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CKO wrote: Jy so a whitescar gladius strike force with gravcannons can only kill one riptide a turn, are you being realistic!
Also if they bubble wrap a riptide with drones you shoot the drones kill 2-3 of them, charge both the riptide and the drone unit and force a ld 5-6 test on a riptide because you kill 3-4 drones in cc. As a speed bump they are risky with tau.
I believe I mentioned an army with average to above-average firepower. The White Scars Battle Company isn't such an army. Rather, it is an extreme alpha-strike army. Against such a list (and against other very strong alpha-strike armies), you need to vary your tactics. Against such an army that is going first, you might want to consider putting all of your riptides in reserves and deploying smaller units that can hide behind BLOS terrain. It really depends.
With regards to bubble-wrapping, you've got to do it in layers. In my games, by the time my WK's were close enough to assault, my opponent's main offensive units were wrapped in drones 2-3 units deep. It is not as easy to deal with those, especially when you are running more of an assault Eldar army (5 WK's....duh!) rather than a shooty one.
Also this illusion you are creating about not hurting the piranhas is false! If you have interceptor you can use it on the drones that the piranhas created, what happens when a burstide uses interceptor on a 6 man drone unit? So you cant hurt the piranhas but they have contributed nothing if you kill the drones and the piranhas left the field.
Sorry, but I didn't play Tau vs Tau. I don't have Interceptor. But even if I was running Tau with Interceptor, targeting the drones means that I will lose out on my shooting next turn! I'd rather shoot on my turn and use my Markerlights than intercept on his turn without the aid of Markerlights.
You didn't have cheap scatter lasers, death spinners, or ally venoms to kill enough drones so that you could charge? You have a 12 movement combine with your other shooting you should be able to charge, I don't know how that is possible sounds like you were out played.
The point is a lot of people say you cant even use interceptor against it but you can use interceptor against the drones and the units will most likely die.
There's a big difference in the demon summoning comparison to the drone creation one imo. With demon summoning, you're not guaranteed created units since you can fail the cast and the opponent can roll to deny the witch. Secondly, you can kill the demon princes or other units that are summoning demons. With the drone factory, the spawns are guaranteed and you are unable to kill the piranhas if they're allowed to enter and leave in the same turn. It's not fun having something in the game that you outright cannot interact with or stop, and I say that as a player with a Tau army.
At this point I am not going to re-write something I have already said, I understand that most people are not reading the article so I will copy and paste, so tiring!
If they are leaving the field the same turn they come on than they are losing out on a lot also! Seeker missiles, burst cannons, objective grabbing are all things they lose if they leave the turn they come on, if a player where to play the formation they will realize they rather the piranhas leave than stay!
You seem to think we aren't reading the article, but I seem to think you aren't reading the responses.
I know what you have proposed as a change, but people in this thread are saying that the formation was not OP and was not given adequate testing time before changes were made so why should we not respond to problems with the RAW?
I get that you think the formation is being wasted if they don't also load up on missiles so they can fire those off every other turn, but I don't think that's the big appeal of the formation or the broken part of it. I think a unit is broken if an opponent cannot interact with it in any way. Invisibility is bad enough because it makes a unit practically unkillable, but letting the piranhas enter and leave in the same turn makes them completely unkillable. Combo the formation with the drone one and now they have improved bs and interceptor as well making them even deadlier. I don't care that they lose missiles and burst cannons from the piranhas if they're unkillable.
Well jy2, in regard to the list you posted, it's obvious weakness is the drone network. It's small, fragile, and without it both the riptide wing and the firestorm lose much strength. (the retaliation does a bit too) keeping two in reserves will help, but will mean you have very little markers to work with.
So, an army with an artillery battery of sorts that can get to the marker drones even behind Los blockers will make a good start against it. TFC, heavy mortars, earthshakers, even whirlwind can do well. Don't really know non imperial/chaos artillery, but I a assume they got some.
Deepstrike elements could do it too, but multi riptide interception makes it hard without invul or counter Los avoidance. Lotd might be useful for this. Tau naturally could pull it off too, termies are technically possible. Dreadknight with flamer and shunt will do quick work here.
The list not having its own indirect limits handling any hidden artillery to the retaliation cadre, so if you can give it a decent wrap, or DS interference, it will force the wing to press towards it, giving you the chance to drop on them.
Next, high AV. The list has nearly nothing to handle high AV. 13 is rough, 14 nigh untouchable. Russes will be tough to handle though they are a bit lacking these days, land raiders might as well be immortals, so a raider containing assault unit with some power fists and/or axes could take control of positions in important passages or objectives. Imp Knights will do well, preferably ones with gun focus over melee focus, to better clear off any drone blockers.
Also, as every tau list - psykers, especially ld targeting attacks, will do wonders. Harlequins, DA, anyone that can spam telepathy - all got weapons here. The early presence is mostly the wing alone, and the wing is small enough to be broken. Even removing one HBCtide greatly reduces the benefits, as the iontide will have to come closer to keep the wing buffs running. And the HBCtide is rendered harmless without them.
And naturally, objective holding is not this list's virtue. So "tough it out" armies like decurion, renegade hordes, etc will stand a fighting chance at a "lose battle, win war" mentality of holding out objectives and enduring.
That's all I can say off the top of my head here.
Get ld targeting psykers, some indirect fire, and high AV if you can - and victory should be within grasp.
For hilarious results, monolith spam and Tvault. (said hilarious, not necessarily practical)
It's a tough, strong list. Probably even top table worthy.
But not overpowered. It can be fought and beaten.
I think part of the problem here is that some people, on both sides, see the argument as "OP or useless", some tau argue for useless not making it any better.
The firestorm is strong, very strong. But not overpowered. At least not to a level justifying a preemptive nerf.
It should have been allowed, letting the top players take a crack at, and would it indeed produce dominating results beyond the rest of the stuff running around - only then nerf it.
(as for your wraithknights dual cannons getting preemptive nerf, I said that too is a mistake in my eyes, as D isn't even relevant against most things and it only serves to discourage super units, while not effecting mook armies at all, and super units NEED to have something to discourage using them as your go to answer to everything.)
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
twinlinked BS 2 is statistically bs 4 but actually its better because you are twice as likely to hit when you shoot at a flier or in over watch. Their shooting is great. Plus pinning. Keep telling me how bad drones are when in fact they are one of the best infantry shooters in the game.
Yeah its not statistically BS4. Check the math again. 2/6 first shots hit then (1/3 chance)*4 shots for the misses = total of 3.333/6
Automatically Appended Next Post:
coblen wrote: man I wish I could choose to just put 600 points of stuff into ongoing reserve. Its super common to see both sides putting most of there army in reserve. With the piranhas you would get to choose what turn you actually wanted them instead of leaving it up to chance, and they would generate extra drones for every turn you held off. Thats sweet.
But really you're not putting 600 points in reserve. The piranhas without the drones are not 600 points. If you felt like I actually valued having the piranhas shoot instead of bring in more drones then that is still an option, and it wouldn't surprise me if you end up choosing that against some armies, but always having the choice to deny your opponent is strong, and getting rewarded with a ton of drones is amazing.
Too bad piranhas have 18" range with their guns so that isn't an option if you ever want them to go back into reserves again for the rest of the game
Thanks for correcting me. It's been years since i took statistics and I made a rookie mistake. This prompted me for a good refresher for dice odds. Best way to figure chance to hit is chance of miss dice 1 4/6 x chance of miss dice 2 4/6 - 1. So 4/6 x 4/6 = 44.44% = 100% - 44.44% = 55.5%. So it's about 10% worse odds. Vs fliers and snap shooting it is much better though.
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
You didn't have cheap scatter lasers, death spinners, or ally venoms to kill enough drones so that you could charge? You have a 12 movement combine with your other shooting you should be able to charge, I don't know how that is possible sounds like you were out played.
The point is a lot of people say you cant even use interceptor against it but you can use interceptor against the drones and the units will most likely die.
Not enough apparently, especially when your list is centered on WK's as your primary focus for offense over a shooty Eldar build.
I was able to charge and kill 2 riptides but the Tau age-old strategy of screening, retreating and finally bubble-wrapping made it difficult to pull off more assaults, especially as I am losing 1 WK a turn (and taking wounds on the other) from all that shooting. But I don't expect you to understand that as I suspect this is all theoryhammer on your part without actual experience.
And I don't know why you keep on insisting on using Interceptor on the drones, when 9 out of 10 armies DON'T HAVE INTERCEPTOR! So excuse me if I don't want to run Tau against Tau.
You didn't have cheap scatter lasers, death spinners, or ally venoms to kill enough drones so that you could charge? You have a 12 movement combine with your other shooting you should be able to charge, I don't know how that is possible sounds like you were out played.
The point is a lot of people say you cant even use interceptor against it but you can use interceptor against the drones and the units will most likely die.
Not enough apparently, especially when your list is centered on WK's as your primary focus for offense over a shooty Eldar build.
I was able to charge and kill 2 riptides but the Tau age-old strategy of screening, retreating and finally bubble-wrapping made it difficult to pull off more assaults, especially as I am losing 1 WK a turn (and taking wounds on the other) from all that shooting. But I don't expect you to understand that as I suspect this is all theoryhammer on your part without actual experience.
And I don't know why you keep on insisting on using Interceptor on the drones, when 9 out of 10 armies DON'T HAVE INTERCEPTOR! So excuse me if I don't want to run Tau against Tau.
It's okay - you can use your quality shots to shoot his free fodder units! Great idea!
If we fail to anticipate the unforeseen or expect the unexpected in a universe of infinite possibilities, we may find ourselves at the mercy of anyone or anything that cannot be programmed, categorized or easily referenced.
- Fox Mulder
Well jy2, in regard to the list you posted, it's obvious weakness is the drone network. It's small, fragile, and without it both the riptide wing and the firestorm lose much strength. (the retaliation does a bit too) keeping two in reserves will help, but will mean you have very little markers to work with.
So, an army with an artillery battery of sorts that can get to the marker drones even behind Los blockers will make a good start against it. TFC, heavy mortars, earthshakers, even whirlwind can do well. Don't really know non imperial/chaos artillery, but I a assume they got some.
Deepstrike elements could do it too, but multi riptide interception makes it hard without invul or counter Los avoidance. Lotd might be useful for this. Tau naturally could pull it off too, termies are technically possible. Dreadknight with flamer and shunt will do quick work here.
The list not having its own indirect limits handling any hidden artillery to the retaliation cadre, so if you can give it a decent wrap, or DS interference, it will force the wing to press towards it, giving you the chance to drop on them.
Next, high AV. The list has nearly nothing to handle high AV. 13 is rough, 14 nigh untouchable. Russes will be tough to handle though they are a bit lacking these days, land raiders might as well be immortals, so a raider containing assault unit with some power fists and/or axes could take control of positions in important passages or objectives. Imp Knights will do well, preferably ones with gun focus over melee focus, to better clear off any drone blockers.
Also, as every tau list - psykers, especially ld targeting attacks, will do wonders. Harlequins, DA, anyone that can spam telepathy - all got weapons here. The early presence is mostly the wing alone, and the wing is small enough to be broken. Even removing one HBCtide greatly reduces the benefits, as the iontide will have to come closer to keep the wing buffs running. And the HBCtide is rendered harmless without them.
And naturally, objective holding is not this list's virtue. So "tough it out" armies like decurion, renegade hordes, etc will stand a fighting chance at a "lose battle, win war" mentality of holding out objectives and enduring.
That's all I can say off the top of my head here.
Get ld targeting psykers, some indirect fire, and high AV if you can - and victory should be within grasp.
For hilarious results, monolith spam and Tvault. (said hilarious, not necessarily practical)
It's a tough, strong list. Probably even top table worthy.
But not overpowered. It can be fought and beaten.
I think part of the problem here is that some people, on both sides, see the argument as "OP or useless", some tau argue for useless not making it any better.
The firestorm is strong, very strong. But not overpowered. At least not to a level justifying a preemptive nerf.
It should have been allowed, letting the top players take a crack at, and would it indeed produce dominating results beyond the rest of the stuff running around - only then nerf it.
(as for your wraithknights dual cannons getting preemptive nerf, I said that too is a mistake in my eyes, as D isn't even relevant against most things and it only serves to discourage super units, while not effecting mook armies at all, and super units NEED to have something to discourage using them as your go to answer to everything.)
Keep in mind that I am not saying a Tau army with the Firestream formation is unbeatable. However, it is very powerful and difficult to play against, especially for the less experienced players. To these players, it just isn't fun for them to play against as there is nothing they can do to halt the production of free units.
Yes, marker drones is definitely a weak spot of the list. But that problem can be mitigated somewhat with adequate terrain (i.e. the availability of some BLOS terrain) from which they can hide behind.
Against a barrage-heavy build like TFC, you would try to stack them on multiple levels of ruins. But that really depends on whether regular shooting is more deadly or barrage-shooting from the opponent. If the regular shooting is more deadly, I'd still hide them behind BLOS terrain and just spread them out instead.
BTW, in the game against my Tyranids, my Tau opponent got Stealth/Move Through Cover (Ruins) as his Warlord trait so his marker drones were going-to-ground in ruins for 2+ cover, since they are already snap-shooting at flyers anyways.
My opponent ran fusions on all his riptides, as well as 1 fusion suit. Moreover, nova-charged Ion and HBC's can be used to deal with AV14 if necessary. That is adequate against heavy armor in all but the most extreme cases. Usually, the top tournament lists do not run heavy armor, with the exception of Imperial Knight armies. But against those, movement blocking works just as well as high-powered AT.
Psychic powers can be rough against the Tau, but Tau have ways to mitigate that as well. Nova-charging for the 3++ on the tides can help against LD-based attacks like Psychic Shriek. As for other LD-based attacks, well, the Tau will just have to take their chances and hope that they succeed. Ironically, in my games against Tau, I usually don't have a lot of success with powers such as Horrify, Psychic Scream and Psychic Shriek, but that is just in my case.
Finally, with regards to objective-holding, yeah, that is an exploitable weakness of Tau. Always was. Always will be. However, my list has tools for dealing with objectives as well. 1) Deepstriking the Retaliation Cadre offers you more flexibility in going after objectives. 2) Weight-of-fire from the Drone Factory gives you the firepower to deal with "tough it out" armies. Imagine my surprise to see the VoF (volume-of-fire) take down 30 T8 Wounds w/FNP (and with 1 unit Invisible most of the time).
BTW, in the game against my Tyranids, my Tau opponent got Stealth/Move Through Cover (Ruins) as his Warlord trait so his marker drones were going-to-ground in ruins for 2+ cover, since they are already snap-shooting at flyers anyways.
Was the marker drones from a drone net? If they were, then they could have gotten a 2+ cover save in the open with the stealth warlord trait.
If all the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge
Not RAW but it seems that the author of the rule used the word 'surviving' with the intent that the unit had to weather a round of shooting first.
I think ITC ruled correctly that they can't leave the turn they enter.
Not true. It simply means that you don't need every model still in the squad to leave the board. If they hadn't put the word "surviving" in the rule, then there would be people arguing that you need every model alive in order to leave
If all the surviving models from a unit in this Formation are within 6" of a table edge
Not RAW but it seems that the author of the rule used the word 'surviving' with the intent that the unit had to weather a round of shooting first.
I think ITC ruled correctly that they can't leave the turn they enter.
Not true. It simply means that you don't need every model still in the squad to leave the board. If they hadn't put the word "surviving" in the rule, then there would be people arguing that you need every model alive in order to leave
That's why I said it wasn't RAW - but even what you are saying about surviving models still makes it sound like they were supposed to survive a round of shooting.
BTW, in the game against my Tyranids, my Tau opponent got Stealth/Move Through Cover (Ruins) as his Warlord trait so his marker drones were going-to-ground in ruins for 2+ cover, since they are already snap-shooting at flyers anyways.
Was the marker drones from a drone net? If they were, then they could have gotten a 2+ cover save in the open with the stealth warlord trait.
Jink = 4+
Go to ground = 3+
Stealth = 2+
Yes they were. The Warlord trait only gives them Stealth if they are in or obscured by Ruins.
Well jy2, in regard to the list you posted, it's obvious weakness is the drone network. It's small, fragile, and without it both the riptide wing and the firestorm lose much strength. (the retaliation does a bit too) keeping two in reserves will help, but will mean you have very little markers to work with.
So, an army with an artillery battery of sorts that can get to the marker drones even behind Los blockers will make a good start against it. TFC, heavy mortars, earthshakers, even whirlwind can do well. Don't really know non imperial/chaos artillery, but I a assume they got some.
Deepstrike elements could do it too, but multi riptide interception makes it hard without invul or counter Los avoidance. Lotd might be useful for this. Tau naturally could pull it off too, termies are technically possible. Dreadknight with flamer and shunt will do quick work here.
The list not having its own indirect limits handling any hidden artillery to the retaliation cadre, so if you can give it a decent wrap, or DS interference, it will force the wing to press towards it, giving you the chance to drop on them.
Next, high AV. The list has nearly nothing to handle high AV. 13 is rough, 14 nigh untouchable. Russes will be tough to handle though they are a bit lacking these days, land raiders might as well be immortals, so a raider containing assault unit with some power fists and/or axes could take control of positions in important passages or objectives. Imp Knights will do well, preferably ones with gun focus over melee focus, to better clear off any drone blockers.
Also, as every tau list - psykers, especially ld targeting attacks, will do wonders. Harlequins, DA, anyone that can spam telepathy - all got weapons here. The early presence is mostly the wing alone, and the wing is small enough to be broken. Even removing one HBCtide greatly reduces the benefits, as the iontide will have to come closer to keep the wing buffs running. And the HBCtide is rendered harmless without them.
And naturally, objective holding is not this list's virtue. So "tough it out" armies like decurion, renegade hordes, etc will stand a fighting chance at a "lose battle, win war" mentality of holding out objectives and enduring.
That's all I can say off the top of my head here.
Get ld targeting psykers, some indirect fire, and high AV if you can - and victory should be within grasp.
For hilarious results, monolith spam and Tvault. (said hilarious, not necessarily practical)
It's a tough, strong list. Probably even top table worthy.
But not overpowered. It can be fought and beaten.
I think part of the problem here is that some people, on both sides, see the argument as "OP or useless", some tau argue for useless not making it any better.
The firestorm is strong, very strong. But not overpowered. At least not to a level justifying a preemptive nerf.
It should have been allowed, letting the top players take a crack at, and would it indeed produce dominating results beyond the rest of the stuff running around - only then nerf it.
(as for your wraithknights dual cannons getting preemptive nerf, I said that too is a mistake in my eyes, as D isn't even relevant against most things and it only serves to discourage super units, while not effecting mook armies at all, and super units NEED to have something to discourage using them as your go to answer to everything.)
Keep in mind that I am not saying a Tau army with the Firestream formation is unbeatable. However, it is very powerful and difficult to play against, especially for the less experienced players. To these players, it just isn't fun for them to play against as there is nothing they can do to halt the production of free units.
Yes, marker drones is definitely a weak spot of the list. But that problem can be mitigated somewhat with adequate terrain (i.e. the availability of some BLOS terrain) from which they can hide behind.
Against a barrage-heavy build like TFC, you would try to stack them on multiple levels of ruins. But that really depends on whether regular shooting is more deadly or barrage-shooting from the opponent. If the regular shooting is more deadly, I'd still hide them behind BLOS terrain and just spread them out instead.
BTW, in the game against my Tyranids, my Tau opponent got Stealth/Move Through Cover (Ruins) as his Warlord trait so his marker drones were going-to-ground in ruins for 2+ cover, since they are already snap-shooting at flyers anyways.
My opponent ran fusions on all his riptides, as well as 1 fusion suit. Moreover, nova-charged Ion and HBC's can be used to deal with AV14 if necessary. That is adequate against heavy armor in all but the most extreme cases. Usually, the top tournament lists do not run heavy armor, with the exception of Imperial Knight armies. But against those, movement blocking works just as well as high-powered AT.
Psychic powers can be rough against the Tau, but Tau have ways to mitigate that as well. Nova-charging for the 3++ on the tides can help against LD-based attacks like Psychic Shriek. As for other LD-based attacks, well, the Tau will just have to take their chances and hope that they succeed. Ironically, in my games against Tau, I usually don't have a lot of success with powers such as Horrify, Psychic Scream and Psychic Shriek, but that is just in my case.
Finally, with regards to objective-holding, yeah, that is an exploitable weakness of Tau. Always was. Always will be. However, my list has tools for dealing with objectives as well. 1) Deepstriking the Retaliation Cadre offers you more flexibility in going after objectives. 2) Weight-of-fire from the Drone Factory gives you the firepower to deal with "tough it out" armies. Imagine my surprise to see the VoF (volume-of-fire) take down 30 T8 Wounds w/FNP (and with 1 unit Invisible most of the time).
Many things are frustrating to newer players. until the 6th edition codex came out and I got access to interceptor upgrade on suits I found drop pods to be infuriating (still don't see how any non-tau army that does not pack his own pods don't find it absurd)
Frustrating =/=op. poor design, but not a justification for a nerf.
Multi level ruins are not actually providing any defense against barrage these days, you hit ALL floors, not just one. (terrifying thought, isn't it?) multi level ruins are deathtraps against blasts. spreading out behind BLOS terrain is not always easy, and might interfere with your own targeting next turn if the opponent plays well. at the very least, you enter the realm of plays and counterplays here.
Yes, NOVA riptides CAN harm AV14, but not reliably, and it requires to dedicate the NOVA charges towards it, giving chances of things to screw up (either by NOVA fails, or getting hot) and even then-they are not very apt at it. and a riptide that comes into fusion range also comes into assault ranges. plays and counterplays.
Riptides that NOVA up 3++ for defense against psychic attacks are still running the risk of failing and hurting themselves-that's when you hit them. just like invisibility fails and grimore fails. this just has more individual units pulling the test, so while a failure is less horrid, and happens less often thanks to wing, there are actually more failures bound to happen than you'd expect. (3 riptides under the wing buff trying to nova, 30% at least one of them fails-that's they one you hammer.)
And as long they charge shields-they don't charge anything else. so their firepower is negligible (at least from the HBCtides)
As for why the wraithknights fell to the wight of fire-they are honestly a very bad spam pick against anything hordes. they got super powerful shots, but a few of them-and drones really don't require any meaningful firepower. had that list pack more "spam shots" itself (or any anti-horde), it would fare much better, as drones could be cleared away when nececery. although wraithknights are OP, its a horrible matchup.
Also, invisibility is amusingly less impressive the more big targets you got, as even if you invis something-I still got another big target to gun down. virtually you limited my choices, but added zero defenses.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
.....Bay Area Open GT 2013 - Best Tyranids 
.....LVO GT 2014 Team Tournament - Best Generals
2500 
2200 
