Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Building up a battle demi-company at the moment and was wondering how do you guys outfit your tactical marines? I was figuring stick 2 ten man squads with the grav cannon and grav gun, combi-grav for the sgt's and the other two with melta guns.

Primarily drop podding these dudes in but I am working on getting some rhinos as well.

There are a ton of variables here.

I think full grav is nice if you have the points.
MM/M, c-melta sarge has done well for me.
HB/F, c-flamer is a good, low point option for dealing with light troops
ML/F is classic and not a bad jack-of-all-trades choice.

Plasma/Gravcannon + pod with Deathwind (points permitting)

Mark VII is popular, maybe throw a couple of mark VI to act as spotters. Mark VIII is popular among sergeants.

Gun answers seemed pretty much done already

I like missile launcher melta gun but then i combat squad. Im also wanting to build a full grav tac squad and a full melta squad (y)

5 man with grav cannon and combi plasma in a rhino is probably the best you can do for the points on a tactical squad. No point in going for a 10 man - just get another 5 man and another grav cannon and another rhino.

Putting them in in a pod is a good option too if you prefer alpha strike.

5 man sqiads are good if your planning to min max and abuse the power of the gladius otherwise 10 man squads are good

Never use 10 man squads. Ever. There's no reason to. Tac marines are terrible, and you should be buying the minimum amount to get a metal box to hide them in.

Only because the new Dex is better.

In early 7th, ObSec spam with Combat Squaded 10mans did nasty things. Sure, you could have more Obsec with 5mans and more pods/rhinos, but the additional Tacs were worth the difference.

That list isn't any weaker now. Its just that there are now a lot of better options out there, especially within the SM book.

Bharring wrote:
Only because the new Dex is better.

In early 7th, ObSec spam with Combat Squaded 10mans did nasty things. Sure, you could have more Obsec with 5mans and more pods/rhinos, but the additional Tacs were worth the difference.

That list isn't any weaker now. Its just that there are now a lot of better options out there, especially within the SM book.

Additional tacs are always a mistake.

I remember there was a very powerful 60-man tac list with Calgar last codex.

 koooaei wrote:
I remember there was a very powerful 60-man tac list with Calgar last codex.

Well. They basically took what made that list good and made that the standard ultra marines tactics. OFC this was before decurian and 7th eldar. Gladius is essentially the same strategy except with free razorbacks instead of drop pods you pay for and it has no Calgar tax. The calgar bomb did force you to use 10 mans though because you wanted to get the most value for your pod that you possibly could. You could run gladius as a drop pod alpha strike list BUT why would you do that when you can get 12 free razorbacks?

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 man with grav cannon and combi plasma in a rhino is probably the best you can do for the points on a tactical squad. No point in going for a 10 man - just get another 5 man and another grav cannon and another rhino.

Putting them in in a pod is a good option too if you prefer alpha strike.

Is the OP going to go with 2 demi-companies to get the free transports? If so, why not go with a razorback if you are going with a 5 man group?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
5 man sqiads are good if your planning to min max and abuse the power of the gladius otherwise 10 man squads are good

Why not do this? Is there any advantage to not abusing the free models?

 labmouse42 wrote:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
5 man sqiads are good if your planning to min max and abuse the power of the gladius otherwise 10 man squads are good

Why not do this? Is there any advantage to not abusing the free models?

Because you don’t like the play style? I’m not going to argue that it’s not a good idea to do. Free points, and a not insignificant number of them, are a good thing. But you must take a large number of basically naked, much maligned, tac marines to do so. MSU does have advantages, but if I wanted to play a “I’ve got more bodies then you have bullets” list, I’d go guard, or nids, or orks, or some other horde army.

Running a single demi-co, but with more robust squads feels more like a marine list. Which is what I want to play. Yes it’s not the most efficient option, and in a more competitive environment I’m just asking to be tabled, etc. But in my more casual meta, I have a lot of fun.

The other thing about “free” transports is purely practical. They may not cost any points, but you still need to shell out the cash for them, paint them, and drag them to the FLGS for a game. I’ve personally got all the warm bodies I need to field a full company for the free transports, but only own 3 pods, 2 rhinos and a razor. I could snag my pred if needed for another hull. But for me, it’s not worth locking myself into all the tax units just to get 6-7 free transports (and some of them non-optimal for the list)

(New player post)

When people talk about outfitting tactical squads with grav and plasma weapons, isn't it really only 1 marine from the squad getting the weapons upgrade? Does having one marine with a grav rifle, while the rest have bolters, really make a huge difference in firepower?

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 man with grav cannon and combi plasma in a rhino is probably the best you can do for the points on a tactical squad. No point in going for a 10 man - just get another 5 man and another grav cannon and another rhino.

Putting them in in a pod is a good option too if you prefer alpha strike.

Is the OP going to go with 2 demi-companies to get the free transports? If so, why not go with a razorback if you are going with a 5 man group?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Champion of Slaanesh wrote:
5 man sqiads are good if your planning to min max and abuse the power of the gladius otherwise 10 man squads are good

Why not do this? Is there any advantage to not abusing the free models?

I was just speaking in general about the unit. If you are getting a free razorback in gladius - almost no point in tacing anything but a single assault weapon on the squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

LoadToad wrote:
(New player post)

When people talk about outfitting tactical squads with grav and plasma weapons, isn't it really only 1 marine from the squad getting the weapons upgrade? Does having one marine with a grav rifle, while the rest have bolters, really make a huge difference in firepower?

Typically in an infantry unit - the heavy weapon/ special is the only weapon that matters. Tactical Marines are also among the worst infantry units in the game in terms of points efficiency. So you usually end up in a situation like this when 4 units in your 5 man squad are basically there to take hits for your big gun. Does the heavy weapon make a difference? Well - if it's a grav cannon/w grav amp - it makes a huge difference.

LoadToad wrote:
(New player post)

When people talk about outfitting tactical squads with grav and plasma weapons, isn't it really only 1 marine from the squad getting the weapons upgrade? Does having one marine with a grav rifle, while the rest have bolters, really make a huge difference in firepower?

Yes.

If you crunch the math, you need to shoot a whole lot of bolters to do anything significant. Just a rough example with a lot of bad rounding:
10 guys rapid fire, 20 shots. 2/3s hit, so about 14. Assuming shooting at other marines, half wound (7). They get their saves (2/3s) so the whole squad ends up doing 2 wound(ish).

Give them a plasma gun and a c-plas sarge.
Lower numbers make rounding a lot rougher.
4 shots, 2-3 hits. Wounding on a 2+, so almost all the hits are going to wound. With no save. So those two guys basically doubled the killing power for the squad. And they will do their damage vs. tougher targets, or targets with 2+ armor saves, both of which will drastically reduce the basic bolter.

Flamers similarly boost the squad. It’s basically a bolter that ignores cover an auto-hits everyone under the template. Often 5-7 guys. It’s worth the loss of long range fire for a massive boost in close.

Solid arguments can be made for leaving the heavy at home, but the specials are a solid investment, and a combi on the sarge can make your one good shot count.

Also, if you run the numbers, your one special weapon can often add up more unsaved wounds, on average, than all the bolters put together, except against the few units that bolters actually scare. (And for those guys, there are usually other ways to deal with them other than bolter spam)

It's almost never worth taking ten any more. The only heavy worth it on them is the grav cannon and there are better platforms/formations to get those.

Heavys are made even worse as a result of free transports. You can't afford to basically lose a turn of shooting with a heavy weapon when specials can do the same.

Plus the only imperial heavy weapon that is any good is the grav canmon.

 Nevelon wrote:
The other thing about “free” transports is purely practical. They may not cost any points, but you still need to shell out the cash for them, paint them, and drag them to the FLGS for a game. I’ve personally got all the warm bodies I need to field a full company for the free transports, but only own 3 pods, 2 rhinos and a razor. I could snag my pred if needed for another hull. But for me, it’s not worth locking myself into all the tax units just to get 6-7 free transports (and some of them non-optimal for the list)

Those are all great reasons, thanks for the input.

I did some number-crunching. Special weapons are not always advised in certain situations. Against MEQ with a 4+ Cover save, there is a very minor difference of 0.11W, at the cost of two bodies in the squad. Keep in mind the trade-offs with Combi-Weapons and issues with Focused Witchfire and Precision Shot.

7x Bolters at 24": 7(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 0.77

2x Plasma at 24": 2(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 0.55
3x Bolters at 24": 3(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 0.33

If we now go to short range, we find Plasma has a 0.22W edge, Grav is equal, Melta is 0.33W behind, and we have 2 less members in the squad.

7x RF Bolters at 9": 14(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 1.55

2x Grav at 9" (unit moved): 4(2/3)(2/3)(1/2) = 0.88
2x Plasma at 9": 4(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 1.11
2x Melta at 9": 2(2/3)(5/6)(1/2) = 0.55
3x RF Bolters at 9": 6(2/3)(1/2)(1/3) = 0.66

So I guess it really comes down to the rest of your army, your board, and the types of enemy units. If you look at Steve Sisk's list (final 4 in LVO) you get a good idea of the fact there isn't one clearly superior choice across all situations. He had a ton of Razorback with various heavy weapons (Lascannons, Assault Cannons, Heavy Bolters, Las/Plas, 1x Hvy Flamer) to back up his dismounts.

https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/02/07/lvo-40k-championships-day-3-live-blog/

2x Tacs w/Plasma Gun
2x Tacs w/Melta
1x Tacs w/Flamer
1x Tacs w/Heavy Bolter
2x Assault Marines w/2x Flamer
2x Devastator w/1x Grav-Cannon
1x Command Squad, no special weapons
1x Command Squad w/5x Meltaguns and Ignore Cover

Martel732 wrote:
Plus the only imperial heavy weapon that is any good is the grav canmon.

Lascannon is nice because of range, but that's all it really has going for it.

Grav-Cannon has good damage output AND can be used on the move (to an extent).

A note on melta:

It’s not a huge investment of points to gear a tac squad up full melta. And it lets you threaten things that your bolters can’t touch; armor. While to reliably kill a tank you need more then 3 shots, with a few buffs (doctrines work well) you have a reasonable shot. This makes your tac squad a lot more flexible.

Grav can work to strip HPs off, but costs a lot more.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Plus the only imperial heavy weapon that is any good is the grav canmon.

Lascannon is nice because of range, but that's all it really has going for it.

Grav-Cannon has good damage output AND can be used on the move (to an extent).

Las cannons suffers from there are better platforms take them on. A tac squad with a las cannon is 85 points for one shot while the other four mooks just stand there. For 115 I can get a pred with two cannons and an AC turrent or a Dreadnought with a twin linked cannon.

Steve Sisk White Scars Gladius Strike Force

Battle Company

Kor’sarro Khan 125

Chaplain 115 (auspex, hunter’s eye)

Command Squad, Meltagun x5, Razorback (Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor) 155

Command Squad, Razorback (Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 95

Tactical Squad I, Plasma Gun, Razorback I (Lascannon with Twin-linked Plasma Gun) 105

Tactical Squad II, Flamer, Razorback II (Twin-linked lascannon) 105

Tactical Squad III, Meltagun, Razorback III (Lascannon and Twin-linked Plasma Gun) 110

Tactical Squad IV, Plasma Gun, Razorback IV (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon) 115

Tactical Squad V, Meltagun, Razorback V (Twin-linked Assault Cannon) 110

Tactical Squad VI, Heavy Bolter, Razorback VI (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon) 100

Assault Squad VII, Flamer x2, Razorback VII (Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 85

Assault Squad VIII, Flamer x2, Razorback VIII (Twin-Linked heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 85

Devastator Squad IX, Grav-Cannon x1, Razorback IX (Twin-Linked Lascannon) 125

Devastator Squad X, Grav-Cannon x1, Razorback X (Twin-Linked Lascannon) 125

I am curious why he took some of the choices he did, like all the dozer blades, and giving a TAC squad a HB.
Given where he is standing in LVO, obliviously he knows his stuff.

 labmouse42 wrote:
Steve Sisk White Scars Gladius Strike Force

Battle Company

Kor’sarro Khan 125

Chaplain 115 (auspex, hunter’s eye)

Command Squad, Meltagun x5, Razorback (Twin-linked Heavy Flamer, Dozer Blade, Extra Armor) 155

Command Squad, Razorback (Twin-linked Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 95

Tactical Squad I, Plasma Gun, Razorback I (Lascannon with Twin-linked Plasma Gun) 105

Tactical Squad II, Flamer, Razorback II (Twin-linked lascannon) 105

Tactical Squad III, Meltagun, Razorback III (Lascannon and Twin-linked Plasma Gun) 110

Tactical Squad IV, Plasma Gun, Razorback IV (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon) 115

Tactical Squad V, Meltagun, Razorback V (Twin-linked Assault Cannon) 110

Tactical Squad VI, Heavy Bolter, Razorback VI (Twin-Linked Assault Cannon) 100

Assault Squad VII, Flamer x2, Razorback VII (Twin-Linked Heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 85

Assault Squad VIII, Flamer x2, Razorback VIII (Twin-Linked heavy Bolter, Dozer Blade) 85

Devastator Squad IX, Grav-Cannon x1, Razorback IX (Twin-Linked Lascannon) 125

Devastator Squad X, Grav-Cannon x1, Razorback X (Twin-Linked Lascannon) 125

I am curious why he took some of the choices he did, like all the dozer blades, and giving a TAC squad a HB.
Given where he is standing in LVO, obliviously he knows his stuff.

This list is not super optimized. Not in the least - I know it won the torny but a lot of his choices are not the best. The player was obviously really lucky and also really skilled at the same time. This isn't the best list though. Heavy bolter on a marine? WTF? Grav cannons mounted in the TLLC razors? Plus...Ultra marines tactics work better with this army by far. Plus if you take away some of the useless options like dozer blades and heavy bolters on marines you could squeeze another grav cannon easy.

The dozer Blades are okay because the vehicles weren't paid for in the first place.

I'm assuming he went with Khan/Scars to get scout for all transports. Being able move everyone around is powerful.