Curse of the Wulfen - Daemon releases

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**CrownAxe**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:
That 3++ relic is actually so bad. 5 points more than a Stormshied and it can kill you. Why?

Because its on a Tzeentch model that rerolls 1s to save. Also since it will probably also be a psyker has a good chance of also getting Cursed Earth and turning that 3++ into a rerollable 2++

**Matt.Kingsley**

That's a good point. I did forget about that.

**Swampmist**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Swampmist wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

So, you have one of the longest ranged D weapons, second only to the Wraithknight and the Titans, and you can guarantee it with a relic. Sounds good to me, seeing as you can have a ton of charges to cast with.

Except that Tzeentch's main issues, especially with mono Tzeentch, is that Tzeentch powers cost too many WC's for too few shots!!

Horrors are garbage still! Their one main job is to act as magical artillery. It takes on average 7-8WC's to cast their basic spell - Flickering Fire, reliably, and then you still have to roll for the number of shots fired, (4D6), which then have to still hit (with only BS3), then wound (usually on 3's or 2's depending on toughness and/or a Tzherald w/Locus boost), and then get through armour/cover/invuln/FnP, and then you have a chance to possibly boost the unit you just shot at with FnP!

Tzeentch worked fine in 6th because you had actual volume of fire between Tzheralds buffing Horrors. Now, 7th has nerfed Witchfires in general into the ground, and our Warpflame based attacks are split between an unplayable psychic shooting mechanic AND the Shooting phase!

Tzeentch is still complete trash. Unless we get a formation that allows Pinkies to harness on a 2+, my army is still relegated to being a LoC delivery system, boring summon spam which gets me labeled a TFG, and Horrors who are better at flipping battle tanks and beating face than they are at ****ing MAGIC!

OK... so, is 2WC too much for a D shot? I don't personally think so, compared to the other things in the game, but maybe I'm wrong. I do agree they should have a psychic formation of some kind though...

**Kanluwen**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Swampmist wrote:
Dat 6 though. Infinite D shots.

How is it infinite Str.D shots? It's a paltry 18", and likely will be at least WC2, if not even WC3.
Tzeentch is still the most useless God, and likely will still have the crappiest lore of the 3.

The Daemon Prince formation is complete garbage... Spend the better part of 1000-1200pts for +1T/+1S? Seriously, that's hilariously bad!

The effects are cumulative. If you have all 4 DPs alive at once, they get all the benefits.

Additionally if your Warlord is in the formation, all the Daemon Princes gain the Warlord's trait from what luchiban was saying.

**Experiment 626**

Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:
Let's go with Tzeetch:

Artefacts:

Paradox: AP4, Combat, Once per turn you can, after rolling for a psychic power turn the dices around. So, for example a roll of 1, 3 and 5, becomes 2, 4 and 6. 25 points

Unending grimorie: Bearer knows all the powers of the change discipline. 35 points

Scourge of souls: Combat, Fleshbane, AP is equal to the I of the target. Against vehicles is AP1. 15 points

Oracle disc: Disc of Tzeenth. At the beginning of your turn choose a unit in Reserves. That unit enters the game automatically. 35 points.

"Unable to translate": Bearer gets 3++ save, Every time bearer suffers a wound must take a Ld test. If failed is removed from game. 25 points.

Eternal staff. Combat, AP4, soulblaze or Template, S5, AP3 Soulblaze. 20 points

Paradox is trash. But then, every list I guess has to have a complete an utter stinker.

Unending Grimoire will depend entirely on the Warp Charge costs of the new powers... If the Str.D shot is WC3 this one's pretty bad. Any Warpflame based shooting requires volume of fire, and in general, Tzeentch powers cost far too many WC's to viably spam.

Scourge of Souls. Good for a DP, pointless on a LoC because the Boomstick is 5pts less and gives that magical S8 sweet spot.

Oracle Disc. Handy for Flamer bombs. Will have to see the wording of the relic itself - if it's *ANY* unit in reserves, then it can probably pull some nasty tricks. If it's only a Tzeentch unit which the bearer has to be a part of, then not so much...

3++ save one will be lamented as broken and OP by every single non-Daemon player.

Eternal Staff. Hopefully no Warpflame attached to the shooting attack. As a combat weapon, it's still useless for a LoC because the Boomstick is half the cost and again, better in every single way you can imagine!
Still probably an auto-buy for any Disc Tzheralds out there.

**Requizen**

Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

**Valhalla4ever**

Hey Luchiban! Thank you!

**Experiment 626**

Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

**AncientSkarbrand**

I don't quite understand how paradox is supposed to work.

**Requizen**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

**CrownAxe**

Well fleshbane is better then s8 against T7 or higher and are identical against T6 and less.

**Lance845**

Question: does the current tau empire book on the shelves include the taucurion and such or do you need to buy a separate campaign book to acompany it? And if it does include that stuff wouldn't there be a regular deamon book soon after this fancy one with the same core bells and whistles?

**aracersss**

Lance845 wrote:
Question: does the current tau empire book on the shelves include the taucurion and such?

Yes it does, and we have no clue if CD & SW will ever get a fancy new cover ... cough cough I mean book later this month

**Abadabadoobaddon**

So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

**CrownAxe**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

**Red Shyft**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Iuchiban wrote:
Let's go with Tzeetch:

Artefacts:

Paradox: AP4, Combat, Once per turn you can, after rolling for a psychic power turn the dices around. So, for example a roll of 1, 3 and 5, becomes 2, 4 and 6. 25 points

Unending grimorie: Bearer knows all the powers of the change discipline. 35 points

Scourge of souls: Combat, Fleshbane, AP is equal to the I of the target. Against vehicles is AP1. 15 points

Oracle disc: Disc of Tzeenth. At the beginning of your turn choose a unit in Reserves. That unit enters the game automatically. 35 points.

"Unable to translate": Bearer gets 3++ save, Every time bearer suffers a wound must take a Ld test. If failed is removed from game. 25 points.

Eternal staff. Combat, AP4, soulblaze or Template, S5, AP3 Soulblaze. 20 points

Paradox is trash. But then, every list I guess has to have a complete an utter stinker.

Unending Grimoire will depend entirely on the Warp Charge costs of the new powers... If the Str.D shot is WC3 this one's pretty bad. Any Warpflame based shooting requires volume of fire, and in general, Tzeentch powers cost far too many WC's to viably spam.

Scourge of Souls. Good for a DP, pointless on a LoC because the Boomstick is 5pts less and gives that magical S8 sweet spot.

Oracle Disc. Handy for Flamer bombs. Will have to see the wording of the relic itself - if it's *ANY* unit in reserves, then it can probably pull some nasty tricks. If it's only a Tzeentch unit which the bearer has to be a part of, then not so much...

3++ save one will be lamented as broken and OP by every single non-Daemon player.

Eternal Staff. Hopefully no Warpflame attached to the shooting attack. As a combat weapon, it's still useless for a LoC because the Boomstick is half the cost and again, better in every single way you can imagine!
Still probably an auto-buy for any Disc Tzheralds out there.

You're kidding, right? Paradox guarantees a cast of a warp charge 3 power on 5 dice. Guaranteed summoning every turn? Yes, please.

Edit: But will this stack with something like Unending Grimoire?
Edit 2: Or Be'lakor?

**Abadabadoobaddon**

CrownAxe wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

**Swampmist**

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

But, don;t you summon more flamers with the power? and yeah, thought the exalteds where relentless, kinda assumed they where MCs I guess. Woops.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Swampmist wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
CrownAxe wrote:
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So I guess the question is can a model take multiple artefacts? Because Paradox + Unending Grimoire = Unending Exalted Flamers.

Unknown as of yet. (also I don't know why you'd want to summon Exalted Flamers since they can't shot on the turn they are summoned or move)

Forgot they were heavy. WC3 is a little pricy for the chariot and you can summon flamers all day long with the malefic primaris (assuming daemons still get malefic). Nevermind, that power is pointless.

But, don;t you summon more flamers with the power? and yeah, thought the exalteds where relentless, kinda assumed they where MCs I guess. Woops.

Nope. 3 in both cases.

**Slayer le boucher**

Daemon Decurión is called Daemonic Incursion

Special rules:
- Demonic corruption: Objetive tokens count always as controlled, if at least they were controlled by a Demon unit before. This Works even if the unit is destroyed.
- Warp unleashed: Reroll instability
- Demonic Power: +1 or -1 to the Warp Strom table after rolling

**Experiment 626**

Requizen wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

**MasterSlowPoke**

Yeah, you swap all the dice. Passes are fails and visa versa. It's impossible to failure on 5 dice.

**Abadabadoobaddon**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pigeonhole_principle

**Requizen**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

What? It's literally a free cast. If I'm reading it right, you just flip all dice over. Dice are designed so the opposite of any 1-3 is a 4-6, so it basically says "turn any fails into passes and vice versa".

WC1 power? Roll 1 dice and you can flip it. WC2 dice? Roll 3 and if you roll either 2 or 3 fails it then passes. WC3? Roll 5 (which is less than I wpuld normally roll for WC3) and you need to roll 3 to 5 fails to not pass, which flips to a pass.

So as long as you roll a smart number of dice, the artifact reads "turn any one fail into a pass per turn", which is amazing for 25 points. Especially for Summoning, which is mostly WC3.

Take this on at least 1 Herald per game imo.

No. The way the leak presents it, you have to swap *all* the dice. (the example roll of 1, 3 & 5, thus becomes 2, 4 & 6 instead)

*IF* that's how it works, it sucks monkey balls.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

First, look at a dice. Notice that opposite sides always add up to 7. So, 1 is opposite 6, 2 is opposite 5, 3 is opposite 4. As you may notice, a WC pass is always opposite a WC fail.

So if you have Pass Fail Fail on a WC2 power, that all flips to Fail Pass Pass. And you pass. For free.

If you have a WC3 power and go Fail Fail Fail Pass Pass, you flip all and have 3 passes and 2 fails. You pass. For free.

It's an amazing item for 25 points.

**Leggy**

if you don't have to declare you're using Paradox before rolling, and it works on any casting roll (not just the bearers), it's exceptional. It guarantees a 5 dice cast for WC3 (or a 3 dice for WC2, or a 1 dice for WC1) but if you make the roll first time (which you will half the time) you can skimp on dice for your next cast too. It simply makes casting far more cost efficient, as it removes risk. And you get this every turn. Unless there's a catch, it's an auto include.

**skarsol**

I guarantee it will be bearer only or else within x" of bearer.

**Lance845**

skarsol wrote:
I guarantee it will be bearer only or else within x" of bearer.

Both are fair.

**Red Corsair**

Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

**meep277**

Red Corsair wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

I saw you said "letting you grim something else." Is the Grimoire still a thing?

**CrownAxe**

meep277 wrote:
Red Corsair wrote:
Experiment 626 wrote:
Requizen wrote:
Paradox is legit, it's a guaranteed cast per turn if you're not dumb. Just as good if not better than that Farseer relic.

Scourge of Souls is pretty good on a Daemon Prince or LoC.

Can't wait for Nurgle!

Paradox is 'meh'. You literally need to roll a perfect storm scenario for it to be good.

Scourge of Souls is 100% useless on a LoC! Why on earth would ever buy it for him, when for 10 measly pts, you get at initiative S8/ap2 attacks?! Boomstick is easily the one and only weapon a LoC will ever want, simply because S8 is the literal 'magic number' for any combat unit in the game! (unless you can get easy multi-attack S10 of course!)
Sure it's stupid that a LoC with a glorified golf club is stronger than the manifestation of pure rage & hatred, but, Tzeentch has so little going for him currently that it's his one huge advantage for now.

DP's sure, I can see them liking the Scourge because the Boomstick is an actual risk for them to swing around. But the LoC is T6 and is almost *never* going to be wounded by his 'splodey stick.
Even *I* have only managed to kill off my LoC once with the Boomstick, and my dice are so bad they typically defy Rippley's Believe It or Not!

Seriously? Are you sure? The paradox literally lets you auto cast WC 1 powers and using 3 dice auto casts wc2 and with 5 dice you auto succeed WC3 powers. That's insanely useful, instead of rolling for powers with that psycher you essentially are just allocating dice to powers you won't to go off. If you don't think thats amazing I don't think there is a relic that could help you.

The 25 pt relic is also insane, it basically auto grimoires the bearer, letting you grim something else as well. Your rerolling 1's, oh and with the paradox your auto casting cursed earth btw.

Edit, I see others have also noticed well before me, glad to see most people get it. That thing is gross.

I saw you said "letting you grim something else." Is the Grimoire still a thing?

We don't know. But since all the new relics have their own point costs (as opposed to being a 0 option for the 30 pt Exalted Reward) they probably aren't replacing the Hellforged Artifacts at all.