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Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The problem with BA is gw gave them nothing new unlike Tau. They just got back things that had been taken away from them.

That and their entire concept fails because meqs are now target dummies with the life expectancy of a guardsman. But please thread tell me how the codex with the stormsurge is getting so shafted.

SS is good. But it is also 435 points and dies very quickly compared to other GMC since it is T6/3+

If by quickly, you mean never, I agree. Gmcs are only thing more unfair than mcs.

Watch some BR. SS die very quickly. Frontline had 1 die in a round of shooting to grave cents. Miniwargaming had 1 die in one round of shooting to Kastelan's

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The problem with BA is gw gave them nothing new unlike Tau. They just got back things that had been taken away from them.

That and their entire concept fails because meqs are now target dummies with the life expectancy of a guardsman. But please thread tell me how the codex with the stormsurge is getting so shafted.

SS is good. But it is also 435 points and dies very quickly compared to other GMC since it is T6/3+

If by quickly, you mean never, I agree. Gmcs are only thing more unfair than mcs.

Watch some BR. SS die very quickly. Frontline had 1 die in a round of shooting to grave cents. Miniwargaming had 1 die in one round of shooting to Kastelan's

You're talking to a BA player. He doesn't have grav centurions, castellans, grav cannon devastators, or a way to reliably get even grav guns into a storm surge's threat zone without being taken out.

It's all in the viewpoints man.

 niv-mizzet wrote:
You're talking to a BA player. He doesn't have grav centurions, castellans, grav cannon devastators, or a way to reliably get even grav guns into a storm surge's threat zone without being taken out.

It's really a shame Lib Dreadnoughts aren't more viable. They'd be great GMC killers.

Yoyoyo wrote:

 niv-mizzet wrote:
You're talking to a BA player. He doesn't have grav centurions, castellans, grav cannon devastators, or a way to reliably get even grav guns into a storm surge's threat zone without being taken out.

It's really a shame Lib Dreadnoughts aren't more viable. They'd be great GMC killers.

They need 4 base attacks. You'd be surprised how less terrible melee Dreads are thanks to that minor buff. All the FW dreads need that too.

 niv-mizzet wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

notredameguy10 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Dozer Blades wrote:
The problem with BA is gw gave them nothing new unlike Tau. They just got back things that had been taken away from them.

That and their entire concept fails because meqs are now target dummies with the life expectancy of a guardsman. But please thread tell me how the codex with the stormsurge is getting so shafted.

SS is good. But it is also 435 points and dies very quickly compared to other GMC since it is T6/3+

If by quickly, you mean never, I agree. Gmcs are only thing more unfair than mcs.

Watch some BR. SS die very quickly. Frontline had 1 die in a round of shooting to grave cents. Miniwargaming had 1 die in one round of shooting to Kastelan's

You're talking to a BA player. He doesn't have grav centurions, castellans, grav cannon devastators, or a way to reliably get even grav guns into a storm surge's threat zone without being taken out.

It's all in the viewpoints man.

Its 7th ed. He isn't a BA player, hes an imperial player. Ally in some Cents, Ally in some Ad mech.

There is no codex IoM. I am a BA player. By the time you ally in cents, you might as well throw the BA in the garbage can and build a new list.

Martel732 wrote:
There is no codex IoM. I am a BA player. By the time you ally in cents, you might as well throw the BA in the garbage can and build a new list.

Loved it when BA did great in a tournament when they actually brought a priest, some scouts and enough drop pods for Skitarii, and people were like "look, BA did great in that tournament, there's nothing wrong with them."

Naw wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
There is no codex IoM. I am a BA player. By the time you ally in cents, you might as well throw the BA in the garbage can and build a new list.

Loved it when BA did great in a tournament when they actually brought a priest, some scouts and enough drop pods for Skitarii, and people were like "look, BA did great in that tournament, there's nothing wrong with them."

Oh, you mean Mephiston's Taxi Service?

Seriously every xenos player who goes "waaah IoM codex" needs to stfu because they know thats bs. I didn't come to the table to play Space Wolves I came to play Grey Knights. Just like the Blood Angels came to play Blood Angels.

If we go by that Eldar and DE need to be merged. Oh wait they pretty already are because BB as well. But not a single Imperium player on this forum has bitched about that.

Tau used to be BB with Eldar as well. We know how that went.

It is not an argument to say "go play another army".

"Not a single imperium player ... Bitched about it"?

Wraithguard are OP because of WWP. How many times has that been bitched about (legitimately)?

Craptons. Because its BS. But the point is that there are complaints.

CWE being so much better than DE kinda mitigates the complaints, though.

Not a single IoM player bitched about CWE being able to use WWP. No one went "hurt durr superfriends".

Everyone bitches about units. I know I have a Dreadknight.

Also tell a DE player to ally in some CWE to make his DE better. That will go wonderfully.

Wraithguard are also OP dumped out of a serpent. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Not really connected to the issue of the ITC but sure.

Martel732 wrote:
Wraithguard are also OP dumped out of a serpent. Let's not kid ourselves here.

Exactly. Add on the stupid engine thing and you can get them blasting targets T2.

IMO netting tau blatantly and ignoring rules as written would be fine and dandy if this was done to every big army. As it stands though, needing tau but not eldar and space marines as much sort of makes this a pointless thing. If you need the second most powerful army instead of the top of the top, all your doing is making it so the game is still broken whilst also limiting veriety in the top tier. If you don't bring all the top tier cheese down, all your doing is making it so there are less flavors of top tier cheese.

Regardless of if tau deserve to be nerfed for being op, it won't make more lists viable if they are unless all other op armies are nerfed. Hitting one of the top armies for no reason while leaving the rest untouched will simply leave you with one less top army, and less veriety. You need top hit all the top armies or buff all the bad ones so they're at the same power level of you want everyone viable.

The simple fact remains that picking on tau arbitrarily instead of others that are also out of line shows that tau are getting special treatment, and indeed is getting unfair treatment. If you think tau need to be nurfed then you should argue that eldar necrons and space marines need it. Tau players also are justified in being mad, as they are getting unequal treatment compared to better armies.

Tau players would be fine if the same nerfs happened to Eldar. Most Tau players feel that they have been target and they have been. Since the codex came out there have been 6 nerfs or conservative interpretations to their rules. This did not occur with the Eldar codex. There has always been a long standing rule in the ITC that hell storm templates or ranged D blasts would be banned or nerfed. The new Wraithknight from the IA book received no critical review. The warp Hunter also received a pass. Wait till you see this combo hit the competively scene en masse. Those two units will push the bad feeling games to a new level and yet received not one acknowledgment that they might be game breaking.

The new Eldar IA also came out two (three?) weeks ago. After a participants list had been locked in as far as I am aware. So it won't even be in this tourney and thus does not have to be ruled yet.

 Quickjager wrote:
The new Eldar IA also came out two (three?) weeks ago. After a participants list had been locked in as far as I am aware. So it won't even be in this tourney and thus does not have to be ruled yet.

List have been locked? I don't think so. The ghost keel and piranha rulings were done with one weeks notice.

The same could have been done for the doom of mymearya.

Am I wrong? I'll look into it.

EDIT: It says on their format what books ARE allowed and it doesn't look like IA:11 is on it. So I guess I was right.

Jaxler wrote:
IMO netting tau blatantly and ignoring rules as written would be fine and dandy if this was done to every big army. As it stands though, needing tau but not eldar and space marines as much sort of makes this a pointless thing. If you need the second most powerful army instead of the top of the top, all your doing is making it so the game is still broken whilst also limiting veriety in the top tier. If you don't bring all the top tier cheese down, all your doing is making it so there are less flavors of top tier cheese.

Regardless of if tau deserve to be nerfed for being op, it won't make more lists viable if they are unless all other op armies are nerfed. Hitting one of the top armies for no reason while leaving the rest untouched will simply leave you with one less top army, and less veriety. You need top hit all the top armies or buff all the bad ones so they're at the same power level of you want everyone viable.

The simple fact remains that picking on tau arbitrarily instead of others that are also out of line shows that tau are getting special treatment, and indeed is getting unfair treatment. If you think tau need to be nurfed then you should argue that eldar necrons and space marines need it. Tau players also are justified in being mad, as they are getting unequal treatment compared to better armies.

Unequal? Hardly. Merely measured according to their power level.

Take Eldar. Shortly after the most recent Eldar codex came out, the ITC voted in new restrictions on ranged D-weapons. Coincedence? There's only one army that has as great access to the D, and that's Eldar. Nerfs to Invisibility and 2+ re-rollable saves, along with the limitation of having only one unit of GC, have done much to tone down some of the most egregious traits of Eldar.

In addition to being hurt by the 2+ re-rollable and Invisibility nerfs, limits on the number of detachments one can take and sources from which one may draw units have toned down the Allies shenanigans that the Imperium can abuse.

So no, Tau are not treated unfairly.

Tau players complaining about these nerfs is the equivalent to Donald Trump complaining about how he gets higher taxes than the poor.

 Quickjager wrote:
Am I wrong? I'll look into it.

EDIT: It says on their format what books ARE allowed and it doesn't look like IA:11 is on it. So I guess I was right.

Incorrect , both Eldar players in the top table used units from that book. The warp Hunter from that book is 185 points and the WK Skathach, 2x deathshrouds, scatter laser 330.

You know what? You're right.

It appears they were using a different source.

The Warphunter was using the old 2013 rules from IA-Apocalypse.

The Skathach is listed as being from the normal Eldar Codex? wtf? Was this technically an illegal list?

 Quickjager wrote:
You know what? You're right.

It appears they were using a different source.

The Warphunter was using the old 2013 rules from IA-Apocalypse.

The Skathach is listed as being from the normal Eldar Codex? wtf? Was this technically an illegal list?

No, both are valid choices for Eldar Craftworlds. Their dataslate opens it up for the codex. Which is why you will see it ad nausem now.

Jaxler wrote:


The simple fact remains that picking on tau arbitrarily instead of others that are also out of line shows that tau are getting special treatment, and indeed is getting unfair treatment. If you think tau need to be nurfed then you should argue that eldar necrons and space marines need it. Tau players also are justified in being mad, as they are getting unequal treatment compared to better armies.

I'd say the Tau dodged a bullet. The Tau haven't faced near the backlash the Eldar got. If ITC Un-nerfed them. I would imagine a ton of anti-Tau threads will be on Dakka with in a week. The Tau hate wouldn't be conspiracy theory anymore it would be very real.

 thejughead wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
You know what? You're right.

It appears they were using a different source.

The Warphunter was using the old 2013 rules from IA-Apocalypse.

The Skathach is listed as being from the normal Eldar Codex? wtf? Was this technically an illegal list?

No, both are valid choices for Eldar Craftworlds. Their dataslate opens it up for the codex. Which is why you will see it ad nausem now.

Alright which data-slate. The only data-slate I can honestly remember the Eldar getting is Ghost Warriors.

 Crimson Devil wrote:

Jaxler wrote:


The simple fact remains that picking on tau arbitrarily instead of others that are also out of line shows that tau are getting special treatment, and indeed is getting unfair treatment. If you think tau need to be nurfed then you should argue that eldar necrons and space marines need it. Tau players also are justified in being mad, as they are getting unequal treatment compared to better armies.

I'd say the Tau dodged a bullet. The Tau haven't faced near the backlash the Eldar got. If ITC Un-nerfed them. I would imagine a ton of anti-Tau threads will be on Dakka with in a week. The Tau hate wouldn't be conspiracy theory anymore it would be very real.

I'll say again the only thing I think ITC did unfairly is the Ghostkeel. Most everything else is ok. As far as Tau hate goes, it is very real. I've played Tau since they were still using their 4th edition codex and I still get accused of being a bandwagoner and using cheese because I have a Tau army. People either like Tau, or hate Tau and really nothing in between. It's actually detered me from going to play games before because I don't want to listen to someone complain about the ARMY I'm playing, while I'm losing the game (dice hate me...).

Oh yeah, tau hate on pre-codex late 5th was also a thing, not that it was even remotely playable back then other than gimmick trolling lists (aka kroot trump bike marines case)

In any case. We DO get unequal, and unfair treatment.

Had these units and formations been allowed to make a test run, and proven in action to be overwhelming, not a single tau player would argue against a correction nerf.

But preemptive nerfing, on things that are questionably even as good as currently running units, that's plain nasty.

Ghostkneel trick is watered down invisibility - might be auromatic and no psyker required, but it's limited use. Had they allowed it to simply work under invisibility changes (bs1 rather than snaps, so templates and blasts still work) would it be a problem? No.
Instead, in pure tau hating they took out the ability from potential 3 single shots per game, to max 1 time. Not even 1 turn, just 1 shot. On an MC that us within ID range anyway.

Pirana firestorm? No reason to belive it's any better than all existing auto-spawner, respawner and freeby units formations and FOCs out there, none of them git nerfed, most of them are not even seeing competitive play, let alone top tables.
The assumption that it MUST be OP despite zero evidence and the outright ignoring of the many issues and strings attached of the formation from all who advocate against it is mind boggling.
Might it be too much? Yes. But that's far from being proven. It never saw a competitive table, nor will it ever see under the nerf.


Tau isn't in a bad spot, even after the nerf. Bit they were unfair, unequal and unnecessary.
Tau has things that need to be fixed, both buffing and nerfing (at times on the same unit/mechanic you need one side buffed and another nerfed, for example broadside HYMP and HRR), but these were not the things that were modified, nor was it done correctly.

ITC ruling is "popular vote". This means popular armies get a built in edge over unpopular ones on ruling, and tau were hated even when they were bottom tier, they are simply disliked by a portion of the community due to thier different style.
IoM is a big faction with many players, even obvious ruling against it are unlikely to ever pass.
Orks were always popular, so they get slowed ruling in thier favor like the super cheap stompa that passed a while ago. They need to be better, but this isn't the way.



ITC is very anti-tau, and don't even try to hide it. During the votes on these many people on forums, this one included, outright said they don't even play ITC, but voted against tau just to feth them over because of simple hate.
The questions were not even worded as rules questions, but as "what would you like it to be". It's not clarifications or corrections, it's outright modified rules.
The only other such case I recall is ranged D weapons. And I'm still not convinced it was justified. Against most things a D and S10 are mechanically identical, and nobody flocked to wraith guard when they had S10 guns, while the knight is just as OP anyhow as that was never the thing that was broken in it, but it's endurance and GMC immunities.
And that wasn't limited to eldar. They took the biggest hit, but others have ranged D as well.

Heck, tau are not even allowed the railshark, and it's 660 points for a single D shot (high accuracy, but single shot.) on a 12/12/10/6 jet. It's not even DECENT. it's just banned for no reason at all.

Thunderhawk is also banned.

Its banned for being a super heavy flyer, one of the criterion for banning super heavies (that said I think one of the IOM SHF is allowed, unsure).

I agree with the fire stream nerf despite playing tau, there is nothing you can do the source of the free units when player unerfed.

Everything else is questionable.