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I'm getting very interested in the possibility of a Night Lord army so I started to read some fluff about those guys. I don't know why but I like their ruthless and criminal habits.
Pardon by advance my lack of knowledge about them, for example I have never read the NL novels.

For the moment, what struck me the most is their tendency to get beaten to death (almost) every time they face the enemy in battle more conventional than what they usually do. I mean, they have suffered terrible defeat during the Horus Heresy at the hands of the DA SM legion, or during the Kai'Zai Uprising when they had to face an Imperial Fists strike force; even during the 13th they seem to have been crushed anytime Imperial Forces who came across them. They seem to fail as soon as the face serious military opposition... Hit and Run tactics ... Okay, but it is no synonymous with poor combat abilities am I right?

Their HH rules are not to contradict my feeling: they have to pass a moral check if they warlord dies and they always flee +1''. I know it is fluffy but still, does it means that they can't beat anybody who's resisting at least slightly to their onslaught?

I have many questions popping in my head though :
- do we have already seen NL beating their enemies thanks to sheer bravery and determination?
- Can they battle bitterly or just flee as soon as one fights back?
- have they others noteworthy battle honours than killing random civilians on remote Imperial worlds?

And so on and so on...

I think you will have a hard time selling the Night Lords, the "Make the Enemy Gak Themselves Into Surrender By Murdering the Gak Out of Everyone In Power" Legion as cowards.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
I think you will have a hard time selling the Night Lords, the "Make the Enemy Gak Themselves Into Surrender By Murdering the Gak Out of Everyone In Power" Legion as cowards.

Not really, they're cowards by their own admission. Sevatar frequently mentions their cowardice throughout Prince of Crows, contrasting their indirect methods with those of the Dark Angels. They're a legion of under-handed rapists and murderers who mostly act out of self-interest and self-preservation (Curze also brings this up when explaining why he hates his own legion).

Not that they don't have a few brave moments, such as when a significant portion of the fleet joins Sevatar in buying time for the rest to flee (Sevatar is rather proud of this, though he also mentions that they're not disciplined like the Iron Fists or brave like the Ultramarines). One of the captains (Ophion) is also singled out as being uncharacteristically brave and loyal for a Night Lord.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

Pardon by advance my lack of knowledge about them, for example I have never read the NL novels.

Check out Prince of Crows. It's an excellent read, and Sevatar is one of the most intriguing and entertaining characters in the Warhammer universe. And it's also quite short, so it's an easy read.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
- Can they battle bitterly or just flee as soon as one fights back?

They can, but they will do almost anything to avoid a fair fight, though they are forced to make a stand in Prince of Crows. Anyway, you will find the answers to most of your questions there. But mostly they just like preying on the weak and torturing people (part of their motivation for surviving after the DA ambush is to make new "skinning pits" - torture is an end in itself for them).

 RazgrizOne wrote:


I have many questions popping in my head though :
- do we have already seen NL beating their enemies thanks to sheer bravery and determination?
- Can they battle bitterly or just flee as soon as one fights back?
- have they others noteworthy battle honours than killing random civilians on remote Imperial worlds?

They are broken up into small, fragmented warbands. Each leader has his own agenda. They don't work well with each other.

So, they use hit and run tactics. Midnight raids. Stuff like that.

Also, they have no strong ties to the Emperor, to chaos, or anything. They won't throw away their lives needlessly. They just want the Imperium to burn.

If confronted with a full-on chapter of Space Marines, for example, they just fade into the night.

@EngulfedObject

Not really, they're cowards by their own admission. Sevatar frequently mentions their cowardice throughout Prince of Crows, contrasting their indirect methods with those of the Dark Angels. They're a legion of under-handed rapists and murderers who mostly act out of self-interest and self-preservation (Curze also brings this up when explaining why he hates his own legion).

That's interesting, I'd like to know more about their motivations though. No military tactics, operations and strategies are never used without a greater purpose. I mean, if they are no longer a coherent force and chose to rampage the Imperium, what is their goal ? Besides just killing wantonly and torturing. Tbh, I don't really understand the whole "we hate the Emperor because he disliked our methods". I may be oversimplificating but you got the idea I guess.

@ kronk

They are broken up into small, fragmented warbands. Each leader has his own agenda. They don't work well with each other.

So, they use hit and run tactics. Midnight raids. Stuff like that.

Also, they have no strong ties to the Emperor, to chaos, or anything. They won't throw away their lives needlessly. They just want the Imperium to burn.

If confronted with a full-on chapter of Space Marines, for example, they just fade into the night.

Yes. So I admit they will never try to attack in force any serious target without great care or psychological preparation. Speaking about force, do the fluff states they still have heavy gear like Termies, Dreads and LR? Would they still have the power to wage a full-scale war ?

In the night lords trilogy by ADB, they were broken up into small warbands. The one in the books had a handful of terminator armor, no land raiders, 1 dreadnought. ALL of the Night Lords would scavenge from loyalist marines that they killed as they had no Forge World to pull from. The would take new bits of armor to replace their broken pieces.

If they could steal/salvage a Land Raider, I bet they would.

Great series, by the way. I can't recommend it enough if you're into the Night Lords.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
@EngulfedObject

Not really, they're cowards by their own admission. Sevatar frequently mentions their cowardice throughout Prince of Crows, contrasting their indirect methods with those of the Dark Angels. They're a legion of under-handed rapists and murderers who mostly act out of self-interest and self-preservation (Curze also brings this up when explaining why he hates his own legion).

That's interesting, I'd like to know more about their motivations though. No military tactics, operations and strategies are never used without a greater purpose. I mean, if they are no longer a coherent force and chose to rampage the Imperium, what is their goal ? Besides just killing wantonly and torturing. Tbh, I don't really understand the whole "we hate the Emperor because he disliked our methods". I may be oversimplificating but you got the idea I guess.

Hmm, it's strongly implied that they were flawed from the beginning, going all the way back to Curze and his gene-seed. Spoilers from Prince of Crows:

So yea, they don't really have a greater purpose - cause murder and mayhem is what they are made for. Well, the last part about the Emperor might be my own interpretation from what I read, but I think that's the gist of it.

Btw, Sevatar is also the first to say "Death to the False Emperor!" The Imperium being built on lies is a recurring theme in ADB's works, especially in The First Heretic (about the Word Bearers). I don't like his portrayal of the Dark Angels (my favourite legion, although he does have them thoroughly trounce the Night Lords) but his writing really is amazing. Best Warhammer author by far, in my opinion. And don't worry, even though the Night Lords lose, you'll still be reading about DA's getting slaughtered left and right by Sevatar in most combat scenes

 kronk wrote:
In the night lords trilogy by ADB, they were broken up into small warbands. The one in the books had a handful of terminator armor, no land raiders, 1 dreadnought. ALL of the Night Lords would scavenge from loyalist marines that they killed as they had no Forge World to pull from. The would take new bits of armor to replace their broken pieces.

If they could steal/salvage a Land Raider, I bet they would.

Great series, by the way. I can't recommend it enough if you're into the Night Lords.

They had a Land Raider, which they used in the first book to kill a Warhound Titan (after mining its ankles with Melta bombs, and using their Thunderhawk Transporter to strafe it). Of course, they lose some guys, and a Rhino also dating back from the Heresy, Their unit of Atramentar still had their ancient weapons, but they were bodyguard to the The Exalted, and generally looked after themselves first. Likewise 3rd Claw picks a fight with 1st Claw because the new leader of 3rd Claw is afraid of being stabbed in the back because he cheats in the leadership duel for 3rd Claw. Doesn't really work out well for anyone.

As Cyrion says, they tend to lose fair fights, which is why they usually don't pick them. There's also some amusing bits in Blood Reaver where they use Red Corsair Terminators as cover (while trash-talking them on their private vox-net), and where they just plain leg it when faced with resistance.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/NightLords

The short answer is yes, However, Does that ,matter?

The point of war, especially a war like the ones depicted in 40k is to win and survive. The NL are masters of Total War and they use every tactic to make sure they win the fights they engage in. Fighting to win isn't inherently cowardly, and it certainly doesn't make them bad. so my question in return is, does it matter if they are cowards? They are effective in their role, so do they need to be brave or honorable or any of those naively positive attributes in a setting where there is no mercy or quarter given or asked?

In the end, the Night Lords are not warriors. They are little more than psycopathic criminals wearing power armour. They are not fighters, they are murderers. So of course they are not going to be much use in an actual fight.
If the Night Lords do fight, they have to do so through underhanded methods and hit-and-run tactics because they lack the warrior skills necessary to take on an equal opponent. That is not cowardice, it is pragmatism. If the Night Lords would fight bravely and honourably, they would get slaughtered, as happens the few times they try that.

And they said the current CSM codex that makes it difficult to win against enemy armies with equal point values wasn't fit for Night Lords .

@Engulfedobject :

Thanks for the insight, it makes me really comprehend the NL better. I see even company captain seem to be afraid of being backstabbed by their counterparts or even their own men; does it mean NL are only operating at a company scale? Do the novels show bigger NL forces in operations or focus on a special unity? If yes which size is it?

@GKTiberius :
I would not have imagined a better response to my initial question. I now know that I (also) love NL because they are lightyears away from the current state of the setting. Nice to know that, somewhere in the dark, terrible things are still walking while super brave mary sue UM chapter master single handedly crush a million orks in one battle.

@Iron_Captain

In the end, the Night Lords are not warriors. They are little more than psycopathic criminals wearing power armour. They are not fighters, they are murderers. So of course they are not going to be much use in an actual fight.

I like that.

They are still Space Marines, so against - say - humans, they're going too wreck face.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
@Engulfedobject :

Thanks for the insight, it makes me really comprehend the NL better. I see even company captain seem to be afraid of being backstabbed by their counterparts or even their own men; does it mean NL are only operating at a company scale? Do the novels show bigger NL forces in operations or focus on a special unity? If yes which size is it?

In 30k, what we see is mostly a company captain level of organization, though still operating as a unified legion. During and before the Thramas Crusade, they are led by Curze and the Kyroptera, which was a council made up of some of the company captains (Curze had a mostly hands-off approach when commanding his legion so I'd assume the Kyroptera did most of that). At the end of the Crusade, the last command the legion receives is to split into six, each part under the leadership of a captain and to do as they like. So after that, they were never a unified legion again.

Post-30k, they operate mostly on a Warband level (no fixed size). I haven't read the Night Lords series yet, but I'd imagine most info would come from there.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
@Iron_Captain

In the end, the Night Lords are not warriors. They are little more than psycopathic criminals wearing power armour. They are not fighters, they are murderers. So of course they are not going to be much use in an actual fight.

I like that.

Yep, that is indeed who they are and the path they decide to fully embrace during the Horus Heresy.

Night Lords are exactly like those armed militia/army of Central Africa and Congo who attack defenceless villages and town to rape women and kidnap children to train them to become the next generation of soldier/militia that will do the exact same thing. They have poor discipline, poor combat skills outside of their personnal combat abilities and very little motivation to fight. Being pirates and pillagers, they are expert at raids, quick assault, terror tactics and infiltration, but faced with a stern defence, they tend to abandon. Some of their leaders managed unite and motivate their warband to do something greater, but those are the exception. The Night Lords are to regular Space Marines what Hellion gangs are to eldar and drak eldar.

Night Lords are closer to dark eldar than any other sm legion. Nothing to protect other than their own lives. Of course they tend to leg it when there's real danger of losing one.

I'd not call it cowardice. Cowardice is when you prefer to avoid danger when your envolvment is needed for greater cause. In other words, when you put your own well being above something you're supposed to be fighting for. Night lords have no such thing. And in this case it's called self awareness. You're not jumping out of the window because you're a coward, right?

Whether or not the Night Lords are cowards comes down to perspective, though they are certainly not brave as a whole. But if you're looking for a more badass description of their tactics and why they tend to lose fair fights, then you can't go wrong with this quote:

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

(^Not sure if it's in an actual book, but the quote comes directly from ADB).

Ok, I understand, it is very helpful. I may take a look at the NL books. Is there any HH novels worth a read focusing on them?

 EngulfedObject wrote:
Whether or not the Night Lords are cowards comes down to perspective, though they are certainly not brave as a whole. But if you're looking for a more badass description of their tactics and why they tend to lose fair fights, then you can't go wrong with this quote:

"Because the Wolves kill cleanly, and we do not. They also kill quickly, and we have never done that, either. They fight, they win, and they stalk back to their ships with their tails held high. If they were ever ordered to destroy another Legion, they would do it by hurling warrior against warrior, seeking to grind their enemies down with the admirable delusions of the 'noble savage'. If we were ever ordered to assault another Legion, we would virus bomb their recruitment worlds; slaughter their serfs and slaves; poison their gene-seed repositories and spend the next dozen decades watching them die slow, humiliating deaths. Night after night, raid after raid, we'd overwhelm stragglers from their fleets and bleach their skulls to hang from our armour, until none remained. But that isn't the quick execution the Emperor needs, is it?

The Wolves go for the throat. We go for the eyes. Then the tongue. Then the hands. Then the feet. Then we skin the crippled remains, and offer it up as an example to any still bearing witness. The wolves were warriors before they became soldiers. We were murderers first, last, and always."

-- First Captain Sevatar, when asked why the Night Lords aren't the Emperor's sanction force against other Legions.

(^Not sure if it's in an actual book, but the quote comes directly from ADB).

Some of the night Lords philosophy is incredibly well written

I think of them more as super villians than marines, they are out for their own ends.

 RazgrizOne wrote:
Ok, I understand, it is very helpful. I may take a look at the NL books. Is there any HH novels worth a read focusing on them?

As far as I know, there's only the novella Prince of Crows and the short story Savage Weapons from Age of Darkness. Savage Weapons takes place shortly before Prince of Crows and sets the stage for the Thramas Crusade but it's not necessary to read it first to understand what's going on (a short look at the wiki summary will do).

They're both by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, who also wrote the Night Lords series, which takes place after the HH.

That, or check out The Horus Heresy Book Two - Massacre, which has A LOT of info on every legion it covers, including the Night Lords. Goes over legion history, structure, heraldry, recruitment, famous battles, tactics, etcs. Everything you can think of. Cool pics too, check it out.

 Spyro_Killer wrote:
Some of the night Lords philosophy is incredibly well written

Yea, ADB writes really well, have to give him that. His work with the Word Bearers is just as good.

In the Space Marines compendium Night Lords make an appearance. Shows the split between the 'Long War' and 'Eternal War' factions, as well as between those Night Lords who manage to keep control of their bodies, only manifesting 'refined mutations' and those who outright embrace mutation.

@EngulfedObject

I'll see if I can grab them. I already have Massacre, which is indeed awesome. Thanks for the insight !

I'm going to seek for old fluff about NL, perhaps there are old WD or CSM codexes where we can have more input on their situation in the 41st millenia?

I'm guess NL great companies are now either fleet-based or those who have embraced chaos have a remote world somewhere in the EoT. In any cases, I feel like they are slowly dying and are only the shadow of what they were. How can they even replace fallen marines (if they can?).

The story I mentioned has one Night Lord faction replacing marines.

The story I mentioned has one Night Lord faction replacing marines.

How then? I read in Massacre they seldom raided the youth of whole systems before throwing them in their marine-making process.

The standard space marine way; submit psychotic young children to horrific ordeal, abduct surviving favourites.

The standard space marine way; submit psychotic young children to horrific ordeal, abduct surviving favourites.

Yeah, I kind of reckoned that...
Now that they have no homeworld (except for those based in the EoT) do they still replace their guys and if yes how? Is there any fluff describing how NL warbands manage to replace their losses in the 41st millenia, if they can?
I have read mostly stuff from the HH from now and the 40k things I found never deal with this aspect.
Anyone has a clue or the whole topic is let to players' imagination?

I think the Night Lord story from the space marines compendium I mentioned is set M41, certainly far post heresy, so that suggests at least this particular warband replaces it's losses.

 RazgrizOne wrote:

The standard space marine way; submit psychotic young children to horrific ordeal, abduct surviving favourites.

Yeah, I kind of reckoned that...
Now that they have no homeworld (except for those based in the EoT) do they still replace their guys and if yes how? Is there any fluff describing how NL warbands manage to replace their losses in the 41st millenia, if they can?
I have read mostly stuff from the HH from now and the 40k things I found never deal with this aspect.
Anyone has a clue or the whole topic is let to players' imagination?

there was a novel, sadly I forget which, that talked about woman/daemon creatures being used to birth new space marines basically in great big torture/birthing factories on hellworlds. vaguely think it was ultramarines book.

as an aside to that I have generally looked on it that the REAL surviving traitor legions are in fact the same guys that stood on terra and spat in the emperors eye, still alive and kicking just now insanely more powerful and experienced because of time in the warp etc etc. You then have the "new traitors" made up of recent loyalists that went heretic and newly created chaos marines by the likes of fabius bile and daemon womb birthing techniques.

Whenever they go on terror raids out of the EoT if they see particularly spunky kids they take em. Had an entire short story about it in one of the compendiums.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

TheWanderer wrote:

 RazgrizOne wrote:

The standard space marine way; submit psychotic young children to horrific ordeal, abduct surviving favourites.

Yeah, I kind of reckoned that...
Now that they have no homeworld (except for those based in the EoT) do they still replace their guys and if yes how? Is there any fluff describing how NL warbands manage to replace their losses in the 41st millenia, if they can?
I have read mostly stuff from the HH from now and the 40k things I found never deal with this aspect.
Anyone has a clue or the whole topic is let to players' imagination?

there was a novel, sadly I forget which, that talked about woman/daemon creatures being used to birth new space marines basically in great big torture/birthing factories on hellworlds. vaguely think it was ultramarines book.

as an aside to that I have generally looked on it that the REAL surviving traitor legions are in fact the same guys that stood on terra and spat in the emperors eye, still alive and kicking just now insanely more powerful and experienced because of time in the warp etc etc. You then have the "new traitors" made up of recent loyalists that went heretic and newly created chaos marines by the likes of fabius bile and daemon womb birthing techniques.

That was the Iron Warriors and I beleive it was exclusive to them, hence why Uriel was sent to destroy it.