories of port, tunnel and lorry attacks, people smugglers in jungle with guns and organised crime, you can see why the position is such.
Add recent news from Germanny, Norway and others, yeah migrants are not exactly darlings of the press.
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Sgt. Vanden - OOC Hey, that was your doing. I didn't choose to fly in the "Dongerprise'.
"May the odds be ever in your favour"
Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
I have no clue how Dakka's moderation work. I expect it involves throwing a lot of d100 and looking at many random tables.
FudgeDumper - It could be that you are just so uncomfortable with the idea of your chapters primarch having his way with a docile tyranid spore cyst, that you must deny they have any feelings at all. |
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 11:10:44
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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It's important to remember there are various types of migrants, most of who have proper legal status and procedures to deal with them; refugees, asylum seekers, foreign workers and foreign spouses.
It is only the economic migrant who has left his country for the chance of getting a better life somewhere else, who has no legal right to be considered for accomodation in a country. Sadly, most of the migrants in Calais seem to be this type.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 11:14:04
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Sheffield, City of University and Northern-ness
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jhe90 wrote: Goliath wrote: So, the article opens by saying that the attacks are thought to involve rival groups of people smugglers (who, by the way, are not refugees), but then spends the rest of the article discussing how bad muslims are because it's tangentially related to the reasons for the clashes. It's a very sneakily written piece, I'll give it that. The headline also seems a bit off. "Rival people smugglers clash in gun battle" seems more accurate based on the information presented within. Recent you gov polling etc put 70% ish as not wanting migrants from Calais, with also the stories of port, tunnel and lorry attacks, people smugglers in jungle with guns and organised crime, you can see why the position is such. Add recent news from Germanny, Norway and others, yeah migrants are not exactly darlings of the press.
And how much of that dislike is due to sloppy reporting like that article? As to the organised crime, it's almost like that's what happens when a government creates a shanty town and puts their unwanted there. Automatically Appended Next Post: Kilkrazy wrote:It's important to remember there are various types of migrants, most of who have proper legal status and procedures to deal with them; refugees, asylum seekers, foreign workers and foreign spouses. It is only the economic migrant who has left his country for the chance of getting a better life somewhere else, who has no legal right to be considered for accomodation in a country. Sadly, most of the migrants in Calais seem to be this type.
Surely all of the former would also fall into the latter category? it's a different scale, but someone running from genocide is still coming in the hopes of a better life. (there's an article relating to the experiences of someone working in the jungle that I read a week or two ago; I'll try and find it on my lunch break)
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2016/01/28 11:16:22
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 11:32:30
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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[MOD]
Anti-piracy Officer
Somewhere in south-central England.
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A refugee from genocide, of course is hoping for a better life. It would be a syllogism to suppose that everyone hoping for a better life is a refugee from genocide.
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![[Post New]](/s/i/i.gif) 2016/01/28 14:09:11
Subject: Calais Immigrants a 'Bunch of Migrants' -Suitable?
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Wrathful Warlord Titan Commander
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Kilkrazy wrote:It's important to remember there are various types of migrants, most of who have proper legal status and procedures to deal with them; refugees, asylum seekers, foreign workers and foreign spouses.
It is only the economic migrant who has left his country for the chance of getting a better life somewhere else, who has no legal right to be considered for accomodation in a country. Sadly, most of the migrants in Calais seem to be this type.
But until they identify themselves as refugees to the proper authorities then they will be classed as illegal immigrants. Which of course they should do in the first EU state they enter. I'm afraid the French Government really do themselves and the French people by allowing this debacle to go on for so long. Round them up and process them, let the residents of Calais have the security of their town back.
No Reason for the PM to apologise for calling a bunch of illegal immigrants a "bunch of immigrants". Usual boring non-news that takes up far too much of the media space.
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How do you promote your Hobby? - Legoburner "I run some crappy wargaming website " |
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