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Two questions, looking for more opinions from my peers.


"In each of your hero phases, each model from the Tallyband of Nurgle that is within 21" of their Great Unclean One heals d3 wounds. You can instead return d3 slain models to each unit of Plaguebearers if they are within 21" of their Great Unclean One in your Hero Phase."


1. Do you heal both multi-wound models AND plagebearers, or do you choose one unit type or the other. I read it as a choice.

2. Does the Great Unclean One heal himself? It doesn't say all friendly units or anything, but specifies units a distance from the GUCO.



Thanks,

TF

1 - While a RAW argument could be made that it is one or the other, RAI it's clearly adding the plaguebearer option because they are single wound models that would otherwise receive no benefit. Thus I think it would take TFG to argue that it isn't both. Nurglings are the only models that wouldn't get any benefit from the battalion (because they heal themselves).

2 - Yes, the GUO is a model from the battalion that is within 21" of himself, so he will heal d3. This is on top of the d3 he heals himself, and he could potentially get another d3 from his spell, meaning a GUO with 1 wound left could possibly be healed back to his starting total in one hero phase!

I kinda take offense to calling it a TFG statement.

I think it's a tactical option intended to support either strategic list building or picking a best case scenario for that casting. I learn towards it being a choice, myself.

 Thunderfrog wrote:
"In each of your hero phases, each model from the Tallyband of Nurgle that is within 21" of their Great Unclean One heals d3 wounds. You can instead return d3 slain models to each unit of Plaguebearers if they are within 21" of their Great Unclean One in your Hero Phase."

1. Do you heal both multi-wound models AND plagebearers, or do you choose one unit type or the other. I read it as a choice.

2. Does the Great Unclean One heal himself? It doesn't say all friendly units or anything, but specifies units a distance from the GUCO.

My take:

1. The RAW certainly appears to say that you either heal all non-Plaguebearers or replenish Plaguebearer units, not both. I feel like that second line was not necessarily intended to replace the first - "In the case of Plaguebearer units, instead return d3 models ..." would have been much clearer semantically - but the RAW seems clear.

2. Is the GUO within X" of itself? Have ya'll found a precedent or ruling to support whether a model is within X" of itself? This has personally come up several times for me using the Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage, whose command ability allows dudes to reroll charge rolls within X" of him. One opponent let me reroll the BTOIR's own charge roll, but others have told me that in AOS a model is not within X" of itself, hence other command abilities that specifically include the ability user as well. Then last night I was watching a Tabletop Minis match, where the BTOIR uses its ability solely to reroll its own charge roll, with no hint of there being an issue.

So anyway, I'd say #2 revolves entirely around how we're supposed to handle that.

- Salvage

Thanks Boss.

Not sure about number 2 either.

I've sent an email to GW. Who knows?

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I kinda take offense to calling it a TFG statement.

I think it's a tactical option intended to support either strategic list building or picking a best case scenario for that casting. I learn towards it being a choice, myself.

Then you're overthinking it. I think GW has made it plainly clear that 'strategic list building' isn't much of a focus with AoS.

Really?

With the advent of keywords and heroes that specifically affect them, it seems to me GW has made strategic force composition more important, rather than less.

On point 1 I agree that you heal non-Plaguebearer units and replenish Plaguebearer units.

On point 2 my take is that a model can't be within x" of himself and recieve any benefits from an ability unless it specifies so in the ability description.

Abilties like Mystic Shield,Oracular Visions,Gorelord,Blood Stampede specify that the model using the ability can be tragetd by it or recieve the benefits from it.

To play it otherwise would have consequences to other abilities such as the Skullgrinder's Favoured by Khorne ability which would always give him +1 Bravery.

DiscoKing wrote:
On point 2 my take is that a model can't be within x" of himself and recieve any benefits from an ability unless it specifies so in the ability description

The problem with that is that you're taking what may simply be a reminder from the author(s) as evidence of a rule that doesn't exist in written form.

 Ghaz wrote:
The problem with that is that you're taking what may simply be a reminder from the author(s) as evidence of a rule that doesn't exist in written form.

On the flipside, it's precisely instances like those that make me question whether abilities that don't specify do in fact include the user. Else why specify? I've not found too much redundancy in the language of the warscrolls ... Or put an entirely different way, with so few rules to go by, I believe we need to abide* by the little language we're given.

(*Which given GW's track record and the dreaded Semantics Phase of too many editions of too many games, I'll acknowledge that clinging too hard to GeeDub's language is a fool's errand at times )

- Salvage

Its either redundancy or pointing to a non-existent rule that says a model is never considered to be within x inches of himself unless specifically noted. Its up to each individual to decide which is more likely.

 Ghaz wrote:
Its either redundancy or pointing to a non-existent rule that says a model is never considered to be within x inches of himself unless specifically noted.

What if a rule either way was originally included but was removed to meet the two page rules limit? Or what if some warscrolls were written by writers operating under a rules draft that answered the question of if a model is within X" of itself (WM/H, WHFB, Malifaux and KOW all address self-targeting), while other writers were not given the same draft to go off of?

What if TF actually gets an answer to his question? What if we actually decide that that answer is binding in any way?

- Salvage

 Boss Salvage wrote:
What if a rule either way was originally included but was removed to meet the two page rules limit? Or what if some warscrolls were written by writers operating under a rules draft that answered the question of if a model is within X" of itself (WM/H, WHFB, Malifaux and KOW all address self-targeting), while other writers were not given the same draft to go off of?

Its not a rule if its not in the rules, regardless of why its not there. Right now, all we have are claims that if something says X, then rule Y no longer applies to them but there's no rule Y to be found. Thus rule Y is nothing more than house rules if you and your group wishes to use it.

If it didn't specify "their great unclean one" , I wouldn't even be curious.

So units with multi wounds within 21 inches of their GUO? Check. Plaguebearers? Check.

Is there a 'Their GUO" for the formation GUO?

My take:

1) First part is self explanatory, models with more then 1 wound heal d3 wounds when within the 21" range. If you have a unit of Plaugebarers with in 21" you can add d3 models back into the unit. This would be in addition to the d3 wound heal as the ability doesn't say its a choice. There is nothing saying heal d3 wounds or instead return d3 models, so you can do both. This is mostly because plaguebaers are 1 wound models.

2) No. The ability does not list the GUO as a target of the ability and is not effected by it.

Bombom,

So you take the "instead" to mean "also"?

A number of "within" abilities also specify "this model AND models within X", so my take is that without that caveat, they don't affect the model generating the effect.

Kinda feel the same.

I'm starting to waffle a bit on subject 1. I can see it either way at this point, where before I was staunchly "either/or"

 Thunderfrog wrote:
I kinda take offense to calling it a TFG statement.

Re-reading what I wrote it definitely comes off the wrong way, I apologize. What I meant was more "if you are using this battalion to give both bonuses it would take a TFG to seriously try and stop you from doing so". Naturally that is IMO; I see no precedent for GW having a 'either or' rule that doesn't say "pick X units" and because, quite frankly, it makes sense to have the bonus affect plaguebearers that way.

As for the discussion on within X", I basically see it as drawing a X" circle around the model in question. Since that model is within that circle it is included. Or in other words, saying "within X inches" is a shorter way of saying "is X inches or less away" since the model is 0" away from itself, and 0 is less than X, that model is included.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:

As for the discussion on within X", I basically see it as drawing a X" circle around the model in question. Since that model is within that circle it is included. Or in other words, saying "within X inches" is a shorter way of saying "is X inches or less away" since the model is 0" away from itself, and 0 is less than X, that model is included.

AoS rules are very cut and dry explicit, if the ability doesn't say that it can target the model then it cannot, even if it says x inches away. Because the Formation ability does not explicitly say the GUO is a target of the ability then it cannot be effected by it. It brings balance to an already powerful formation ability, kill the GUO and then you can actually start effectively killing all the other units.

There's already another thread on this so I'm just going to leave it there.

Um... what does it target then? The discussion is not if it affects the GUO without targeting it, but rather if it is included in the targeting. If it were actually "cut and dry explicit" then there wouldn't be a discussion to be had; everyone would agree. The battalion reads "each model from the Tallyband of Nurgle" so unless you are arguing that the GUO is somehow not part of the battalion then it goes back to the interpretation of "within X inches" which is what I was discussing.

To break it down really simple for the Impossible Resilience effect:
-You can activate it each of you hero phases

-It can only effect units from the Tallyband of Nurgle. Any other units that are not from the Formation cannot be effected

-The distance must be within 21" of the GUO from the Formation

-Each individual model within this range can heal d3 wounds if its a multi-wound model. Plaguebearers can add back in d3 models to the unit. Again, these units must be from the Formation.

-If you have 14 or more units at the start of your hero phase you can increase the effect to a d6 instead of d3.

At no point does it say the GUO can be targeted by Impossible Resilience, only other units from the formation within the range.

BomBomHotdog wrote:
only other units from the formation within the range

It doesn't say "other units" just those within 21" of the GUO. The point of discussion becomes if the GUO counts as being within 21" of itself.