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Are we sure it isn't a typo? Even GW isn't dumb enough to make a Formation cost that much at minimum...

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Are we sure it isn't a typo? Even GW isn't dumb enough to make a Formation cost that much at minimum...

We are the Imperial Guard.
We used to do Gunlines then GW gave them to Tau.
We used to do tanks then GW gave buffs to SM tanks and made them better.
Our Elites choice vie for worst unit in the Codex.
Our good stuff was either removed or nerfed.
Our crutch became invalid with the introduction of HP's.

After all that and more it only makes sense that our formations be subpar when compared to other factions.

Want to test Emp's shield against my mutilator list in vassal?

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Are we sure it isn't a typo? Even GW isn't dumb enough to make a Formation cost that much at minimum...

The "Formation" of the Emperor's Shield Infantry Company consists of 3 Emperor's Shield Infantry Platoons; which mandate you take at least 1 Sentinel and you have to have a MINIMUM of 5 Infantry Squads in each Platoon.

Couple that alongside the mandatory Platoon Command Squads and mandatory Company Command Squads each ESIP requires and the single Company Command Squad that you have to take in order to field the Cadian Detachment and yes, it is 1065 points.

The ESIC is basically what they made beneficial for Space Marine players to aim for in the form of 2x Battle Demi-Companies--but without the option for smaller squad sizes.

Btw, i've had succsess with full infantry guard but mostly due to obsec and conscripts.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Are we sure it isn't a typo? Even GW isn't dumb enough to make a Formation cost that much at minimum...

The ESIP alone would have been a fine Core Formation, comparable to the Leman Russ company. Similarly, if the Assault Platoon of Mech CCS + 3x MechVets + 3x Hellhound + Enginseer.were Core, that would be totally reasonable as well.

But requiring 3x ESIPs iand CCS is insane for how restricted and limited they are, and how crappy the bonuses are. SMs get free transports. IG get nothing. If *ALL* weapon upgrades within the ESIC were free, and you could still take Transports, it might be viable. Then you could come out loaded for bear and not be any further taxed beyond the basic units.

There is no way somebody is going to want to buy and field 180 Guardsmen to field that formation competitively.

The Biggest problem in this formation is the order of punishing Fusillade.

I don't know why they felt it necessary to tag on the final sentence of " if the test is passed, all ordered units must shoot at the same target"

WHY!?

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
The Biggest problem in this formation is the order of punishing Fusillade.

I don't know why they felt it necessary to tag on the final sentence of " if the test is passed, all ordered units must shoot at the same target"

WHY!?

What does "First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire" do?

You make a Shooting Attack when the Order is resolved.

Yes but the point is why would you want to send 400+ las gun shots at a single unit.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
Yes but the point is why would you want to send 400+ las gun shots at a single unit.

Have you even actually read the rule for "Punishing Fusillade" in its entirety?

Punishing Fusillade: The Company Commander can choose to issue the 'First Rank, Fire! Second Rank, Fire!' order to any number of units from the Infantry Company at the same time. This counts as issuing a single order. If he does so, make a single Leadership test, using the highest Leadership among the ordered units. If the test is passed, all ordered units must shoot at the same target.

You can choose however many Infantry Squads from the ESIC for that FRSRF. You don't need to do "400+ Lasgun shots at a single unit". You can split them up between the 15 Infantry Squads you have.

The only caveat is the standard caveat; units that have received Orders cannot receive them again.

Ah! I see thank you for clarifying!

So why doesn't this formation give objective secured? I thought if you take a battle group command and thus formation you had a bound list..... Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?

Bound list =/= Objective Secured.

The Detachment/Formation has to say the models in it get Objective Secured.

UrsoerTheSquid wrote:
The Biggest problem in this formation is the order of punishing Fusillade.

I don't know why they felt it necessary to tag on the final sentence of " if the test is passed, all ordered units must shoot at the same target"

WHY!?

Because in Imperial Cadia fusillade punishes YOU!

I'm confused. 200+ infantry, no matter how weak, will put up a pretty strong fight unless the enemy has a crap tonne of templates. There's also 9 autocannons in his list, which are at least enough to kill some transports. And just because "all units ordered must fire at the same target" doesn't make it suck. Look at it this way. Your CCS has 3 orders to give as part of the Battle group. So you can order 5 squads to FRSR into one squad, 5 into another, etc. so I don't see the problem.

A 30 man blob of guard can withstand a lot in cover, 200+ models?! Why would they even have to care about tanks with that many dudes anyway? Haha

Cause they auto-loose to a bunch of obsec rhinos they can't reliably throw off objectives? Or an IMP knight that will eventually stomp out comissar and sweep the dudes. I think it's a good idea to spend some points on melta bombs.
When they face barrage, focused fire or any means of loosing 1 wound comissars, they start running away waithing for an order to regroup. And only CCS can give that order. They're not eternal either.

This list has an advantage of redundancy. But it's ott redundancy of stuff that can't deal with a lot of common things. And can't outscore a rhino. Even drop pods in the middle of the board getting on objectives will cause this dudes to focus EVERYTHING on them just not to loose on VP. And how much will it take to kill an av12 thing with this list? 1 full squad? 2 full squads? Plus tankhunter orders? it's gona take you 500+ points to kill a 35 pt transport to not loose on points. And than you loose on points cause you don't have enough to kill what's coming at you.

I might be wrong but that's pretty much how it seems to work now. You need to either be able to deal with everything or outscore everything. This list sure needs further playtesting against other different stuff. If you're not against vassal, i can lend a helping hand.

Loon wrote:So why doesn't this formation give objective secured? I thought if you take a battle group command and thus formation you had a bound list..... Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?

Im not sure myself. For some reason GW seems to have forgotten to put that in here despite the fact that the entire list is pretty much a bound army.

Tiberius501 wrote:I'm confused. 200+ infantry, no matter how weak, will put up a pretty strong fight unless the enemy has a crap tonne of templates. There's also 9 autocannons in his list, which are at least enough to kill some transports. And just because "all units ordered must fire at the same target" doesn't make it suck. Look at it this way. Your CCS has 3 orders to give as part of the Battle group. So you can order 5 squads to FRSR into one squad, 5 into another, etc. so I don't see the problem.

A 30 man blob of guard can withstand a lot in cover, 200+ models?! Why would they even have to care about tanks with that many dudes anyway? Haha

200+ Infantry? Its 180 base and I doubt that you would want to add any more onto that afterwards.
The problem is that a lot of armies these days to Infantry removal quite easily, and Light Infantry such as your average Guardsmen present no problem. Want to remove them? Basic weapons amassed fired into the ranks, flamers, scat bikes, bolters, pulse weapons, Vindicator Line Breaker, flyers, etc..... The list goes on. And there is not much that this formation can do back - those 9 Autocannons are all very well and good until you realise that only 4.5 shots on average are hitting. Even those five orders are not doing much to help, hell, they are doing almost nothing.
And to cap it all off there are few places that play with enough cover to allow you to get 180+ infantry in cover at once. And even if they can Ignores Cover is stupidly common these days.

So, I think that I will stay with my tanks. At least they dont force me to take 180+ useless models.

Scat bike removes
2/3 * 5/6 * 2/3 = 20/54 per shot, so 80/54. So about 1.6 per bike per round. That's...what 32 guardsmen a round or so for 20? 20 bikes is pretty typical in most competitive Eldar lists.

They can probably fire for 3 turns before taking return fire if the enemy runs. That'll be about 100 guardsmen dead, not including anything with multiple wounds hidden in the squad. And that's a small part of the Eldar army, costing a lot less than this formation.

It's good but it's not great. For ig it's a solid formation since they are a pretty weak army overall, but it's no decurion.

Loon wrote:
So why doesn't this formation give objective secured? I thought if you take a battle group command and thus formation you had a bound list..... Or am I missing something glaringly obvious?

Detachments need to specifically state that they grant Objective Secured in order to do so--or Formations that are part of the Detachment need to grant it. It being "bound" does not mean anything. Combined Arms Detachments specifically grant Objective Secured as an incentive to take a CAD rather than Formations.

For example, in the Raven Guard "Talon Strike Force" Detachment? You do not have Objective Secured unless you take a Battle Demi-Company.

“CHOOSING ANARMY
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules”

From: Cadia codex


So this confuses me... Because it says if you go battle forged you get additional benefits......

Loon wrote:
“CHOOSING ANARMY
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules”

From: Cadia codex


So this confuses me... Because it says if you go battle forged you get additional benefits......

Yes, those benefits are Command Benefits listed in each individual formation and detachment's rules.

Note that Objective Secured appears on the special rules for the CAD and Battle Demi-company, but not others. If it's not explicitly listed, the formation or detachment does not have it, even if it's bound.

This is some 40k lawyer bs..... I have to pay $50 for the codexes $800 for an army and $1200 for a lawyer to read me the rules.... Damn.... This hobby is getting expensive.... Is any one looking to buy a wife and kids I'll throw in the house too... I m looking to start a new army.....

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Loon wrote:
“CHOOSING ANARMY
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules”

From: Cadia codex


So this confuses me... Because it says if you go battle forged you get additional benefits......

Yes, those benefits are Command Benefits listed in each individual formation and detachment's rules.

Note that Objective Secured appears on the special rules for the CAD and Battle Demi-company, but not others. If it's not explicitly listed, the formation or detachment does not have it, even if it's bound.

So in other words the Marinecurion just got even better whilst the Guardcurion got even worse. G fething G Games Workshop

I have a few questions for you OP:

1) Do you have troubles deploying the units? Can everything fit in your side turn 1?
2) Do you clump your guys together when you deploy?
3) Do you blob in 50 man squads?
4) Do you use movement trays?

 master of ordinance wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Loon wrote:
“CHOOSING ANARMY
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules”

From: Cadia codex


So this confuses me... Because it says if you go battle forged you get additional benefits......

Yes, those benefits are Command Benefits listed in each individual formation and detachment's rules.

Note that Objective Secured appears on the special rules for the CAD and Battle Demi-company, but not others. If it's not explicitly listed, the formation or detachment does not have it, even if it's bound.

So in other words the Marinecurion just got even better whilst the Guardcurion got even worse. G fething G Games Workshop

No? It just means the Marine one was always better and the Guard one was always worse.

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

 MechaEmperor7000 wrote:

Loon wrote:
“CHOOSING ANARMY
When choosing an army to play a game of Warhammer 40,000, there are two main ways of organising your collection. These are the Unbound method, which means taking whichever units you like, and the Battle-forged method, which is more rigid but has extra benefits. Both are described fully in Warhammer 40,000: The Rules”

From: Cadia codex


So this confuses me... Because it says if you go battle forged you get additional benefits......

Yes, those benefits are Command Benefits listed in each individual formation and detachment's rules.

Note that Objective Secured appears on the special rules for the CAD and Battle Demi-company, but not others. If it's not explicitly listed, the formation or detachment does not have it, even if it's bound.

So in other words the Marinecurion just got even better whilst the Guardcurion got even worse. G fething G Games Workshop

No? It just means the Marine one was always better and the Guard one was always worse.

Of course, silly me.
Well, I cant wait for the next IG codex. I am pretty sure that we will see a major price hike on all models whilst all our crutch units receive a hefty nerf just to make things a bit more 'balanced' for screaming Timmy and his Spehss Marins

 master of ordinance wrote:

Well, I cant wait for the next IG codex. I am pretty sure that we will see a major price hike on all models whilst all our crutch units receive a hefty nerf just to make things a bit more 'balanced' for screaming Timmy and his Spehss Marins

New codex comes out:
Hold the line: All non-abhuman infantry models have objective secured.
Codex fixed in one line.

 Cadichan Support wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:

Well, I cant wait for the next IG codex. I am pretty sure that we will see a major price hike on all models whilst all our crutch units receive a hefty nerf just to make things a bit more 'balanced' for screaming Timmy and his Spehss Marins

New codex comes out:
Hold the line: All non-abhuman infantry models have objective secured.
Codex fixed in one line.

Then the next month after the the XV1004 Ultratide is released with another 5 Tau models. Normal Riptides get a price drop and can be taken in squads of 9.