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Yoyoyo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I'm more curious that somebody took an Obelisk AND a Monolith.

Living Tomb formation, so it's all about the auto-entry zero scatter T2 deepstrike

The Monolith only gets the non-scatter (and Monoliths are GARBAGE). Otherwise, the Obelisk is...okay. I feel like paying the extra 200+ for the Vault might be better though.
I knew about the formation, I just don't see what it did for the list. I mean, the Monolith can pull the Praetorians to a different location which is nice.

That said, Praetorians making a showing was nice. They're good; they just take more points in the Decurion to make one really want to run them.

War convocation can be powerful, the problem is its strictly mono build. Most of your points are chosen for you, and your lists end up being samey and predictable. Once someone has played against it 1 or 2 times its same ol same ol. Predictability can go a long way in making the game easier.

 Orock wrote:
War convocation can be powerful, the problem is its strictly mono build. Most of your points are chosen for you, and your lists end up being samey and predictable. Once someone has played against it 1 or 2 times its same ol same ol. Predictability can go a long way in making the game easier.

Scatterlasers and WKs would like a word with you just because a list is predictable as far as units go, doesn't make it weak.

I can't do much more than shake my head at the confirmation bias in this thread - Tau are OP, they needed to be nerfed\Tau didn't make T8 but they are still OP.

 Orock wrote:
War convocation can be powerful, the problem is its strictly mono build. Most of your points are chosen for you, and your lists end up being samey and predictable. Once someone has played against it 1 or 2 times its same ol same ol. Predictability can go a long way in making the game easier.

true, but playing with an extra 600pts over your opponent is often an insurmountable barrier for anything but another top tier gimmick

There are quite a few duds in war convo. Electro priests suck model AND rulewise.

I was surprised by the winning list. To be honest he made a lot of choices in his list that I don't agree with. For example his devs only took 1 grav cannon each. Like what? non of his tacs took combis. I just think the player of that list is obviously excellent and also got very lucky.

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Orock wrote:
War convocation can be powerful, the problem is its strictly mono build. Most of your points are chosen for you, and your lists end up being samey and predictable. Once someone has played against it 1 or 2 times its same ol same ol. Predictability can go a long way in making the game easier.

true, but playing with an extra 600pts over your opponent is often an insurmountable barrier for anything but another top tier gimmick

never built a list that got more than 460 free points. of which only 300 are actually good, and the others were "well why not" like digital weapons that never came into play. Its not like gladius where a free vehicle is always useful and fantastic.

Last time i faced such a list it had ~560 or so points worth of free stuff, but even if its "just" 300 that matter...thats 300 extra points! If I showed up to a game with a CAD ig list eoth two extra russ tanks, nobody woukd doubt that that would play a very strong role in shifting the expected outcome of victory. Thr mechanicum is getting those free points on great stuff too like assault 3 plasma guns...that also cannot "get hot" and benefit from both skitarii and mechanicum special rules and abilities.

Not saying there arent other powerful absurdiies as well, but theyre all exactly that, absurdities, abortions of game design that give outrageously powerful bonuses

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Jancoran wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
Izzy's tau actually went undefeated. Unfortunately it was 4w2d0L which made him unable to hit top 8. Either one of those draws being a win and he would've been in, knocking out Aleong's wolfravenstar.


Of course, this being the Internet, the goalposts would move anyway. If one made top 8, someone would be like "y you no make top 7!?" anyway.

I think the records are more important than the top 8 thing. What does the preponderance of the evidence tell us? It doesn't tell us that Tau did poorly. It certainly tells us ZILCH as to whether the ITC "decision" affected them.

More importantly, the lists themselves were run by actual Generals. We cannot attribute the top 8 to just the lists. Worthy lists were no doubt struck dead by superior strategy. The ultimate truth is that better generals end up in the finals a lot, despite their competitions best efforts and best lists. Lists don't win championships. We do.

I'd say this is only partially true, because you can't dodge the math forever.

You're not dodging the math. On the contrary. You're using it to your advantage.

I don't think you and I have the same concept of math, then. There's a reason BA maxed at 93rd place. Unless your contention is that NO good generals were playing BA.

Is your contention that they were?

the trouble in even going down that road is: i don't know, and you don't either. Most "good Generals" dont have the guts to play something unusual anyways. The best Generals don't suffer from a lack of confidence but it does mean they probably want no part of any chance at all at losing. So they will gravitate to the power units and if that isn't enough, they'll accept it.

So i anticipate that almost none of hte top Generals brought a Blood angels list. Not because they couldn't win. It's because they didn't want to find out. Since there's only ever one winner anyways, this is hardly a realistic way to view things, but its how they probably do. It's what drove my friend who is quite skilled to bring six Riptides and a Drone factory formation. yeah he's good, but he wanted super powerful toys to play with in the hopes they might, I don't know... compensate for a bad dice roll here or there? I don't know what his thinking was. I do know it availed him not at all. he took two losses and i think if he had been less fixated on shiny things, he was good enough that he could have been at that top table.

So my guess... is just a guess. 93rd wasn't exactly a position of shame either. But I suspect that whoever was playing the Blood Angels was probably not in the same conversations as the ones in the top 16. Could that be totally off base? abso-freaking lutely. He might have been THE best there, hampered only by his list or he might have been the worst there, but aided by his list. we just don't know.

Where are the standings by the way? anyone got a link?

Anywho, we really can't go down that road, either one of us. we just don't know.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Last time i faced such a list it had ~560 or so points worth of free stuff, but even if its "just" 300 that matter...thats 300 extra points! If I showed up to a game with a CAD ig list eoth two extra russ tanks, nobody woukd doubt that that would play a very strong role in shifting the expected outcome of victory. Thr mechanicum is getting those free points on great stuff too like assault 3 plasma guns...that also cannot "get hot" and benefit from both skitarii and mechanicum special rules and abilities.

Not saying there arent other powerful absurdiies as well, but theyre all exactly that, absurdities, abortions of game design that give outrageously powerful bonuses

I fought a Battle Company yesterday. I won. it was incredibly difficult to play against. You have to expend resources to kill ghosts, things that literally wouldn't exist in any other list. In the meantime he can fire the ghost and the guys inside until you do. So Grav Cannons. Yup. And why wouldn't he?

It was skillful use of terrain that was what saved me. i simply hit behind a rock and made his Drop pods come for me. His free Drop pods. they washed me with flame and did their damage as i was clumped. then i killed the lot of them and stayed behind the rock some more other than sacrificing a bike squad to go get some maelstrom points round 3 but I essentially surrendered an entire round of Maelstrom points round one just to survive long enough to compete later in the game. A necessary sacrifice.

In the end, i caught up. Tied on Primary..barely...tied on Maelstom...barely. Neither army had Line Breaker nor Warlord, so it ended up being a 1001 point victory (ITC way of scoring) for me due to First Blood. It was... easily the most heinous battle I have fought in a long time. The General is one who i respect anyways but a Battle Company in his hands? Deadly. Just deadly. But not unbeatable.

Some more fun statistics now that all lists and standings have been posted:

There were 22 Tau players total, meaning 7% of the field. There were 5 Tau players in the top 50, or 6 if you count the multiple top 50s players making it 6 out of 53, meaning the top 50 was either 10% or 11% Tau, based on which you choose.

There were 44 Marine players, with only 5 or 6 in the top 50/53, meaning they had 10% or 11% of the top 50. Despite having a showing twice as high as Tau, they had less than half as many placing players in the top 50. (Derp: CSM)

There were 42 Eldar players in the event, with 10 or 13 in the top 50, meaning they had 20-26% of the top 50. More than double the Tau representation, with slightly less players than double that of Tau. (Correction: Accidentally counted a DE as Eldar)

Other armies in the top 50 (using the 53 figures):

Necrons (5): 9.4%
Dark Angels (5 out of 11 players): 9.4%
Renegades (5 out of 7 players!): 9.4%
Cult Mech (3): 5.6%
Daemons (3): 5.6%
Tyranids (2): 3.7%
Grey Knights (1): 1.8%
CSM (1): 1.8%
Inquisition (1): 1.8%
SoBs (1): 1.8%
Dark Eldar (1): 1.8%
(Source: http://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/lvo2016 )

Basically Eldar are way ahead of everyone, then Tau and Space Marines are close, and finally everyone else.

Edit: Updated some errors due to search methods, the new figures show Tau is strictly better than Space Marines in terms of top 50 results.

The antidote to awesome free stuff in formations is for everyone to have awesome free stuff in formations. Once you go down this route, what actually is the point of points and army lists?

 Quickjager wrote:
There are quite a few duds in war convo. Electro priests suck model AND rulewise.

War Convocation doesn't require Electro-Priests.

War Convocation is the Formation consisting of an Oathsworn Knight Detachment(1-3 Oathsworn Knights of any type), Cult Mechanicus Battle Congregation(Detachment consisting of 1 HQ and 2 Troops minimum), and Skitarii Battle Maniple(1 of each unit in the Skitarii book; player's choice between Dragoons or Ironstriders) and free weapon/wargear upgrades in the Formation. The Cohort Mechanicus Formation is the big web-exclusive Formation that had everything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:
Last time i faced such a list it had ~560 or so points worth of free stuff, but even if its "just" 300 that matter...thats 300 extra points! If I showed up to a game with a CAD ig list eoth two extra russ tanks, nobody woukd doubt that that would play a very strong role in shifting the expected outcome of victory. Thr mechanicum is getting those free points on great stuff too like assault 3 plasma guns...that also cannot "get hot" and benefit from both skitarii and mechanicum special rules and abilities.

Not saying there arent other powerful absurdiies as well, but theyre all exactly that, absurdities, abortions of game design that give outrageously powerful bonuses

Not to be rude, but you do understand that the "Assault 3 Plasma Guns" are only available on 2 units in the entirety of what you take for the Skitarii, right?
Rangers and Vanguard are the two units which can take them. You get exactly one unit of Rangers and one unit of Vanguard in the War Convocation.

If you're arguing that a grand total of 6 18" S7 AP2 Assault 3 Plasma Guns on T3 platforms--even with the loss of "Gets Hot"--are skewing the War Convocation into such a great place, I would have to question that stance greatly.

The plasma guns was an example, that said, those 6 plasma weapons alone are 270pts worth of gear putting out up to 18 S7 ap2 shots a turn at very high BS ratings, typically also paired with cover save reducing wargear (that is also free courtesy of the formation) not counting their ability to ignore Gets Hot and benefit from Mechanicum rules. That is not an inconsequential firepower boost.

Tinkrr, honestly I think the numbers can point a number of ways... for instance, sure there are always a lot of marine players, but you also always have quite a few marine players who just play their army as-is (themed, rules be darned). That's true of many armies, of course, but I've encountered a lot of marine players who don't optimize. So, marines having more numbers overall but not more in the top 50 isn't surprising.

I would also say, based on your numbers, that the percentage of Tau in the top 50 is extremely close to Necrons, DA, and Renegades (!). So, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude this:

Basically Eldar are way ahead of everyone, then Tau and Space Marines are close, and finally everyone else.

Based on your data, if you wanted to draw a conclusion a fairer statement would have been to say it's Eldar, then Space Marines / Tau / Necrons / DA / Renegades () and finally everyone else.

But I think "percentage of the top 50" isn't necessarily a good metric, since as you point out it depends on how many people bring a certain army. Tau didn't have any lists in the top 10, although after that they show up at a 10% average just fine (2 in the top 20, 3 in the top 30, 4 in the top 40).

If you were to have chosen top 20 instead, you'd have these numbers:

Eldar - 6 out of 20 (30%)
Necrons - 3 out of 20 (15%)
Space marines - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Daemons - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Dark Angels - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Tau - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Cult Mechanicus - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Renegades - 1 out of 20 (5%)

That paints a much broader picture, and I honestly don't think you can look at the LVO results and think that Tau stood out beyond any of the armies listed above as being over the top. Not that you were - but, the idea that Tau are broken seemed to be bouncing around, resulting in preemptive nerfs as thoroughly discussed here... so when the actual voting comes, I hope people look at this and realize they're just not showing up as scary as people seemed to expect them to be, and so might not need to be preemptively adjusted like was done on a trial basis here.

The question then is, since they didnt place terribly, but rather, just solidly but not outstandingly, had the nerfs not been there would they have been over the top like Eldar?

Hard to know either way, but i dont see the changes to Tau as having been terribly harsh on their standings aside from dronespam simply overunning many opponents that just could never possibly deal with that (making skill rather meaningless).

 Vaktathi wrote:
The plasma guns was an example, that said, those 6 plasma weapons alone are 270pts worth of gear putting out up to 18 S7 ap2 shots a turn at very high BS ratings, typically also paired with cover save reducing wargear (that is also free courtesy of the formation) not counting their ability to ignore Gets Hot and benefit from Mechanicum rules. That is not an inconsequential firepower boost.

18 S7 AP2 shots a turn at high BS skill within 18 inches of a target.
The lack of "Gets Hot" is a mixed bag. Skitarii BS values are high enough that once you pop your best two Doctrina Imperatives(+2 and +3 BS) you're getting rerolls--and that's without factoring in "Benediction of Omniscience" from the Canticles in War Convocation, which many players will pop first(allows you to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls when making shooting attacks at 5+ units) before applying the Doctrina Imperatives for +2/+3 BS.
The lack of "Gets Hot" really only comes into play if you run Kataphron Destroyers with Plasma Culverin(Plasma Cannons that are Heavy 2, Blast with 24" range and are on a BS3 platform)--but the other option there is the Heavy Grav-Cannon.

The Omnispex is also a no-brainer upgrade that every Skitarii player takes, whether they are running a War Convocation or not, because the other option(Enhanced Data-Tether) is a joke. It's literally "-1 to a Cover Save" or "+1 LD when under the effects of Doctrina Imperatives"(not stackable with Broad Spectrum Data-Tethers; which come standard on Onagers, Dragoons, and Ironstriders and rather than applying to 1 unit instead get bubbled out).

 RiTides wrote:
Tinkrr, honestly I think the numbers can point a number of ways... for instance, sure there are always a lot of marine players, but you also always have quite a few marine players who just play their army as-is (themed, rules be darned). That's true of many armies, of course, but I've encountered a lot of marine players who don't optimize. So, marines having more numbers overall but not more in the top 50 isn't surprising.

I would also say, based on your numbers, that the percentage of Tau in the top 50 is extremely close to Necrons, DA, and Renegades (!). So, I think it's a bit of a stretch to conclude this:

Basically Eldar are way ahead of everyone, then Tau and Space Marines are close, and finally everyone else.

Based on your data, if you wanted to draw a conclusion a fairer statement would have been to say it's Eldar, then Space Marines / Tau / Necrons / DA / Renegades () and finally everyone else.

But I think "percentage of the top 50" isn't necessarily a good metric, since as you point out it depends on how many people bring a certain army. Tau didn't have any lists in the top 10, although after that they show up at a 10% average just fine (2 in the top 20, 3 in the top 30, 4 in the top 40).

If you were to have chosen top 20 instead, you'd have these numbers:

Eldar - 6 out of 20 (30%)
Necrons - 3 out of 20 (15%)
Space marines - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Daemons - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Dark Angels - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Tau - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Cult Mechanicus - 2 out of 20 (10%)
Renegades - 1 out of 20 (5%)

That paints a much broader picture, and I honestly don't think you can look at the LVO results and think that Tau stood out beyond any of the armies listed above as being over the top. Not that you were - but, the idea that Tau are broken seemed to be bouncing around, resulting in preemptive nerfs as thoroughly discussed here... so when the actual voting comes, I hope people look at this and realize they're just not showing up as scary as people seemed to expect them to be, and so might not need to be preemptively adjusted like was done on a trial basis here.

Considering this is the LVO, I doubt the number of themed lists exceeded anything more than negligible.

The issue you're presenting here is "are" or "were", because right now Tau aren't broken, but they're extremely competitive. If you want to phrase it as "were Tau broken?" then yes, they clearly were because of how immensely stronger CFP was, which was the major change. The only other big change was that to the Piranha Wing, but that can be argued a lot more, though in my opinion it was a change for the better.

More so, the other thing too look at these numbers, is that the same amount of Marines or Tau made the top 20 or top 50, and yet there are constant cries on here about Marine favourtism or whatnot, which clearly isn't the case when looking at the numbers. It's not so much favourtism, it's how much one army needs to be altered in comparison to the others, and yes you can argue some changes aren't necessary, such as the Holophoton one, or in my case I disagree with the ECPA change, but it shouldn't be reasonable to argue about the major changes like CFP or to a lesser extent Drone Factories, since Tau is already highly competitive without them, and could easily become broken with them. So yes, Tau are fine currently, and maybe then can get some of the small things back, but they surely don't need the big things.

Again, this is coming from someone who only intends to play Tau in the foreseeable future.

Edit: Oh, I forgot the Tau'nar change, but I'm sure we can all agree that was correct, even though there were (maybe are) plenty of people saying that was unfair.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The plasma guns was an example, that said, those 6 plasma weapons alone are 270pts worth of gear putting out up to 18 S7 ap2 shots a turn at very high BS ratings, typically also paired with cover save reducing wargear (that is also free courtesy of the formation) not counting their ability to ignore Gets Hot and benefit from Mechanicum rules. That is not an inconsequential firepower boost.

18 S7 AP2 shots a turn at high BS skill within 18 inches of a target.

yea, but thats often eminently possible from even turn 1. Thats 3 squads of IG plasma vets as 12" worth of fire (not counting doctrinas and whatnot), not an inconsiderable level of free firepower at all.

The lack of "Gets Hot" is a mixed bag. Skitarii BS values are high enough that once you pop your best two Doctrina Imperatives(+2 and +3 BS) you're getting rerolls--and that's without factoring in "Benediction of Omniscience" from the Canticles in War Convocation, which many players will pop first(allows you to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls when making shooting attacks at 5+ units) before applying the Doctrina Imperatives for +2/+3 BS.

right, but it basically eliminates any shred of risk that might slip through, on top of all the other special rules, and, as noted, for the K Destroyers

The Omnispex is also a no-brainer upgrade that every Skitarii player takes, whether they are running a War Convocation or not, because the other option(Enhanced Data-Tether) is a joke. It's literally "-1 to a Cover Save" or "+1 LD when under the effects of Doctrina Imperatives"(not stackable with Broad Spectrum Data-Tethers; which come standard on Onagers, Dragoons, and Ironstriders and rather than applying to 1 unit instead get bubbled out).

right, but they get the goodies for free. They add up and have a very real effect, the points costs ostensibly were there for a reason, getting them for free adds up.


Either way, ultimately its a lot of extra capability that one wouldnt be able to bring to if the full value of those points was accounted for.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Considering this is the LVO, I doubt the number of themed lists exceeded anything more than negligible.

The issue you're presenting here is "are" or "were", because right now Tau aren't broken, but they're extremely competitive. If you want to phrase it as "were Tau broken?" then yes, they clearly were because of how immensely stronger CFP was, which was the major change. The only other big change was that to the Piranha Wing, but that can be argued a lot more, though in my opinion it was a change for the better.

More so, the other thing too look at these numbers, is that the same amount of Marines or Tau made the top 20 or top 50, and yet there are constant cries on here about Marine favourtism or whatnot, which clearly isn't the case when looking at the numbers. It's not so much favourtism, it's how much one army needs to be altered in comparison to the others, and yes you can argue some changes aren't necessary, such as the Holophoton one, or in my case I disagree with the ECPA change, but it shouldn't be reasonable to argue about the major changes like CFP or to a lesser extent Drone Factories, since Tau is already highly competitive without them, and could easily become broken with them. So yes, Tau are fine currently, and maybe then can get some of the small things back, but they surely don't need the big things.

Again, this is coming from someone who only intends to play Tau in the foreseeable future.

Edit: Oh, I forgot the Tau'nar change, but I'm sure we can all agree that was correct, even though there were (maybe are) plenty of people saying that was unfair.

Exalted for truth.

I would say that at that level player skill has the most to do with the final placings. Looking purely by rankings, Tau did very well at the LVO, despite all the calls that they were "unplayable" with the new changes.

I do find it ironic that despite the calls that the ITC is biased toward the Imperium, Tau did on average batter than most Space Marine players.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Some more fun statistics now that all lists and standings have been posted:

There were 22 Tau players total, meaning 7% of the field. There were 5 Tau players in the top 50, or 6 if you count the multiple top 50s players making it 6 out of 53, meaning the top 50 was either 10% or 11% Tau, based on which you choose.

There were 44 Marine players, with only 5 or 6 in the top 50/53, meaning they had 10% or 11% of the top 50. Despite having a showing twice as high as Tau, they had less than half as many placing players in the top 50. (Derp: CSM)

There were 42 Eldar players in the event, with 10 or 13 in the top 50, meaning they had 20-26% of the top 50. More than double the Tau representation, with slightly less players than double that of Tau. (Correction: Accidentally counted a DE as Eldar)

Other armies in the top 50 (using the 53 figures):

Necrons (5): 9.4%
Dark Angels (5 out of 11 players): 9.4%
Renegades (5 out of 7 players!): 9.4%
Cult Mech (3): 5.6%
Daemons (3): 5.6%
Tyranids (2): 3.7%
Grey Knights (1): 1.8%
CSM (1): 1.8%
Inquisition (1): 1.8%
SoBs (1): 1.8%
Dark Eldar (1): 1.8%
(Source: http://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/lvo2016 )

Basically Eldar are way ahead of everyone, then Tau and Space Marines are close, and finally everyone else.

Edit: Updated some errors due to search methods, the new figures show Tau is strictly better than Space Marines in terms of top 50 results.

Nice breakdown. Thank you for doing that.

Tinkrr - Very fair points, although I would say 2 Marines and 2 Dark Angels is for all intents and purposes 4 Marine players in the top 20. Not that I think there is any Marine bias, but I don't distinguish a lot between different colors of Marines

Additionally, I think with any army it's going to be hard to draw conclusions based on "what if". I.e. "what if" the ITC had not nerfed Tau for the LVO?

But that's really the question going forward, since some of these things will almost certainly be on their next ballot. Based on these results, I don't think everything was necessary... but again, the only one I was really making a point of was the Ghostkeel ruling, since it seemed the most unnecessary of all.

You could say the inverse of your question - "Would not nerfing the Ghostkeel make Tau broken?" And I think the answer to that should be obvious, and hope voters are feeling generous towards their Tau brethren (which again I do Not play) when it comes time to vote

 RiTides wrote:
Tinkrr, honestly I think the numbers can point a number of ways... for instance, sure there are always a lot of marine players, but you also always have quite a few marine players who just play their army as-is (themed, rules be darned). That's true of many armies, of course, but I've encountered a lot of marine players who don't optimize. So, marines having more numbers overall but not more in the top 50 isn't surprising.
.

Surprising or not, it was fact.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RiTides wrote:

Additionally, I think with any army it's going to be hard to draw conclusions based on "what if". I.e. "what if" the ITC had not nerfed Tau for the LVO?

yeah going there isn't worth it. We can never really know.

The sisters of Battle showing sucked. We have got to mobilize the sistahs. We created a Facebook for that. I am hoping we get off the schneid and start organizing our various forces. I would love to see some Suisters at these things more frequently. It makes me want to go despite all my reservations, just to kick hiney with them.

As pointed out above, if you count Dark Angels, Marines would be 20% of the Top 20 or Top 50 (4 or 11 armies, respectively). Not that it means anything, just pointing out how the numbers can be pretty subjective depending on how you slice them!

I just don't see any numbers here that point to Tau having been a real problem, and so some of the more minor nerfs (aka Ghostkeel) might not be needed.

The point's probably crystal clear by now so I'll bow out of the thread, but I really appreciate the intelligent discussion / debate, from Tinkrr especially!

 Vaktathi wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
The plasma guns was an example, that said, those 6 plasma weapons alone are 270pts worth of gear putting out up to 18 S7 ap2 shots a turn at very high BS ratings, typically also paired with cover save reducing wargear (that is also free courtesy of the formation) not counting their ability to ignore Gets Hot and benefit from Mechanicum rules. That is not an inconsequential firepower boost.

18 S7 AP2 shots a turn at high BS skill within 18 inches of a target.

yea, but thats often eminently possible from even turn 1. Thats 3 squads of IG plasma vets as 12" worth of fire (not counting doctrinas and whatnot), not an inconsiderable level of free firepower at all.

In order to take 3 Plasma Calivers per squad, you need to take a full squad of 10 models. That's 100 points for the Vanguard and 120 points for the Rangers. There's a 95 point difference in favor of the Vanguard/Rangers between those twenty guys and your 30 Plasma Gun vets with no other upgrades being factored in. Adding in Carapace Armor for 15 pts/squad brings the difference up to 140 points--but the Guardsmen are now suddenly as survivable as the Skitarii, have an additional 10 models on them and still have the option for a Veteran Weapons Team in each squad.

The lack of "Gets Hot" is a mixed bag. Skitarii BS values are high enough that once you pop your best two Doctrina Imperatives(+2 and +3 BS) you're getting rerolls--and that's without factoring in "Benediction of Omniscience" from the Canticles in War Convocation, which many players will pop first(allows you to re-roll all failed To Hit rolls when making shooting attacks at 5+ units) before applying the Doctrina Imperatives for +2/+3 BS.

right, but it basically eliminates any shred of risk that might slip through, on top of all the other special rules, and, as noted, for the K Destroyers

When you're paying double the points to begin with for an additional shot at 6" more than the Rapid Fire version, there should not be that risk in the first place.

Nobody really runs Kataphron Destroyers with Plasma Culverin though. Grav-Cannons are far more effective/necessary for Mechanicus.

The Omnispex is also a no-brainer upgrade that every Skitarii player takes, whether they are running a War Convocation or not, because the other option(Enhanced Data-Tether) is a joke. It's literally "-1 to a Cover Save" or "+1 LD when under the effects of Doctrina Imperatives"(not stackable with Broad Spectrum Data-Tethers; which come standard on Onagers, Dragoons, and Ironstriders and rather than applying to 1 unit instead get bubbled out).

right, but they get the goodies for free. They add up and have a very real effect, the points costs ostensibly were there for a reason, getting them for free adds up.

And even if they were paying for them, they'd still be taken. That's where your argument falls apart.

20 points for the Skitarii Vanguard and Rangers to ignore a single point of Cover is not as big as you seem to think it is.

Either way, ultimately its a lot of extra capability that one wouldnt be able to bring to if the full value of those points was accounted for.

Putting it rather bluntly, the points values for Skitarii upgrades are dumb to begin with. They're more dumb than most Imperial upgrades are.

 Tinkrr wrote:
Some more fun statistics now that all lists and standings have been posted:

There were 22 Tau players total, meaning 7% of the field. There were 5 Tau players in the top 50, or 6 if you count the multiple top 50s players making it 6 out of 53, meaning the top 50 was either 10% or 11% Tau, based on which you choose.

There were 44 Marine players, with only 5 or 6 in the top 50/53, meaning they had 10% or 11% of the top 50. Despite having a showing twice as high as Tau, they had less than half as many placing players in the top 50. (Derp: CSM)

There were 42 Eldar players in the event, with 10 or 13 in the top 50, meaning they had 20-26% of the top 50. More than double the Tau representation, with slightly less players than double that of Tau. (Correction: Accidentally counted a DE as Eldar)

Other armies in the top 50 (using the 53 figures):

Necrons (5): 9.4%
Dark Angels (5 out of 11 players): 9.4%
Renegades (5 out of 7 players!): 9.4%
Cult Mech (3): 5.6%
Daemons (3): 5.6%
Tyranids (2): 3.7%
Grey Knights (1): 1.8%
CSM (1): 1.8%
Inquisition (1): 1.8%
SoBs (1): 1.8%
Dark Eldar (1): 1.8%
(Source: http://www.bestcoastpairings.com/r/lvo2016 )

Basically Eldar are way ahead of everyone, then Tau and Space Marines are close, and finally everyone else.

Edit: Updated some errors due to search methods, the new figures show Tau is strictly better than Space Marines in terms of top 50 results.

I'm surprised that such great units like Mutilators and Warp Talons didn't make CSM appear more.

Glad 3 Necron lists made the top 10 though.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

I'm surprised that such great units like Mutilators and Warp Talons didn't make CSM appear more..

Pretty sure the Chaos Marine list didn't have them in it. So no real surprise on the result, Slayer-Fan.

It shouldnt be surprising that Necrons did well...theyve got astounding mobility and even better resiliency and have shown strongly at every event in the last year

 Vaktathi wrote:
Last time i faced such a list it had ~560 or so points worth of free stuff, but even if its "just" 300 that matter...thats 300 extra points! If I showed up to a game with a CAD ig list eoth two extra russ tanks, nobody woukd doubt that that would play a very strong role in shifting the expected outcome of victory. Thr mechanicum is getting those free points on great stuff too like assault 3 plasma guns...that also cannot "get hot" and benefit from both skitarii and mechanicum special rules and abilities.

Not saying there arent other powerful absurdiies as well, but theyre all exactly that, absurdities, abortions of game design that give outrageously powerful bonuses

If the dark eldar rumors are to be believed (and I think they are too specific) you can expect alot more of the same going forward as GW tries to temp people to buy more things with free transports to cram that many more points into their games.


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Either way, ultimately its a lot of extra capability that one wouldnt be able to bring to if the full value of those points was accounted for.

If I was making a tournament list, many of those points would be made up from not taking sub standard units. As much as I like ruststalkers, they are 160 points of dead weight in many tournaments, unless free. If I was hurting even more for points, I would rather have more vanguard then infiltrators too. Lost too many of that more than a terminator cost unit to one guy with an assault cannon then I would like to in competative games.


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Also orks not even making the top 50, even WITH the option of a semi cheating half priced stompa, is super depressing. For gods sake, even sisters made it.

I'm really sad no Orks were in the top 50, I was really hoping for some good showings with the Stompa change, but oh well. The closest one was something like 54 I think?

 RiTides wrote:
As pointed out above, if you count Dark Angels, Marines would be 20% of the Top 20 or Top 50 (4 or 11 armies, respectively). Not that it means anything, just pointing out how the numbers can be pretty subjective depending on how you slice them!

I just don't see any numbers here that point to Tau having been a real problem, and so some of the more minor nerfs (aka Ghostkeel) might not be needed.

The point's probably crystal clear by now so I'll bow out of the thread, but I really appreciate the intelligent discussion / debate, from Tinkrr especially!

I tend to let the ITC slice it, since it seems like they distinguish some Space Marine armies, but not others. Though if you wish to not slice them, when you take the number of all Marine lists (Wolves, DA, BA, and Spice), you have 71 players running Marines, which is almost 25% of the field, but their showing in the top 20 would only be 20%, while Tau still hold a 10% showing, making them have half the showing with less than a third of the players. No matter how you really slice it, it looks in Tau's favour.

Again, all the numbers are in a post nerf world, which means the nerfs worked as they kept Tau highly competitive, but not broken, I'd say that's what most would call good balance. As for the Ghostkeel changes, as I've said, that one can go either way for me, I don't see a real issue with it and it would probably be one of the first on the list to be reversed out of all the changes. However, as we can see, the changes weren't bias against Tau, but rather simple balancing that put them in a very good place.

Any time, you're a pleasure to deal with.