Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Hi guys as you see in subject i am new in this system. I would like to start playing bike SM and i know there are two chapters for this kind of roosters, white scars and dark angels . Could you guys give me some more information about their play style/roosters/weak and strong sides?
cheers

For a new player, it would be easier to build a Ravenwing list, as most of the stuff you need to build it come right out of the boxes. For White Scars, there are a lot of extra spending to get the grav guns that make the list powerful.

though, pick what you like best.

well first of all ill break down the things each has going for them and go from there:

dark angels:

one of the best fast attack choices in the imperium the black knight

one of the runners up in the fast slot the darkshroud

sammael one of the best ranged hq's in any space marine army (as only the vehicle HQ's have anything that can stack up to a plasma cannon).

really strong re-roll jink special rule

you can take units from other codecies and have them work well with your army, can take non bike units and do well with them in the army as well (if chosen carefully)

one of the best imperial ground attack aircraft (non forgeworld) in the dark talon

the best CC terminators in the deathwing knights, one of the few armies that can really milk the limited edition land raider excelsior for all kinds of potential

we have really strong veterans with lots of utility

better chaplains then other marines


white scars:

ko'sarro kahn is argueably one of the best named space marine who can ride a bike or be a cavalry and superior to sammael in cc (no way hes outshooting him though cause plasma cannon)

access to lots of interesting options in the kauyan codex supplement

access to an insane array of relics and useful warlord traits as a result of kauyan

can build a better generic HQ then the dark angels thanks to thinks like the shield eternal and their other various armour and utility relics

access to generic chapter master (dark angels dont have that luxury)

scouts are better in white scars (thanks to land speeder storm)

now heres the cons of the dark angels and scars i feel:

white scars: a tad one dimensional as far as a playerbase. the second someone finds out you play scars they know every in and out in your list because nobody runs white scars any other way then spam bikes and take a few speeders. to the point where an experienced player can pretty much guess every wargear upgrade you take and your hq selection sometimes. so up front you sacrifice a lot of predictability if you decide to run the same list everyone else is

white scars are a very self contained army, they dont get a long well in an allied situation because of their very intel nature as a force. they look inside for answers and theres very little they would like to have outside their own army roster

struggle very hard in certain matchups: the tau come to mind as a force that can really wreck the white scars, so much ignores cover just denys their jink saves and starves them of their durability so much, they can also play very passively and defensively and thats a foe thats tough for them to crack

dark angels:

bad hq's (like some of them are really bad asmodai is objectively the worst hq in the entire game).

lack of anti-air unless you go to forgeworld

no ironclad dreadnaught or any special dreadnaught of any kind (the contempor mortis doesnt count to me thats a cheap cop out)

our one air to air fighter plane is absolute garbage

terminators are a bit awkward to take right now, they either do well or absolutely terribly, some of their upgrades are a little funny to consider taking and do little for you. it doesnt help that terminators struggle this edition at all

a little behind the times on marine tech (no centurions, no stalker/hunter, no land speeder storm, no storm talon/ storm raven

captains cant take bikes, generic chaplains cant take relics (only an interrogator can), techmarines cant take relics

azreal is our lord of war hq and hes the worst lord of war commander in the game now. and that means he loses to ghazkul thrakka, that speaks volumes about how bad he is

lack of options via things like codex supplements right now or formations, we have very very few formations. we also have the worse of the two librarian spam formations (librarius conclave)

 Crazyterran wrote:
For White Scars, there are a lot of extra spending to get the grav guns that make the list powerful. .

I use these for my grav guns. Instead of buying tons of bits from other people at a premium, just buy third party guns.
http://www.anvilindustry.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=60_104&product_id=222

Cheap and (arguably) better looking Grav? http://bitsofwar.com/home/161-gravity-distorters.html
Worth mentioning WS bikers are cheaper than RW, and RW still has that weakness to Tau.
DA can't take bike Command squads and if they want to spam bikes they have to go with their particular formation iirc, whereas the White Scars need only a CAD and an HQ biker.

Considering Ravenwing are now allowed to simply take a chaplain or what have you on a bike for their HQ, they do not need to pay the Sammael tax anymore. (For the Ravenwing detachment)

 mathaius90 wrote:
Cheap and (arguably) better looking Grav? http://bitsofwar.com/home/161-gravity-distorters.html
Worth mentioning WS bikers are cheaper than RW, and RW still has that weakness to Tau.
DA can't take bike Command squads and if they want to spam bikes they have to go with their particular formation iirc, whereas the White Scars need only a CAD and an HQ biker.

we argueably have a better bike command squad then white scars step off, i mean their banner is an extra dice on flat out moves, and there black knights objectively their amazing at everything

I think the DA have better fancy bike units, but WS have a more solid basic bike. Once you step outside the bikes themselves, the vanilla codex offers more things to pick up to support your army.

But both are viable.

Thx for so many advices! Bikers are more for shooting style right? What is typical core of the roster for both orders? I dont mean whole rosters just main things

I can’t speak for DA, and only partially for WS. (I play Ultramarines, and while I do use bikes, they support the rest of my force, not make it up)

There are some specific WS formations/relics in a recent supplement, might be worth looking into.

For a HQ, a chapter master on a bike with the shield eternal/thunderhammer is quite popular. But if you are going with a CAD, a bike librarian is a solid choice.

Command squad on bikes lets you spam special weapons, and get feel no pain from the apothecary. Alternatively, you can use them a a close combat unit. If you want to sink a huge number of point into them, both. At the end of the day, they are a very flexible, if expensive, unit, and probably worth taking.

Your basic bike squad is going to be 3-5 guys (probably) I like the extra warm bodies to soak wounds, but I’m not sure if that’s just what I’m used to. Previous editions required 5 man squads to count as troops, a restriction lifted in the latest codex. The basic loadout is two of the same special, with a matching combi on the sarge. Grav is the go-to these days, as it does very well on relentless platforms. I still advocate a little melta in lists, as some things still need to be reduced to molten slag. Frankly, you could make a perfectly fine army just taking a mix of grav and melta bike squads.

For my money, the White Scars are the marginally more interesting choice, though both armies are decidedly over-represented currently.

The trick to succeeding with White Scars is to take inspiration from the Mongols themselves. Keeping your units quick and mobile is essential (so I'd recommend you don't use Rhinos as screening units, but as getaway vehicles), and ganging up with your units to focus down threats will be very helpful.

The other thing you can take from the armies of Genghis Khan is a bit of dirty play. Use as many cheap tricks and irritating tactics as you can. That means outflanking units, Cerberus Launchers, Grav weapons and Hit-and-Run moves aplenty.

Have a look at the Formations and Relics in the Kauyon and Mont'ka books and see what you can get. The White Scars can be a fun and satisfying army to play, just try to avoid anything overly cheesy.

Thanks ! This are really usefull informations!

Just need some more info for DA and I' will be able to choose army

Had you ever seen DA and WS in ally?

Xeranik wrote:
Have you ever seen DA and WS in ally?

I’ve not seen anyone do it, and probably wouldn’t recommend it.

At the end of the day, there are only subtle differences between the two factions. The overhead of mandatory choices and keeping track of who’s got what rule, etc. are probably not going to be worth any marginal boosts you can squeeze out of them.

What I might suggest, if you are not tied to the paintjob a/o lore of either chapter, is to make your own custom chapter. You can then use whatever rules you want, depending on the list you make.

From personal experience as a Dark Angels player
Darkshrouds are absolutely needed. Constantly Jink with it and keep one near your RWCS
Black Knights are quite expensive, but they are the greatest thing ever. Rapid fire plasma, super durability with the 2+ rerollable junk and T5 (FNP on RWCS with apothecary) high mobility and they will tear apart almost anything in assault. They also have the boosted overwatch if they didn't jink that turn. Unless you are facing Tau they will always pay for themselves.

Ravenwing Support Squadron with Black Knights are 2++ rerollable jink saves. Really strong combo. The twinlinked on the plasma helps to offset a little of the snap shooting from jinking

What you guys think about this ? Khan is leader of Hunting and Chapter MAster of WS is going to Black Knights (battlescribe couldn't promot HQ to khan in hunting ;P )


# New Roster (1844pts) #

## Space Marines: Codex (2015) (SM WS Scarblade Strike Force) (1259pts) ##

White Scars

### Core (984pts) ###
* #### 'Hunting Force * (984pts) ####
* #### Attack Bike Squad ####
3x Attack Bike Multi-melta, Twin-Linked Boltgun

2x #### Bike Squad ####
1x Biker Veteran Sergeant ####
3x Space Marine Biker Bolt Pistol
2x Space Marine Biker with Special Weapon Grav-gun, Twin-Linked Boltgun

* #### Chapter Master Artificer Armour Power Fist, Space Marine Bike, The Hunter's Eye, The Shield Eternal

* #### Scout Bike Squad ####
7x Scout Biker
2x Scout Biker with Astartes Grenade Launcher
1x Scout Biker Sergeant
Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs

### Command (150pts) ###
Kor'sarro Khan Moondrakkan

### Auxiliary (125pts) ###
* #### 'Speartip Strike * (125pts) ####

2x #### Attack Bike Squad ####
Attack Bike Heavy Bolter, Twin-Linked Boltgun

* #### Land Speeder Heavy Bolter


## Dark Angels: Codex (2015) (DA Ravenwing Strike Force) (585pts) ##

### Fast Attack (200pts) ###
#### Ravenwing Bike Squad (105pts) 2x Grav Gun,
2x Ravenwing Biker
1x Ravenwing Sergeant
Bolt Pistol

#### Ravenwing Darkshroud (95pts) Assault Cannon

### Elites (275pts) ###
* #### Ravenwing Command Squad (275pts) ####
6x Black Knight, Ravenwing Apothecary, Ravenwing Champion, 2x Ravenwing Grenade Launcher

### HQ (110pts) ###
* #### Librarian (110pts) Power Armour, Boltgun, Force Axe, Space Marine Bike, Level 2