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I mean, the nerfs happen the week of the LVOGT and are unannounced. If you were taking some of the affected units, would you be happy about it? Just seems like another knee-jerk overreaction from ITC regarding Tau.
LValx wrote: I mean, the nerfs happen the week of the LVOGT and are unannounced. If you were taking some of the affected units, would you be happy about it? Just seems like another knee-jerk overreaction from ITC regarding Tau.
Oh, well that I was not aware of, and agree that's kind of a bad move. I can understand the complaints about that. However, I was under the impression that people were just mad at the nerfs in general, thinking they are unnecessary.
krodarklorr wrote: Really, the nerfs don't seem that bad. They seem to make sense. I don't understand what all the complaining is about.
I’m not sure, I’m hardly a Tau fan but the Ghostkeel getting that nerf on top of the previous Hunter Contingent ruling seems really harsh.
The piranhas losing the ability to leave the board on the same turn it enters I can totally get behind however since you cannot interact with the drone spam; whilst the Stormsurges not getting murdered when it gets rammed seems to make sense.
As an outsider looking in, the targeted nerfs and timing of them really comes across as…sketchy…
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 15:43:32
Hawky wrote: Power Armour's greatest weakness is Newton, the deadliest snfbtch in space.
I mean, I definitely think they are unnecessary (I don't play Tau, in fact, they are probably my most numerous opponent, so I should be rejoicing). But the worst part of the FAQ is that it was updated last Friday and did not get a front page article on Frontlinegaming. This is sort of sketchy, IMO, because there are people who have already left, or are just about to leave for LVO, meaning they have little to no time to react to this decision. Hopefully this wasn't purposefully done and was a simple oversight on FLG's part.
Piranha wing nerf was expected. Even if they are just gun drones, dumping off 32 gun drones per turn is way worse than daemon factory tactics especially if we bring a Drone Net so theyre all BS3. Tbh its still a deadly as hell formation because its still going to produce 160-192 drones a game assuming none of them get immobilized or completely wiped out. It says they cant leave the same turn, but turn 1 they didnt arrive so they can dump then leave. On top of the 32 Seeker missiles every other turn, which on a fast vehicle means BS3 for all that you couldnt Markerlight for. Really dont consider that a nerf.
Stormsurge thing was a ruling over a hot topic involving the Anchors, since it "cannot move by any means" while deployed to get out of the way. Some people were saying it takes D3 hits until it dies because the vehicle is stopped on it and it cant move. Logically, that makes no damn sense. Walkers already enter combat at the end of the phase if a Ram failed to kill them, so its not surprising the Stormsurge can do the same.
The ghostkeel nerf is an obvious knee-jerk to Tau. Its pretty damn clear only one model activates it for the unit, since it says Model multiple damn times in the paragraph. Theres no benefit to using it multiple times, and since it only works against 1 unit once per game its by no means broken. Even with the ITC ruling on Invisibility, Invis is still way way WAY more powerful.
If they had said it has additional effects depending on the number of ghostkeels, fine. As it stands, they are making us waste points because its not an optional upgrade, its included in the cost. Not an imperial rule and its just ever so slightly obscure so it doesnt happen in the xeno favor.
The void shield thing is also a knee-jerk. By their logic, nothing should be able to shoot OUT of the voidshield too if markerlights cant even get through. If a laser cant get through, pretty sure non-condensed light cant get through. They're moving blind!
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Basically they killed the Drone factory. The Ghostkeel ruling makes no sense and in every rules debate I have seen on the subject has completely gone the other way (once per Ghostkeel). I guess that was good and made the Marine players sweat so it had to be adjusted...Reece and crew are always announcing how they let the players vote in their rules FAQ....here is more evidence that is not the case and they simply knee jerk. There have been a lot of complaints of army bias in their FAQ and again this is more evidence of that. The timing is BS too. Reece if you read these post you need to make adjustments to the marines if you are going to keep nerfing Xenos. The interaction of all their war gear , rules(intermixing of different factions to get rules and war gear all into same units to make super Death Stars that are almost un-kill able and have every special rule in the book), and formations (woohoo 500 points of free OS vehicles...) is out of balance yet I don't see you doing anything with that. Initially I was happy to see players step up and try to get good FAQ's out but the more you change the game the less faith I have in you.
Problem with having the players do the FAQ is there are way more people that want to nerfbat everything they dont play so they dont have a challenge. Why i'll never understand, i intentionally bring weaker lists in non-tournament ruling games because its no fun to steamroll by turn 3.
There are considerably more imperial players than xenos, both because Marines are the poster child and also because theres what 8 codices that are considered Imperial? Even if a rule such as the Ghostkeel one isnt very obscured at all and a poll goes up, the bazillion imperial players will vote "NERF IT!" just because its not their rule.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 16:08:48
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
DirtyDeeds wrote: You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
Last?
Splitfire, target locks, supers, or any other rule that lets you fire at different targets is declared simultaneously. The only exception is anchored Stormsurge since he immediately fires again as a separate shooting action.
If the player targets a Ghostkeel "last" then hes cheating by not declaring everything before rolling.
An ork with an idea tends to end with a bang.
14000pts Big 'n Bad Orkz
6000pts Admech/Knights
7500pts Necron Goldboys
Other than the ghostkeel thing they all seem good.
The piranha re-arm thing puts it in line with how all of reserves works in 40k. i.e. you cannot enter and leave the table on the same turn. That it is not addressed in the rule for piranhas does not give permission to override the basic rule that you cannot leave and re-enter reserves on the same turn.
The clarification about getting more piranhas back is not a nerf, this was a contentious point and rules in favor of tau power. The issue about immobilized piranhas is also a good ruling, that prevents allowing tau players to make more piranhas than were in the starting unit.
The stormsurge not being removed on tank shock is not a nerf.
I find nothing about these unreasonable, and in fact many of them are good clarifications that could reduce arguments at tables. FWIW I also like the clarification about the librarian conclave for SMs.
When the Librarius Conclave uses the Empyric Channelling special rule, Librarians within 12” of the nominated Librarian may not cast psychic powers in that psychic phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 18:05:24
Yeah, firstly I believe Adepticon is using the same ruling, secondly this happened like 3 months ago.
Wrong on both accounts, Adepticon nerfed it much worse than ITC and if you look at the date of the most recent update, it happened 1-29-16, so that is hardly 3 months ago..
blaktoof wrote: Other than the ghostkeel thing they all seem good.
The piranha re-arm thing puts it in line with how all of reserves works in 40k. i.e. you cannot enter and leave the table on the same turn. That it is not addressed in the rule for piranhas does not give permission to override the basic rule that you cannot leave and re-enter reserves on the same turn.
You would be right if the piranhas moved off the edge like other things arriving from reserves. They're not moving off the board edge the same turn they arrive. They're using their special rule to exit the board. A flyer has a permission allowing it to enter ongoing reserves by moving off the table edge, a permission normal units do not have. It then has a restriction on that permission saying it can't happen on the same turn it arrives. FMC's work the same. Piranhas are not moving off the edge. They have no permission to move off the table. They have permission to enter ongoing reserves if the unit is within 6" of an edge. This isn't a FAQ change, it's an errata change. They're completely modifying the way the rules are written.
Rearm and Refuel:
If all of the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge at the end of their Movement phase, the unit can enter Ongoing Reserves. When it returns to play, it does so at full strength with any damage repaired and Drones and seeker missiles replaced
LValx wrote: I mean, I definitely think they are unnecessary (I don't play Tau, in fact, they are probably my most numerous opponent, so I should be rejoicing). But the worst part of the FAQ is that it was updated last Friday and did not get a front page article on Frontlinegaming. This is sort of sketchy, IMO, because there are people who have already left, or are just about to leave for LVO, meaning they have little to no time to react to this decision. Hopefully this wasn't purposefully done and was a simple oversight on FLG's part.
Should have definitely made some sort of headline, but this is also certainly better than wondering how it works at the event and finding out on the spot. It would either be unexpectedly great for Tau and bad for the opponent, or vice versa. It was necessary to input a ruling before the LVO, although clearly sooner and with a touch more publicity would have been nice
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DirtyDeeds wrote: You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
Though I feel that should be addressed, RAW it actually works such that if you shoot last, you're ok, since all of the weapon types on a super heavy/GMC are resolved completely and then the next weapon group begins. So you can declare target-by-target, kill any and all models, and then declare your next target. It's different than it used to be, and a decided buff to SHV/GMC. (This is BRB by the way, not a FLGFAQ)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 19:44:02
LValx wrote: I mean, I definitely think they are unnecessary (I don't play Tau, in fact, they are probably my most numerous opponent, so I should be rejoicing). But the worst part of the FAQ is that it was updated last Friday and did not get a front page article on Frontlinegaming. This is sort of sketchy, IMO, because there are people who have already left, or are just about to leave for LVO, meaning they have little to no time to react to this decision. Hopefully this wasn't purposefully done and was a simple oversight on FLG's part.
Should have definitely made some sort of headline, but this is also certainly better than wondering how it works at the event and finding out on the spot. It would either be unexpectedly great for Tau and bad for the opponent, or vice versa. It was necessary to input a ruling before the LVO, although clearly sooner and with a touch more publicity would have been nice
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DirtyDeeds wrote: You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
Though I feel that should be addressed, RAW it actually works such that if you shoot last, you're ok, since all of the weapon types on a super heavy/GMC are resolved completely and then the next weapon group begins. So you can declare target-by-target, kill any and all models, and then declare your next target. It's different than it used to be, and a decided buff to SHV/GMC. (This is BRB by the way, not a FLGFAQ)
Whether or not a ruling was necessary is contingent upon whether or not you thought the rules were clear or not. IMO both the Ghostkeel and the Piranha rules are exceedingly clear and in both cases were not ruled in favor of RAW, rather RAI, or just a straight up nerf (which Reece is pretty unwilling to admit to unless its Invis/rerolls/D weapons). That's a big issue I have with these "clarifications" I don't really believe they need clarification.
Vineheart01 wrote: Problem with having the players do the FAQ is there are way more people that want to nerfbat everything they dont play so they dont have a challenge. Why i'll never understand, i intentionally bring weaker lists in non-tournament ruling games because its no fun to steamroll by turn 3.
There are considerably more imperial players than xenos, both because Marines are the poster child and also because theres what 8 codices that are considered Imperial? Even if a rule such as the Ghostkeel one isnt very obscured at all and a poll goes up, the bazillion imperial players will vote "NERF IT!" just because its not their rule.
It will be put up for a vote (Reece has said this) so there's nothing to be worried about. The trend of "blind nerf xenos because I play Space Muhreens" literally has a negative correlation (meaning that it is exactly the opposite of reality). Consider Eldar Scatbikes 3:1 weapon ratio. Consider the ridiculously undercosted Ork Big Mek Stompa. Those are just two example rulings that would have been VERY easy for players to say "I don't want to play against that and/or don't think it's right/fair/fun" and nerf two xenos armies. And I mean, those are big deals on the tournament scene. But yet, they passed through the vote. The overall trend has in fact been to promote xenos and generally be permissive with rules interpretations, not the other way around.
LValx wrote: I mean, I definitely think they are unnecessary (I don't play Tau, in fact, they are probably my most numerous opponent, so I should be rejoicing). But the worst part of the FAQ is that it was updated last Friday and did not get a front page article on Frontlinegaming. This is sort of sketchy, IMO, because there are people who have already left, or are just about to leave for LVO, meaning they have little to no time to react to this decision. Hopefully this wasn't purposefully done and was a simple oversight on FLG's part.
Should have definitely made some sort of headline, but this is also certainly better than wondering how it works at the event and finding out on the spot. It would either be unexpectedly great for Tau and bad for the opponent, or vice versa. It was necessary to input a ruling before the LVO, although clearly sooner and with a touch more publicity would have been nice
Automatically Appended Next Post:
DirtyDeeds wrote: You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
Though I feel that should be addressed, RAW it actually works such that if you shoot last, you're ok, since all of the weapon types on a super heavy/GMC are resolved completely and then the next weapon group begins. So you can declare target-by-target, kill any and all models, and then declare your next target. It's different than it used to be, and a decided buff to SHV/GMC. (This is BRB by the way, not a FLGFAQ)
Whether or not a ruling was necessary is contingent upon whether or not you thought the rules were clear or not. IMO both the Ghostkeel and the Piranha rules are exceedingly clear and in both cases were not ruled in favor of RAW, rather RAI, or just a straight up nerf (which Reece is pretty unwilling to admit to unless its Invis/rerolls/D weapons). That's a big issue I have with these "clarifications" I don't really believe they need clarification.
You do realize that this very conversation (You saying I think it is clear one way and me saying I think it's ambiguous) is exactly why it's necessary, right? I do think that RAI it works one per Ghostkeel. I do think that RAW vaguely supports that. But if an opponent were to say, "that seems really good. Are you SURE it works that way based on reading the rule?", they should be able to have a Rules As Interpreted By Reece ruling for the event, so that two tables don't play it differently. In the future, it will be rules by popular vote once the next poll comes around.
In short, as it turns out, your opinion is not the way that all rules are interpreted. Even if YOU think it's clear, there are obviously a number of people who are less sure than you. That's why it's called a Frequently Asked Questions document.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 19:54:36
I would disagree with that ghostkeel ruling as well - I kind of thought that was the point of it.
And, what is the max ghostkeel squad? 3? So you'd be causing a total of 3 enemy units to snap fire over the course of the game? That doesn't seem unreasonably OP.
Slightly off topic, but I just noticed that the ITC says that psykers can't cast more powers than their psyker level. That's news to me - I thought that was a 6th ed rule.
That being said, it does seem fairly reasonable.
Is there any rule, ITC or otherwise, that limits how many witchfires a psyker can cast? Last edition, it was limited to 1, or 2 if you were a MC or ahriman, but I believe there's no such restriction this edition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2016/02/03 20:03:13
"Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment." Words to live by.
Kap'n Krump wrote: I would disagree with that ghostkeel ruling as well - I kind of thought that was the point of it.
And, what is the max ghostkeel squad? 3? So you'd be causing a total of 3 enemy units to snap fire over the course of the game? That doesn't seem unreasonably OP.
Slightly off topic, but I just noticed that the ITC says that psykers can't cast more powers than their psyker level. That's news to me - I thought that was a 6th ed rule.
That being said, it does seem fairly reasonable.
Is there any rule, ITC or otherwise, that limits how many witchfires a psyker can cast? Last edition, it was limited to 1, or 2 if you were a MC or ahriman, but I believe there's no such restriction this edition.
3 is the max. It's not crazy op for like 400-500 points. They just made a ruling for the event, and we will get to vote on it later.
That is an FAQ change. You're right that 7th ed poses no such restriction on ML and casting spells, though you could argue that the rules kind of say that there is one. Nor is there any limit on the number of witchfires that you can cast, except the one that a unit cannot cast the same witchfire twice, even if two psykers in the unit both know it.
I think the Ghostkeel rule is fairly clear in that a model uses the ability against a unit and you have to declare that the unit of Ghostkeels are making that action, not that the entire unit has to use up all its countermeasures at the same time. That being said these changes I assume are meant to set a rules standard for the LVO and a formal rules vote will take place for the beginning of the new ITC tournament year. While I don't agree with the ruling its meant to be a temporary ruling for the event.
Honestly though I don't get the near paranoia that people thing the ITC is intentionally nerfing Tau because of some perceived bias. The Hunter Contingent is a dumpster fire of rules writing which has really poorly worded rules that does not clear up the intended interaction with special rules sharing. They put it up for a vote as to how they wanted people to play it (because nobody could come to an agreed upon interpretation) and it was voted to limit sharing to markerlights. The community was also allowed to vote on limiting eldar jetbike special weapons which most people view as being OP and yet the community voted to allow them to all take them. The Ghostkeel rules while I don't agree with will almost certainly be put up for a proper vote and I'm almost positive the community will vote to allow it to work once per model and not per unit. The drone factory rules are just a mess and honestly I would care less about how the community voted on the issue.
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Vankraken wrote: I think the Ghostkeel rule is fairly clear in that a model uses the ability against a unit and you have to declare that the unit of Ghostkeels are making that action, not that the entire unit has to use up all its countermeasures at the same time. That being said these changes I assume are meant to set a rules standard for the LVO and a formal rules vote will take place for the beginning of the new ITC tournament year. While I don't agree with the ruling its meant to be a temporary ruling for the event.
Honestly though I don't get the near paranoia that people thing the ITC is intentionally nerfing Tau because of some perceived bias. The Hunter Contingent is a dumpster fire of rules writing which has really poorly worded rules that does not clear up the intended interaction with special rules sharing. They put it up for a vote as to how they wanted people to play it (because nobody could come to an agreed upon interpretation) and it was voted to limit sharing to markerlights. The community was also allowed to vote on limiting eldar jetbike special weapons which most people view as being OP and yet the community voted to allow them to all take them. The Ghostkeel rules while I don't agree with will almost certainly be put up for a proper vote and I'm almost positive the community will vote to allow it to work once per model and not per unit. The drone factory rules are just a mess and honestly I would care less about how the community voted on the issue.
NO! Irrational fear is irrational! Stop trying to spoil it with cool-headed sensible statements!
Let me list the new units and formations that tau got that was to give their codex a boast that every new codex deserves and next to it I will say if it was changed by ITC.
Tau Unit or Formation - ITC Ruling
Ghostkeel - Changed
Stormsurge - Changed
Hunter Contingent- Changed
Optimised Stealth Cadre - Changed by default
Riptide Wing - Not Changed
Piranha Formation - Changed
Drone Network - Not Changed
The conservative approach at its best! By the way the number 1 Tau player in the ITC painted a Tau Army for the LVO only to find out that the piranha formation is changed so he cant play that army!
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 04:09:41
The conservative approach at its best! By the way the number 1 Tau player in the ITC painted a Tau Army for the LVO only to find out that the piranha formation is changed so he cant play that army!
Do you have a source for that? I'm interested in reading more.
CKO I would think he can still play it but needs to adjust his tactics in order to be successful. Overall I agree with the disparity some are feeling with ITC rulings. I still don't understand their ruling on the hunter contingent. The rule seemed quite clear as written and its "overpoweredness " put it in line with all the space marine shenanigans I see allowing multiple faction rules benefit each other. I still strongly believe the decisions are knee jerk and biased.
I never even thought about markers and VSGs.... Crazy... I'm bringing a VSG. Wonder how it works on the stompa's "Power Fields?" Bwahahaha!!!! Fear me fish heads! The greenskins cometh!
CKO wrote: Let me list the new units and formations that tau got that was to give their codex a boast that every new codex deserves
It's so funny to read. Tau have been overpowered like hell and now they became plain and simple "I-win-button" and people still think they "deserve" to be boosted? OMG...
Bu the way, Invisibility nerf is much more severe but where are Eldar player crying about that? Are there anybody? Hey?
It appears that these rulings were made at the 11th hour, probably because the ITC guys were too busy beforehand preparing for the tournament. The timing could have been better, but the TO's probably felt it better to have some type of ruling, even though it was very last-minute, than to have no ruling at all and have to deal with every single time it came up in tournament play, which would probably have been plenty.
In any case, the Frontline guys did announce that they would have a poll afterwards so the attendees can vote on these types of changes. Any concerns you have, better let them know now if you want to see it perhaps come up on the polls:
It doesn't necessarily have to be a rules clarification. You can even petition for an outright rules change. But better let them know if you are concerned with any particular issue for future play.
DirtyDeeds wrote: You know what's funny? They still didn't decide what would happen if a super heavy of any type decides to shoot at a Ghostkeel last. What would happen in that case and the Ghostkeel uses his Holophotonic Counter Measures?
You declare all your shooting at once, even though you resolve them one at a time. So a SH would declare all of its targets. GK then announces it is using its HCM and now the SH must snap-shoot all of its guns.
The conservative approach at its best! By the way the number 1 Tau player in the ITC painted a Tau Army for the LVO only to find out that the piranha formation is changed so he cant play that army!
Where are you getting that info for the #1 Tau player? To my knowledge, he runs them with seeker missiles and has usually been moving them off the table every other turn. Basically, he has been playing the "nerfed" version of the Firestream long before it even got "nerfed" and has been doing very well with it.
Or are we talking about 2 completely different "Paul's" here?
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2016/02/04 10:17:30
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