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The codex says "Each Astra Militarum Detachment may include 0-3 Ministorum Priests..."

And the rulebook says "Formations are a special type of detachment"

I played someone who attached 3 to his armoured company (using IA 1 2nd edition), saying that counts as an Astra Militarum detachment. Is that the case?

Also he said he could do the same if he took an all tank Cadian list from the Mont'ka book....

Basically we like to keep battleforged for use in tournaments (so he cant just add it...). It really all boils down to.... what constitutes a detachment when taking models which dont use up a force organisation slot?

Thoughts and comments please

Thanks

Well, each unit has a related faction. So, if a unit is composed entirely of Astra Militarum models then it is an astra militarum detachment.

Every freaking week.

Going straight for this one before the lock:

Under selecting detachments it is talking about FOC detachments, the first point(#1) is the FOC.

Move down to "Force Organization Charts and Slots" and you will find a rules heading: "Army list entries that do not use Force Organization Slots". Read the second sentence: "These units can be used in any detachment, even if all the slots for that battlefield role are filled with other units or if the detachment had no slots for their battlefield role, but they must adhere to any restrictions detailed in the detachment or its own Army list entry."

A) formations do not use slots.

B) all the rules involved are for FOC detachments.

C) Formations tell you exactly which Army List Entries they are comprised of(making others a detachment restriction).

No, you cannot add minisortium priests, primaris psykers, nor commissars to AM formations.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Every freaking week.

Going straight for this one before the lock:

Under selecting detachments it is talking about FOC detachments, the first point(#1) is the FOC.

Move down to "Force Organization Charts and Slots" and you will find a rules heading: "Army list entries that do not use Force Organization Slots". Read the second sentence: "These units can be used in any detachment, even if all the slots for that battlefield role are filled with other units or if the detachment had no slots for their battlefield role, but they must adhere to any restrictions detailed in the detachment or its own Army list entry."

A) formations do not use slots.

B) all the rules involved are for FOC detachments.

C) Formations tell you exactly which Army List Entries they are comprised of(making others a detachment restriction).

No, you cannot add minisortium priests, primaris psykers, nor commissars to AM formations.

Every freaking week...

The Priest thing has nothing to do with slots. It's a blanket permission to add to any Detachment. Detachments are formations. Ergo, you can add Priest to any AM Formation. RaW isn't in question in this case. RaI is.

TL: DR; - This comes up every week and there is never a consensus. Certain people keep bringing up red herring arguments involving FOC slots, which aren't relevant in this case.

Sorry if this has been discussed. I did a search, but new to the site and couldn't find the answer :-(


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maybe someone can direct me to the most recent discussion thread and this one can be closed/locked as needed

Won't matter much even if you do find it, cuz the reason it keeps getting locked is because people go in circles all over the place. The argument never goes anywhere and the threads just devolves into namecalling and unkind words very fast.

I think the last time this happened was with Servitors in a SM dex? Or Wyrdvane Psykers.

In all fairness, each situation is different. Some of the units say they can be taken and don't take up an HQ choice, or something similar... heavily implying that they can only be taken in a Detachment using a Force Org chart.

The Priest situation has no such wording. We're simply told that we can add 0-3 to any AM Detachment. Is an AM Formation an AM Detachment? Yes. Short of any RaW to the contrary... which noone has ever really been able to supply, you can add 0-3 Priests to any AM Formation.

The most common argument is that Formation list the specific units needed and that the Priests aren't listed. This is easily shot down as the Priest rule is a much more advanced, codex specific rule that the general rules for what goes into a Formation.

Other freebie units may or may not be able to join Formations, dependent upon how the rules are worded.

 Kriswall wrote:

The most common argument is that Formation list the specific units needed and that the Priests aren't listed. This is easily shot down as the Priest rule is a much more advanced, codex specific rule that the general rules for what goes into a Formation.

You could counter with the fact the most formations have no restrictions. I would guess that the ability to include units like preists would need to be included as a restriction to override the codex and rulebook

TauFireWarrior wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:

The most common argument is that Formation list the specific units needed and that the Priests aren't listed. This is easily shot down as the Priest rule is a much more advanced, codex specific rule that the general rules for what goes into a Formation.

You could counter with the fact the most formations have no restrictions. I would guess that the ability to include units like preists would need to be included as a restriction to override the codex and rulebook

How would that be a restriction? A restriction is either something you can't do or a specific thing you must do. If a Formation has no restrictions, then presumably it has no opinion on the specific Codex permission to add Priests to any Detachment (including any Formation).

Kriswall: it is not a codex-specific rule, the rule is in the brb. I quoted from it.

And yes, the rule does have to do with slots; try reading the next sentence.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Kriswall: it is not a codex-specific rule, the rule is in the brb. I quoted from it.

And yes, the rule does have to do with slots; try reading the next sentence.

I disagree for a variety of reasons that have been well documented by now. The rules clearly give permission for Priests to be taken in AM Detachments. There is no clear restriction preventing them from being taken in an AM Formation. At best, there is a vague and ambiguous implied assumption that they can only be taken in Detachments that have Force Organization Charts. Vague and ambiguous implied assumptions don't really count as clear restrictions.